Didier Renard
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Saint-Louis
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We had this combo in one advanced game this week-end and it looks like a game breaker to me.
With a couple of temples, Michelangelo would score 8 (level 1) or 12 (level 2) culture points per turn. If you add hanging gardens and a theater or two, it could easily score 20 culture points per turn. This is simply too much! It transforms an already powerful card into a killer one.
I am actually not convinced the x2 rule of the basilica applies to Michelangelo. I guess it is a matter of interpretation but mine was that the basilica power applies only to the happiness level.
Could someone clarify this ?
 
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Olivier REIX
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Grenoble
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The problem imho is Michelangelo alone, at least in the advanced game.

You can expect to get 3-5 Culture Point (CP) from him easyly.

Compare to other leaders available :

* with Bach it is hard to gt more that 2-3 CP,

* with James Cook : 2-4 CP

* with Shakespeare you can expect a really good rate 3-6, maybe, it is powerfull.

But the difference is that Michelangelo comes at Age I (others are Age II) and, in a Advanced game, can be used during all the games if he appears early, creating a huge bonus.

Of course there are ways to remove active leaders but you are not sure to get them :
* one event card that removes leaders from previous Ages (Ravages of Time, not sure of the name ?)
* the Assassinate agression cards

My throught at the moment are (after 3 plays) :

* I am not sure Michelangelo is a "problem" when playing the Full Game as he will disapear at the end of Age II and other "cultural" leaders are almost as powerfull (Shakespeare in particular),
* In the advanced game, it really looks unbalanced and probably needs a modification to reduce his impact to somrthing like 3 CP maximum.

Your thoughts ?
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Andy Daglish
United Kingdom
Cheadle
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boulou wrote:
could easily score 20 culture points per turn. This is simply too much!


We played for the first time today, using all the sensible rules. I used Bach to build Opera and Journalism, to go with Printing, and then brought in Shakespeare to run these along with Movies. This was pulling in the majority of 23 points a turn, but the problem was upgrading Iron and Irrigation, the consequence being no Wonders built, and eventually this caused me to come third and last by a few points. Those turn III events played out at the end would seem to determine who wins.

 
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Didier Renard
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ReiXou wrote:

Your thoughts ?


I haven't played the full game yet (cannot wait to try it! shake ) but your analysis seems good, Olivier. I think I will ignore the effect of the basilica on Michelangelo in my future advanced games but will play it as intended in my full games. Not sure if Michelangelo needs some adjustment in the advanced game, though. It certainly is one of the best age 1 leaders but it's hard to tell after a few games only.
 
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Michael Wißner
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Augsburg
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aforandy wrote:
boulou wrote:
could easily score 20 culture points per turn. This is simply too much!


We played for the first time today, using all the sensible rules. I used Bach to build Opera and Journalism, to go with Printing, and then brought in Shakespeare to run these along with Movies. This was pulling in the majority of 23 points a turn, but the problem was upgrading Iron and Irrigation, the consequence being no Wonders built, and eventually this caused me to come third and last by a few points. Those turn III events played out at the end would seem to determine who wins.



Perhaps this is offtopic, but how did you manage to bring in both Bach and Shakespeare? Was Bach assasinated? IIRC, you cannot substitute a leader with one from the same age...
 
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Huzonfirst
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Manassas
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Quote:
Perhaps this is offtopic, but how did you manage to bring in both Bach and Shakespeare? Was Bach assasinated? IIRC, you cannot substitute a leader with one from the same age...

Not only that, you can't even choose more than one leader from each age. So once Bach was taken, ol' Shakespeare would be off limits. I don't know if the rules for assassination relax this requirement.
 
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Huzonfirst
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Quote:
The problem imho is Michelangelo alone, at least in the advanced game.

You can expect to get 3-5 Culture Point (CP) from him easyly.

Compare to other leaders available :

* with Bach it is hard to gt more that 2-3 CP,

* with James Cook : 2-4 CP

* with Shakespeare you can expect a really good rate 3-6, maybe, it is powerful.

I don't have any first hand experience with Bach or Shakespeare, Olivier, but I can attest to the power of Michelangelo--he helped me win my last game (full version) and as you say, he was giving me 5 extra CP each turn. But the leaders you mention provide more than just CPs. Cook's main ability is to help you win colonies and it can be extremely powerful. I believe Bach and Shakespeare help you build theaters (or something like that). Michelangelo's other ability (one less action to choose a wonder) is a pretty good one, but probably not as significant as the other ones. So I don't really think he's all that unbalanced, at least not in the Full game.

Quote:
But the difference is that Michelangelo comes at Age I (others are Age II) and, in a Advanced game, can be used during all the games if he appears early, creating a huge bonus.

This is a good point. I'm usually not in such a hurry to scrap my Ancient leader (they often give you lots of bennies that you need while you're building up your infrastructure), but having Mike for most of the Advanced game could be a big swing. I don't know the leaders well enough to say if he's the only one who can give you a bunch of CPs. But in general, it seems as if the Advanced game has some balance problems and it might be worth coming up with some variants to address them.
 
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