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Subject: list of card changes and discussion rss

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Ido Abelman
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I'm surprised no one did this already. I'm using mainly this list of new cards by Walter Kolczynski but also some info from the posted rulebook and previews. The rulebook and previews are considered the more authoritative source by me as there are some differences. Anything I could not find in the rulebook is taken from the list, if new info comes I'll edit this post.
I'll also comment on some changes. I do not consider myself an expert, I played only online on BGO and probably much less then some players. But I'll give my two cents.

production technologies:
1. One more selective breeding in 4p (3 instead of 2)
2. One less irrigation in 4p (2 instead of 3)

urban buildings:
1. Computers cost one more resource (11 instead of 10) - didn't get to use them much but I've seen some people get mad science production with them so it's probably good.

2. Bread & circuses cost 1 resource less (4 to 3). This one really surprised me. As I said I'm not an expert but b&c was pretty popular in games I remember. Culture is not as important at that phase (that is the reason drama and Taj Mahal were buffed) and b&c was already cheaper in resource making it a good (often even better) alternative to theology IMO even though the science cost is higher.
The change also seems to go against the general direction of nerfing military in this version.
Main advantages of theology were being able to upgrade from religion and comboing with Michaelangelo. But now building b&c costs only 1r more then the upgrade and as much as building a religion! And balancing technologies according to leaders is not a good approach IMO as leaders can be replaced in expansions.
I think I read something about more experienced players preferring temples over arenas but I'm not sure and I don't remember the reasons.

3. The resource cost of team sports is also reduced by 1 (6 to 5). A less significant discount than the one for b&c, and not as surprising to me but still goes against the general military nerf.

4. 1 more professional sports is available in 4p (1 to 2).

5. Drama is cheaper by 1 both in science (4 to 3) and in resources (5 to 4). As was said in the preview, this can make it more playable. There is also only one copy in 2p now.

6. Opera and Movies are also cheaper but only in resources (9 to 8 and 12 to 11). They were always pretty hard to build, this will probably make them used more often.

7. Printing press costs 1r less (4 to 3). Another card that I have rarely seen used, this will make it better. Interestingly now printing press costs the same as philosophy in resources but gives more - never happened before in the game I think. Of course you need to get the card and discover it, and the Urban Building limit make philosophy a viable building even after PP is dicovered.

8. 1 less Journalism in 2p (1 instead of 2) also 1 less in 4p (2 instead of 3).

Military unit technologies:
1. Knights and Swordsmen cost 1 more science (4 to 5 and 3 to 4). There is one less swordsmen card in 4p (3 to 2).

2. Age II units science costs have been equalized - riflemen cost 1 more (5 to 6) and cannon 1 less (7 to 6). A bit easier to diversify, especially important if there are artillery tactics available to copy. There is 1 less cavalryman in 4p (2 instead of 3).

3. In age III the science costs of the three basic unit types is actually reversed - modern inf. costs 10 instead of 8, rockets cost 8 instead of 10 while tanks stay 9. Interesting trend with age II and III costs - instead of newer unit types being consistently more expensive, they gradually become easier to get. There is 1 less rockets in 2p (1 instead of 2) and in 4p (2 instead of 3).

4. Air forces costs 1 more science (11 to 12).

Governments:
1. Monarchy cost are reduced by 1 both in revolution (3 to 2) and in peaceful change (9 to 8). I thought it was mostly fine as both a fifth CA and a third MA are extremely valuable at that point. But the cost was a little high so I guess it's a good change.

2. Theocracy costs are also reduced by 1 (7 to 6, 2 to 1). One of the happy faces is replaced with one strength. I don't remember ever using it or seeing it used (but again I'm not that experienced). Making it cheaper and replacing a happy face (that might go unused at an early stage or make you dependent on it when changing government is needed) with a strength might make it used more.

3. Republic is cheaper by 1 in both costs (14 to 13, 4 to 3). I always liked the 7 CAs but no extra MAs does make it often not as good as other govs.

4. Const. Monarchy's revolution cost is higher by 1 (5 to 6).

5. Communism - revolution is cheaper by 1 (6 to 5) while peaceful change is more expensive by 2 (17 to 19). Note that revolusioning into communism is now cheaper than revolusioning into Const. Monarchy!

6. Fundamentalism - peaceful change is cheaper by 1 (19 to 18). A new downside was added - lowering your science rate by 2. Very thematic and goes with nerfing military.

7. Democracy - revolution is more expensive by 1 (8 to 9) while peaceful change drop by a whole 4 (21 to 17) dropping democracy from the most expensive peaceful change in the entire game the the cheapest peaceful change in age III (still the most expensive revolution). Also the culture production is higher by 1 (2 to 3).

Special (blue) technologies:
1. Warfare is more expensive by 1 (4 to 5) while military theory is cheaper by 1 (12 to 11).

2. 1 less engineering and 1 less justice system in 4p (both are 1 instead of 2).

Wonders:
1. The two middle stages of the library of Alexandria are merged (1-2-2-1 became 1-4-1). Spending 4r at once is not trivial really early but one less CA is a much needed buff.

2. The Colossus replaces 1 culture with one extra strength (going from 1 to 2). Generally a buff as culture is less important at this point (so explain again why arenas became cheaper?).

3. St. Peter's Basilica: Instead of doubling all happy faces, the basilica now increases every source of happiness production by one. This is strictly weaker but compensated a little by having the basilica itself also produce 1 happy face. Still weaker in most situations - only stronger when you have no happiness besides the basilica or when you only have things that produce 1 happy face.
The basilica was good with a potential for awesome combos but I never thought it was too much. I guess more experienced players and designers thought otherwise.

4. Taj Mahal got an extra blue token. Also it has a new very unique effect - if I understand it correctly, it says that if you replace a leader on the same turn you take Taj Mahal from the card row, then taking Taj Mahal costs 2 CAs less. This would be the first time a card had an effect that acts while it is on the card row, reducing it's own CA cost. As replacing a leader is free now, this will encourage it even more. Overall the wonder is buffed, and I think this was needed.
Thematic note - I think Taj Mahal costing less when you replace a leader refers to it being a mausoleum. So when your leader dies it's easier to convince your people to build a large palace over his grave. A nice touch.

5. Kremlin - 1 less unhappy face (2 to 1), 1 less culture production (3 to 2). Much tested and discussed, I don't think I have anything to add here.

6. Ocean liner service - now the population increase costs you nothing instead of 5 less. As often building the OLS means letting go of farm development, often the last four yellow tokens were really hard to get. As OLS is hard to build and often comes into effect late, not getting the last 4 tokens often meant it is not worth it. Now it got a really good buff.
Update: the OLS also costs now 4 2 2 4 instead of 3 2 2 2 3. Another buff which will also let you start getting free population earlier.

7. Transcontinental Railroad: The cost is now 4 4 4 4 and the strength bonus is 4 instead of 5. Pretty big nerf, I don't know if it's deserved. I used to think it's really good but beginners have a harder time to catch up with the 5 strength bonus and they tend to upgrade mines more often.

8. Hollywood give 2 culture for each culture your theaters and libraries produce instead of for each of their levels. With libraries the culture production and the level is the same, with theaters it is 1 higher so this is definitely a needed buff and increases the thematic combo with movies. Also theaters and libraries are generally cheaper now making it even stronger. To top all that, the wonder now combos with Bach, Shakespeare and Charlie Chaplin (formerly Elvis Presley/Rock&Roll icon) as confirmed by the rulebook appendix.

9. Internet is completely changed. The cost is the same but now the effect is 1 culture per science, strength or culture your urban buildings produce. Now all urban buildings contribute to the internet. Libraries contribute the same as before, labs usually contribute a little less than before but this is overshadowed by temples contributing a little, arenas a little more and theaters even more. I wonder if it is influenced by the internet becoming even more omnipresent in all facets of urban life than it was in 2006.
There are few situations where the new internet will produce less culture than the old but generally this is a needed buff and it works with many different strategies. Like Hollywood this is also influenced by leaders that increase the production of urban buildings.

10. First space flight had its first step divided into 2 (3-4-9 became 1-2-4-9). A nerf that was probably needed.

Leaders:
1. Julius Ceaser - As previewed, he got the abillity to play a second political action once per game.

2. Homer's culture production was replaced by a happy face. Probably a buff by itself as culture production is not so big early on. But the big new thing is that when you replace Homer with another leader you can give up getting an action back and put Homer under a wonder, giving it a permanent happy face.

3. Hammurabi - now instead of getting a permanent +CA and -MA, you can decide each turn to use an MA in the place of a CA. Great buff IMO, really in the spirit of the original effect but allowing you each turn to choose if the extra CA is worth letting go of a military card draw\unit build. Also it doesn't decrease your military card limit (also doesn't increase your civil card limit but that is negligible next to the advantages).
Also, taking a new leader costs -1 CA - often free or near it. With the new rule for replacing leaders you can often replace Hammurabi for free or near it when you don't need him anymore.

4. Alexander the great - as previewed, you can now remove Alexander from the game to gain 1 yellow token. Highly thematic buff (dying early and conquering land). Alexander always seemed scary but you need a good amount of units and aggressions to make good use of him, hard without extra MA. This doesn't solve that but if you don't get enough out of him you can at least get some territory.

5. Michelangelo - the abillity to take a wonder for 1 less CA was changed to take a wonder without paying extra for earlier wonders. Not a big change I think.

6. Joan of arc - 1 extra MA which is really big at this point and goes well with the strength. Joan now gives strength for each happy face of your temples and government instead of just temples (only matters with theology I think, fits thematically). Scoring for for being attacked was removed, but you can now peek at the next event card before you political action - interesting abillity, might help you decide if you want to play an event and if you don't you can use your turn to prepare to what you saw. Overall she is much stronger as was needed.
Update: appearently she also gives a culture production of 1 now. Thought the above was good enough but apparently they didn't think so. But the culture bonus seems pretty random...

7. Genghis Khan - completely changed. Now he can consider infantry as cavalry for tactics making it much easier to play the strong cavalry tactics. Also he scores 3 culture each turn if his civilization is one of the two strongest (strongest in 2p), making the arms race serve another purpose.

8. Frederick Barbarossa - instead of paying a CA for his special combo action, you pay an MA now. Usually stronger I think.

9. William Shakespeare - libraries no longer produce 1 culture more. But if you have a library you can discover and build theaters for 1 science and one resource less, and vice versa. So shakes helps you build his combo more easily, but the combo produces less culture.
Update: he also gives 1 happy face now.

10. James Cook - only 1 culture per colony beyond the first (first is still worth 2). Instead of buffing colonize bonus cards, Cook now allows you to discard up to two other military cards for +1 colonize each. The second change make colonization bonuses less swingy I guess and is usually worth a bit more but it is wasteful on your military cards. I think it is generally weaker. Again not an expert but I don't think this was needed. Maybe this was done to reduce Cook's extreme cases.

11. Napoleon Bonaparte - instead of doubling your best tactics, Nappy now gives +2 strength per unit type you have. Also he gives 2 MAs instead of one. Not strictly weaker (early and with no good tactics he actually has the potential to be stronger) but mad combos of strong tactics and air forces are no longer possible.

12. Maximillien Robespierre - now gives 3 culture when you revolution. I always liked Robespierre actually, makes the revolution turn much less wasted. Was surprised he was buffed, but I guess the experts know better here. Now he gives you some incentive to revolution more than once.

13. Johannes Sebastian Bach - the 1 science discount for theaters was increased to 2. The 1 resource discount was replaced by a special action - once per turn you can upgrade any urban building into a theater by paying the cost difference. Really great thing, makes building high level theaters much easier and giving up buildings for more culture is something that is often done late in the game.

14. Christopher Columbus is now removed from the game after doing his thing. Which might make him a little weaker with the new leader replacement rules. It's pretty thematic however.

15. Elvis Presley/Rock&Roll icon is now Charlie Chaplin. Not sure if it's new or if it was this way at some version. I actually think this fits even better as Chaplin was all about laughter and happiness ("A day without laughter is a day wasted") and comboing with movies makes better thematic sense (not so much with drama or opera but did Elvis really make sense with those either?).

16. Bill Gates (I think he was Tesla at some version?) lost the negative effect on other player, instead producing culture equal to his production when he is leaves the game or at the end.

17. Winston Churchill completely changed. Now he can choose each turn between 3 culture or +3 science and +3 resources for military builds. Nice flexibility, more potential culture than Gandhi and nice "entering state of emergency" theme that doesn't activate only when at war.

Actions:
1. Age II breakthrough only produces 3 science instead of 4. There are two of each breakthrough card (age I and II) instead of 1.

2. Cultural Heritage A and I replace Revolutionary Idea A and I, adding to their effects 4 culture and 2 culture respectively. Nice thematic and needed buff. There is also an additional age III Revolutionary Idea.

3. One extra age I frugality (1 to 2).

4. Bountiful Harvest and Mineral Deposits cards are all merged into Reserves cards that allow choosing to get food or resources.

5. Rich Land now allows upgrading (woohoo!). There is one more in age I (1 to 2).

6. Urban Growth replaces ideal building site and allows upgrading. There is one additional in age I (1 to 2).

7. New card in age A: Stockpile (single copy), +1 resource and +1 food.

8. Removed: Efficient Upgrade I, All works of art (somewhat merged into cultural heritage).

Aggressions:
1. Enslave now gives 2 food and 2 resources (always thought aggressions lacked ways to give food).

2. Raids are all changed. Now each allow to destroy a single building of their level or less. Raid II and III also allow to destroy a second building of a lower level. This is sometimes better as getting the full effect of the higher level raid is much easier now. On the other hand it limits the potential of waiting with a lower raid to a later age, and put a lower cap on the potential of the higher level raids. Probably good.

3. Sabotage and Assassinate are merged into infiltrate (there are 2 copies). It seems no longer to vary the cost according to the level but to cost a flat 2 MA. Walter Kolczynski's file doesn't indicate the wonder destroyed needs to be under construction, I'm guessing it's an omission and not a change.
Nice merge of two situational cards. If the MA cost is in fact flat it seems often beneficial to wait until age III and score more points.

4. All plunders cost only 1 MA now. Age III plunder steals one less resource\food (7 instead of 8).

Wars:
1. War over resources, Age II War over Culture, and Holy war are all removed and replaced by an additional War over Technology, an additional War over Territory (there are 2 of each now) and two more age III War over culture cards (there are 6 now). I've never seen a hard hit by Holy war but I've heard some horror stories about how devastating it can be so probably good to get rid of it.

2. War over territory now steals an extra yellow per 5 points of strength difference.

3. War over culture: the victor now steals 5 culture in addition to the strength difference. I was surprised to see that buff with the general direction of nerfing military in this version. I guess an additional incentive to play these wars was now needed.

Pacts:
1. Open Borders Agreement now gives +2 strength to the player who attack the other instead of +3. Generally means it has more chance of being accepted and less chance of biting you back so it's probably stronger.

2. In Promise of Military Protection the protected side now gets +4 strength instead of +5 making it weaker for that side (and probably weaker overall).

3. Military Pact is now called Military Alliance (no pacts with the word pact in their names now!) and gives 1 less strength to both sides (3 instead of 4).
So in general, all pacts that gives strength in any way gives 1 less.

Tactics:
1. The amount of tactic cards is reduced - not surprising given the new tactic copy rules. There are now 2 of each age I tactics (reducing Fighting Band, Medieval Army and Phalanx by 1), 1 of each age II tactics (reducing Conquistadors and Defensive Army by 1) and one less each of Entrenchments and Shock Troops (1 instead of 2).

2. Light cavalry is removed.

3. Classic Army's bonuses are reduced by 1 - 8(4) instead of 9(5).

4. Mobile Artillery got an antiquated bonus of 3 to work with the possibility of new Genghis Khan making Age A warriors count as cavalry.

5. Fortifications is stronger by 1 (5 instead of 4) and also got an antiquated bonus of 3 (seems superfluous even with the new Genghis Khan, probably just wanting to cover all possibilities of future expansions).

6. Napoleonic army's main bonus is weaker by one (7 instead of 8).

Events:
1. Age A's "no event" card is replaced by development of civilization: each civ can increase population, build a farm, mine or urban building or develop a technology for 1 less of the matching resource.
Nice thing to be prepared to.

2. Development of politics now doesn't say that the current player doesn't discard military cards this round. Might be related to the fact that the discard now happens at the end of the turn so the current player can now play a tactics before discarding.

3. Territories: Fertile territory I and II are replaced by matching Vast Territories, which are the same but give -1 blue token. Vast territory II gives one less food than the old fertile (5 instead of 4). Wealthy territory II gives one more resource (9 instead of 8), and both wealthy territories give one more blue token (3 instead of 2, 4 instead of 3).

4. Civil unrest also makes civilizations with the most discontent workers lose 1 blue token.

5. New age II events: Prosperity (each civ gains 1 food per happy face), Politics of strength (strongest civ. draws 5 military cards, weakest discards 3, if drawn in age IV make instead gain or lose that much culture).

6. Impact of agriculture now gives an extra 4 culture bonus to each player whose food production is higher than his consumption. Makes it nicer to seed if your opponents start destroying their farms in the late game, but still doesn't really encourage getting really high food production.

7. Impact of industry now only gives points for your mines' production. Destroys the obvious combo with Bill Gates, I don't know if that was necessary (maybe because he now gives culture himself). I think it still works with transcontinental railroad as that wonder modifies your mine instead of producing by itself. So I think Bill Gates is the only thing that cares about the change, perhaps until expansions come (OK there is also international trade agreement but that's pretty minor). I don't think I like this change as it's inelegant (now it works differently from similar impacts) and ruins the possibility of future combos. But Vlaada knows best, I guess.

8. Impact of colonies now give only 3 culture per colony instead of 4. With the change to Cook, the max culture gain from a heavy colonization strategy is significantly lowers.

9. New age III events (impacts): Impact of balance (culture equal to 2 times your lowest production out of food/resources/science/culture), Impact of variety (2 culture per type of military unit, urban building and blue tech).

Wow that took much longer than I thought. Comment if you find something I missed or another mistake. And of course I'd like to hear some discussion of the changes.
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Charles Washington
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Great post. Thanks for you time and effort putting this together.
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Marin Baraba
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Great list! Big thanks from me as well. Interesting tweaks. I can't wait to have a copy of this game. :-)
 
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Ido Abelman
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Thank you, edited. I forgot to mention I compared everything to the civilopedia in BGO so some mistakes (especially in card counts) might originate from there.
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George I.
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Great post, thanks! It would be great to have the rule changes, as well (no sacrifices, corruption is checked first, etc).
 
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Ido Abelman
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KissaTaikuri wrote:
CBpegasus wrote:
Thank you, edited. I forgot to mention I compared everything to the civilopedia in BGO so some mistakes (especially in card counts) might originate from there.
The bgo card counts are pretty reliable. I doubt that they came from there. Good job either way.

From my civilopedia:


Still doubt me? (of course I could fake it but why the heck would I?)
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Paul Smith
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Has the Constitutional Monarchy cost increase been discussed in public? I wonder why they felt reducing the cost of all other governments wasn't enough.
 
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Ido Abelman
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Wondered why there is so little disscussion and then I noticed the disscussion thread in the original game page.
Reading it, it made me notice the work of art action card and the light cavalry tactic were both removed. Edited
 
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Ido Abelman
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I somehow managed to miss the fact that Napoleon now gives 2 military actions. Also I missed one of the 2 new age II events (politics of strength). Edited.
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Ido Abelman
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Picon wrote:
Great post, thanks! It would be great to have the rule changes, as well (no sacrifices, corruption is checked first, etc).
Made another list now
List of rules changes
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Walter Kolczynski
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I checked my Civilpedia for 2-, 3-, and 4-player games and they all show 2/2/3, so I'm not sure why CBpegasus's is different.
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Ido Abelman
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Weird. It was 3 players. The game is over and I still see 2/2/2. I don't know if you can see it but this is the URL of my civilopedia: http://www.boardgaming-online.com/index.php?cnt=202&pl=72799...

Another weird thing is that all starting techs are shown as 2/3/3...
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Mark van der Werf
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CBpegasus wrote:
I'm surprised no one did this already. I'm using mainly this list of new cards by Walter Kolczynski but also some info from the posted rulebook and previews. The rulebook and previews are considered the more authoritative source by me as there are some differences. Anything I could not find in the rulebook is taken from the list, if new info comes I'll edit this post.
I'll also comment on some changes. I do not consider myself an expert, I played only online on BGO and probably much less then some players. But I'll give my two cents.

production technologies:
1. One more selective breeding in 4p (3 instead of 2)

urban buildings:
1. Computers cost one more resource (11 instead of 10) - didn't get to use them much but I've seen some people get mad science production with them so it's probably good.

This is good, computers was often quite strong because of the 3 leaders that interact so well with it and Tesla even got buffed now. You make a note later that balancing around leaders is bad but you simply can't avoid it. Also a reason I think an expansion with leaders/wonders is not that great. Strange thing though is why Oil and mechanized breeding didn't get reduced, those are nearly useless..

2. Bread & circuses cost 1 resource less (4 to 3). This one really surprised me. As I said I'm not an expert but b&c was pretty popular in games I remember. Culture is not as important at that phase (that is the reason drama and Taj Mahal were buffed) and b&c was already cheaper in resource making it a good (often even better) alternative to theology IMO even though the science cost is higher.
The change also seems to go against the general direction of nerfing military in this version.
Main advantages of theology were being able to upgrade from religion and comboing with Michaelangelo. But now building b&c costs only 1r more then the upgrade and as much as building a religion! And balancing technologies according to leaders is not a good approach IMO as leaders can be replaced in expansions.
I think I read something about more experienced players preferring temples over arenas but I'm not sure and I don't remember the reasons.

B&C was awful and never saw use with good players. 1 culture is better than 1 strength generally and being able to upgrade into something is huge. Reason for example why alchemy/scientific method see so much more play than printing press/journalism. This buff is fine although I had preferred the idea that I saw floating around somewhere earlier: allow upgrading temples into arena's/religion buildings/theaters. Thematically this even makes some sense I think

3. The resource cost of team sports is also reduced by 1 (6 to 5). A less significant discount than the one for b&c, and not as surprising to me but still goes against the general military nerf.

4. 1 more professional sports is available in 4p (1 to 2).

5. Drama is cheaper by 1 both in science (4 to 3) and in resources (5 to 4). As was said in the preview, this can make it more playable. There is also only one copy in 2p now.

6. Opera and Movies are also cheaper but only in resources (9 to 8 and 12 to 11). They were always pretty hard to build, this will probably make them used more often.

7. Printing press costs 1r less (4 to 3). Another card that I have rarely seen used, this will make it better. Interestingly now printing press costs the same as philosophy in resources but gives more - never happened before in the game I think. Of course you need to get the card and discover it, and the Urban Building limit make philosophy a viable building even after PP is dicovered.

8. 1 less Journalism in 2p.

Rest of these changes all good, techs that were simply too inefficient to compete and all look interesting now.

Military unit technologies:
1. Knights and Swordsmen cost 1 more science (4 to 5 and 3 to 4). There is one more knights card in 4p (2 to 3).

2. Age II units science costs have been equalized - riflemen cost 1 more (5 to 6) and cannon 1 less (7 to 6). A bit easier to diversify, especially important if there are artillery tactics available to copy. Also 1 more cannon is available in 4p.

3. In age III the science costs of the three basic unit types is actually reversed - modern inf. costs 10 instead of 8, rockets cost 8 instead of 10 while tanks stay 9. Interesting trend with age II and III costs - instead of newer unit types being consistently more expensive, they gradually become easier to get. There is one less rockets in 2p.


4. Air forces costs 1 more science (11 to 12).

A bit of a hit and a miss on these techs. Knights and swordsmen going up is cool, makes it more interesting to stick on just one of them. As a side effect Great wall was already best wonder I think and is so by far now imo because defensive army is the only playable tactic that is just as expensive to get techs for now, while rest goes up. (plus it's very strong with genghis khan and heavy cav).
One problem of the game is that age 1 techs with age 2 tactics (and possibly airforce) is by far the most efficient way to go about military. Leading to luck too much on missing an appropiate age 2 tactic. That problem isn't solved enough because they needlessly increased cost of age 2 military techs. They should have buffed those actually because it is silly that even in age 2 it is generally preferred to make swordsman instead of rifleman, the 1 strength isn't worth 2 extra resources typically. More knights in 4p and more expensive airforces is good but they dropped the ball here, people will still be going age 1 units with age 2 tactics (which you hope to copy now if you miss).


Governments:
1. Monarchy cost are reduced by 1 both in revolution (3 to 2) and in peaceful change (9 to 8). I thought it was mostly fine as both a fifth CA and a third MA are extremely valuable at that point. But the cost was a little high so I guess it's a good change.

2. Theocracy costs are also reduced by 1 (7 to 6, 2 to 1). One of the happy faces is replaced with one strength. I don't remember ever using it or seeing it used (but again I'm not that experienced). Making it cheaper and replacing a happy face (that might go unused at an early stage or make you dependent on it when changing government is needed) with a strength might make it used more.

3. Republic is cheaper by 1 in both costs (14 to 13, 4 to 3). I always liked the 7 CAs but no extra MAs does make it often not as good as other govs. There is also 1 more in 4p (1 to 2).

4. Const. Monarchy's revolution cost is higher by 1 (5 to 6).

5. Communism - revolution is cheaper by 1 (6 to 5) while peaceful change is more expensive by 2 (17 to 19). Note that revolusioning into communism is now cheaper than revolusioning into Const. Monarchy!

6. Fundamentalism - peaceful change is cheaper by 1 (19 to 18). A new downside was added - lowering your science rate by 2. Very thematic and goes with nerfing military.

7. Democracy - revolution is more expensive by 1 (8 to 9) while peaceful change drop by a whole 4 (21 to 17) dropping democracy from the most expensive peaceful change in the entire game the the cheapest peaceful change in age III (still the most expensive revolution). Also the culture production is higher by 1 (2 to 3).

These changes are alright. Theocracy still seems useless and peaceful change to CM in early age 2 still seems like the best thing but democracy looks sweet too now. I guess it's thematic to make peaceful change to communism so expensive but I don't think you'll ever want to do that, pray for fundamentalism or democracy then.

Special (blue) technologies:
1. Warfare is more expensive by 1 (4 to 5) while military theory is cheaper by 1 (12 to 11).

Good although they may be even better than before since MA is crucial for defense now, amount of defense cards you're allowed to play is limited by MA. Plus higher hand limit for Military cards is huge

Wonders:
1. The two middle stages of the library of Alexandria are merged (1-2-2-1 became 1-4-1). Spending 4r at once is not trivial really early but one less CA is a much needed buff.

Decent wonder now, note that the biggest buff comes from holding more military cards now since you can discard any for 1 defense.Being able to use eng.genius I on it also matters.

2. The Colossus replaces 1 culture with one extra strength (going from 1 to 2). Generally a buff as culture is less important at this point (so explain again why arenas became cheaper?).

Most silly change of the new game. Take a bad wonder and make it generally even worse.. Perhaps this has some niche uses now if you hold good aggressions and this somehow garantees early success on those. They should just have dropped the cost to 2-2 or something.

3. St. Peter's Basilica: Instead of doubling all happy faces, the basilica now increases every source of happiness production by one. This is strictly weaker but compensated a little by having the basilica itself also produce 1 happy face. Still weaker in most situations - only stronger when you have no happiness besides the basilica or when you only have things that produce 1 happy face.
The basilica was good with a potential for awesome combos but I never thought it was too much. I guess more experienced players and designers thought otherwise.


Decent change. For most 'fair' use this is a buff actually I think because being at 3 happiness with just a temple and this is big. And usually you'll be fine at 4 happiness which is still just a theology/2 temples and this. Slight nerf of course to Michelangelo combo's, which may have been neccesary if Military ends up much weaker in the new version (michelangelo could be broken in passive games, usually too weak in aggressive/high level play).


4. Taj Mahal got an extra blue token. Also it has a new very unique effect - if I understand it correctly, it says that if you replace a leader on the same turn you take Taj Mahal from the card row, then taking Taj Mahal costs 2 CAs less. This would be the first time a card had an effect that acts while it is on the card row, reducing it's own CA cost. As replacing a leader is free now, this will encourage it even more. Overall the wonder is buffed, and I think this was needed.
Thematic note - I think Taj Mahal costing less when you replace a leader refers to it being a mausoleum. So when your leader dies it's easier to convince your people to build a large palace over his grave. A nice touch.

Probably my favorite change, sweet thematic and different.

5. Kremlin - 1 less unhappy face (2 to 1), 1 less culture production (3 to 2). Much tested and discussed, I don't think I have anything to add here.

6. Ocean liner service - now the population increase costs you nothing instead of 5 less. As often building the OLS means letting go of farm development, often the last four yellow tokens were really hard to get. As OLS is hard to build and often comes into effect late, not getting the last 4 tokens often meant it is not worth it. Now it got a really good buff.

7. Hollywood give 2 culture for each culture your theaters and libraries produce instead of for each of their levels. With libraries the culture production and the level is the same, with theaters it is 1 higher so this is definitely a needed buff and increases the thematic combo with movies. Also theaters and libraries are generally cheaper now making it even stronger. To top all that, the wonder now combos with Bach, Shakespeare and Charlie Chaplin (formerly Elvis Presley/Rock&Roll icon) as confirmed by the rulebook appendix.

8. Internet is completely changed. The cost is the same but now the effect is 1 culture per science, strength or culture your urban buildings produce. Now all urban buildings contribute to the internet. Libraries contribute the same as before, labs usually contribute a little less than before but this is overshadowed by temples contributing a little, arenas a little more and theaters even more. I wonder if it is influenced by the internet becoming even more omnipresent in all facets of urban life than it was in 2006.
There are few situations where the new internet will produce less culture than the old but generally this is a needed buff and it works with many different strategies. Like Hollywood this is also influenced by leaders that increase the production of urban buildings.

9. First space flight had its first step divided into 2 (3-4-9 became 1-2-4-9). A nerf that was probably needed.

All other wonder changes fairly good, especially interesting that all age 3 ones look useful now. Makes Tesla especially look really good being able to make 2 wonders perhaps and score well on them because of high science production. Still a bit of a shame high resource or food production is never useful.

Leaders:
1. Julius Ceaser - As previewed, he got the abillity to play a second political action once per game.

2. Homer's culture production was replaced by a happy face. Probably a buff by itself as culture production is not so big early on. But the big new thing is that when you replace Homer with another leader you can give up getting an action back and put Homer under a wonder, giving it a permanent happy face.

3. Hammurabi - now instead of getting a permanent +CA and -MA, you can decide each turn to use an MA in the place of a CA. Great buff IMO, really in the spirit of the original effect but allowing you each turn to choose if the extra CA is worth letting go of a military card draw\unit build. Also it doesn't decrease your military card limit (also doesn't increase your civil card limit but that is negligible next to the advantages).
Also, taking a new leader costs -1 CA - often free or near it. With the new rule for replacing leaders you can often replace Hammurabi for free or near it when you don't need him anymore.

4. Alexander the great - as previewed, you can now remove Alexander from the game to gain 1 yellow token. Highly thematic buff (dying early and conquering land). Alexander always seemed scary but you need a good amount of units and aggressions to make good use of him, hard without extra MA. This doesn't solve that but if you don't get enough out of him you can at least get some territory.

5. Michelangelo - the abillity to take a wonder for 1 less CA was changed to take a wonder without paying extra for earlier wonders. Not a big change I think.

6. Joan of arc - 1 extra MA which is really big at this point and goes well with the strength. Joan now gives strength for each happy face of your temples and government instead of just temples (only matters with theology I think, fits thematically). Scoring for for being attacked was removed, but you can now peek at the next event card before you political action - interesting abillity, might help you decide if you want to play an event and if you don't you can use your turn to prepare to what you saw. Overall she is much stronger as was needed.

Looks fairly good now. The obvious interaction would be with theocracy but theocracy still looks to bad on it's own for that to work.

7. Genghis Khan - completely changed. Now he can consider infantry as cavalry for tactics making it much easier to play the strong cavalry tactics. Also he scores 3 culture each turn if his civilization is one of the two strongest (strongest in 2p), making the arms race serve another purpose.

Such an odd change. I liked the old genghis and this just seems odd now, especially the combination of great wall, heavy cavalry and this. 3 culture each turn is also quite good for how little effort it takes often with him. I guess he does make heavy cav played now whereas the old one made heavy cavalry moot by being used instead of heavy cav a lot.

8. Frederick Barbarossa - instead of paying a CA for his special combo action, you pay an MA now. Usually stronger I think.

9. William Shakespeare - libraries no longer produce 1 culture more. But if you have a library you can discover and build theaters for 1 science and one resource less, and vice versa. So shakes helps you build his combo more easily, but the combo produces less culture.

10. James Cook - only 1 culture per colony beyond the first (first is still worth 2). Instead of buffing colonize bonus cards, Cook now allows you to discard up to two other military cards for +1 colonize each. The second change make colonization bonuses less swingy I guess and is usually worth a bit more but it is wasteful on your military cards. I think it is generally weaker. Again not an expert but I don't think this was needed. Maybe this was done to reduce Cook's extreme cases.

This change is alright I think, Cook was sometimes way too strong running away with games early if you happened to get 3 territories.

11. Napoleon Bonaparte - instead of doubling your best tactics, Nappy now gives +2 strength per unit type you have. Also he gives 2 MAs instead of one. Not strictly weaker (early and with no good tactics he actually has the potential to be stronger) but mad combos of strong tactics and air forces are no longer possible.

12. Maximillien Robespierre - now gives 3 culture when you revolution. I always liked Robespierre actually, makes the revolution turn much less wasted. Was surprised he was buffed, but I guess the experts know better here. Now he gives you some incentive to revolution more than once.

All age 2 leaders were in a bit of a weird spot that there was such a waiting game for Napoleon (and sometimes Cook). Even if you got Republic + Robespierre into your lap at the beginning of age 2 you had to think twice if you wanted to garantee your opponent getting Napo. With that fixed now I don't think he needed a buff but this change is so small it's pretty irrelevant.

13. Johannes Sebastian Bach - the 1 science discount for theaters was increased to 2. The 1 resource discount was replaced by a special action - once per turn you can upgrade any urban building into a theater by paying the cost difference. Really great thing, makes building high level theaters much easier and giving up buildings for more culture is something that is often done late in the game.

Favorite leader now, i think this is really sweet. Converting philosophies into theaters later if you don't need science anymore and fixing happiness at the same time looks really interesting. And sets up nicely into elvis later.

14. Elvis Presley/Rock&Roll icon is now Charlie Chaplin. Not sure if it's new or if it was this way at some version. I actually think this fits even better as Chaplin was all about laughter and happiness ("A day without laughter is a day wasted") and comboing with movies makes better thematic sense (not so much with drama or opera but did Elvis really make sense with those either?).

15. Bill Gates (I think he was Tesla at some version?) lost the negative effect on other player, instead producing culture equal to his production when he is leaves the game or at the end.

16. Winston Churchill completely changed. Now he can choose each turn between 3 culture or +3 science and +3 resources for military builds. Nice flexibility, more potential culture than Gandhi and nice "entering state of emergency" theme that doesn't activate only when at war.

This feels really strong, interesting to be changed from a defensive leader into something more offensive. Just grabbing this for culture seems a bit strong for no effort though.

Actions:
1. Age II breakthrough only produces 3 science instead of 4. There are two of each breakthrough card (age I and II) instead of 1.

2. Cultural Heritage A and I replace Revolutionary Idea A and I, adding to their effects 4 culture and 2 culture respectively. Nice thematic and needed buff. There is also an additional age III Revolutionary Idea.

3. One extra age I frugality (1 to 2).

4. Bountiful Harvest and Mineral Deposits cards are all merged into Reserves cards that allow choosing to get food or resources.

5. Rich Land now allows upgrading (woohoo!). There is one more in age I (1 to 2).

6. Urban Growth replaces ideal building site and allows upgrading. There is one additional in age I (1 to 2).

7. New card in age A: Stockpile (single copy), +1 resource and +1 food.

8. Removed: Efficient Upgrade I, All works of art (somewhat merged into cultural heritage).

Good changes, especially the useless age A cards were a bit of frustation too often leading to player 1 with 1 CA at turn 0 getting a better card than the 2 combined for player 2.

Aggressions:
1. Enslave now gives 2 food and 2 resources (always thought aggressions lacked ways to give food).

2. Raids are all changed. Now each allow to destroy a single building of their level or less. Raid II and III also allow to destroy a second building of a lower level. This is sometimes better as getting the full effect of the higher level raid is much easier now. On the other hand it limits the potential of waiting with a lower raid to a later age, and put a lower cap on the potential of the higher level raids. Probably good.

3. Sabotage and Assassinate are merged into infiltrate (there are 2 copies). It seems no longer to vary the cost according to the level but to cost a flat 2 MA. Walter Kolczynski's file doesn't indicate the wonder destroyed needs to be under construction, I'm guessing it's an omission and not a change.
Nice merge of two situational cards. If the MA cost is in fact flat it seems often beneficial to wait until age III and score more points.

4. Age III plunder steals one less resource\food (7 instead of 8).

Good changes

Wars:
1. War over resources, Age II War over Culture, and Holy war are all removed and replaced by an additional War over Technology, an additional War over Territory (there are 2 of each now) and two more age III War over culture cards (there are 6 now). I've never seen a hard hit by Holy war but I've heard some horror stories about how devastating it can be so probably good to get rid of it.

Holy war removed because he doesn't condone them was a very silly reason. But it's also a shame for gameplay because it was often the only war that was really bad to suffer early on. War over resources and technology can be suffered too easily by emptying your resources/science and culture war can be endured, may be pretty huge for nerfing military overall.


2. War over territory now steals an extra yellow per 5 points of strength difference.

3. War over culture: the victor now steals 5 culture in addition to the strength difference. I was surprised to see that buff with the general direction of nerfing military in this version. I guess an additional incentive to play these wars was now needed.

Pacts:
1. Open Borders Agreement now gives +2 strength to the player who attack the other instead of +3. Generally means it has more chance of being accepted and less chance of biting you back so it's probably stronger.

2. In Promise of Military Protection the protected side now gets +4 strength instead of +5 making it weaker for that side (and probably weaker overall).

Tactics:
1. The amount of tactic cards is reduced - not surprising given the new tactic copy rules. There are now 2 of each age I tactics (reducing Fighting Band, Medieval Army and Phalanx by 1), 1 of each age II tactics (reducing Conquistadors and Defensive Army by 1) and one less each of Entrenchments and Shock Troops (1 instead of 2).

This stinks, i severely dislike this copying as a solution to the tactics problem. Often it doesn't even solve the problem of not drawing one yourself because you can not easily converge to what the other is making, plus you need to wait a turn. Also it promotes copying eachother too much. I think tactics were the ugly part of TTA and remain to be so.

2. Light cavalry is removed.

3. Classic Army's bonuses are reduced by 1 - 8(4) instead of 9(5).

4. Mobile Artillery got an antiquated bonus of 3 to work with the possibility of new Genghis Khan making Age A warriors count as cavalry.

5. Fortifications is stronger by 1 (5 instead of 4) and also got an antiquated bonus of 3 (seems superfluous even with the new Genghis Khan, probably just wanting to cover all possibilities of future expansions).

6. Napoleonic army's main bonus is weaker by one (7 instead of 8).

Age 3 tactics unfortunately still too bad and fortifications is still not good enough but the rest is a bit closer.

Events:
1. Age A's "no event" card is replaced by development of civilization: each civ can increase population, build a farm, mine or urban building or develop a technology for 1 less of the matching resource.
Nice thing to be prepared to.

2. Territories: Fertile territory I and II are replaced by matching Vast Territories, which are the same but give -1 blue token. Wealthy territory II gives one more resource (9 instead of 8).

3. Civil unrest also makes civilizations with the most discontent workers lose 1 blue token.

4. New age II events: Prosperity (each civ gains 1 food per happy face), Politics of strength (strongest civ. draws 5 military cards, weakest discards 3, if drawn in age IV make instead gain or lose that much culture).

5. New age III events (impacts): Impact of balance (culture equal to 2 times your lowest production out of food/resources/science/culture), Impact of variety (2 culture per type of military unit, urban building and blue tech).

Wow that took much longer than I thought. Comment if you find something I missed or another mistake. And of course I'd like to hear some discussion of the changes.

Put my opinions in.

Overall I like most changes especially that much more stuff seems playable now instead of being extremely niche or unuseable. Except for the minor nitpicks on a few cards I only dislike the 'fix' they did to military.
It's still too much about drawing the right tactic and the copying doesn't fix that in many cases, for example if you have great wall and are looking to go into defensive army you won't be able to copy that from someone else probably and now you need even more luck to draw it. Heck it can create weird situations in 3/4p games where player A helps player B by playing defensive army because he needs it to defend against player C. I still wish they had gone with a different fix for tactics, for example allowing to discard 2 military cards to draw a new one to help dig for a tactic. Or merging tactics with event cards so they would be split cards, you'd draw more tactics then but having too many would never be an issue.
And age 3 tactics are still too useless, mostly because age 2 and 3 military units are overcosted for their strength and age 2 tactics too close in strength to age 3 tactics.

Overall it seems like a big improvement, i may sound a bit sour on tactics but that was the weak part of the game in the old version too so overall it's mostly an improvement. Looking forward to playing it more.
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Grant
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CBpegasus wrote:
Weird. It was 3 players. The game is over and I still see 2/2/2. I don't know if you can see it but this is the URL of my civilopedia: http://www.boardgaming-online.com/index.php?cnt=202&pl=72799...

Another weird thing is that all starting techs are shown as 2/3/3...
My games, which are all 3 player, show 2/2/2 for Alchemy as well.
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KissaTaikuri wrote:
CBpegasus wrote:
Weird. It was 3 players. The game is over and I still see 2/2/2. I don't know if you can see it but this is the URL of my civilopedia: http://www.boardgaming-online.com/index.php?cnt=202&pl=72799...

Another weird thing is that all starting techs are shown as 2/3/3...
I can see that through the link. Interesting that it shows differently for different games. I guess it's a glitch in the code. I know the game usually scales information based on the player count so something must've gotten fouled up. It appears I was wrong to fully trust the site.

It seems to me that the glitch is that at 3p, the last number (4p card count) becomes identical to the second one (the 3p count). This explains the weird "2/3/3" for the starting techs.

This also means I made many mistake regarding card counts, especially as one of the changes they made (as I've seen discussed elsewhere) was reducing the amount of cards in 4p, because apparently the old 4p games were on average 1 round longer than the other. I compared the card counts again and I'll now edit anything I got wrong or just missed the last time.
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For anyone who still follows this thread - Walter Kolczynsky updated his list so I updated mine accordingly. Transcontinental railroad now appears with the nerf that was done to it, and Joan of Arc got another buff that was not accounted for previously.
 
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reading only the changelog not getting the game yet, some changes are really necessary. But some are really a pita - I still wonder whether the developer has actually understood the reasons cards are under-used, and of course how to adapt the widely discussed possible changes.

just to add, on top, the counters are so hard to see on the board now and I have seen some QC issues in the material of the board. prolly will only try it online if there is a online subscrtion available.
 
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Another update, after some comments at the file thread. Some changes I missed regarding territories, and fixed a mistake regarding plunders that was in the file.
 
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lofung_hk wrote:
reading only the changelog not getting the game yet, some changes are really necessary. But some are really a pita - I still wonder whether the developer has actually understood the reasons cards are under-used...
What makes you think their understanding is flawed?
 
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..And again Walter fixed his file and being a completionist I had to fix this thread as well. Now OLS and Shakespeare are even stronger, wealthy territory I also got a buff and some old impacts are changed.
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updated with some changes I previously missed (Development of Politics, Impact of Colonies, Military Pact/Alliance, Columbus).
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I see none of these changes in the main post. Are you sure they went through? Or am I crazy?
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croloris wrote:
I see none of these changes in the main post. Are you sure they went through? Or am I crazy?
You mean the ones from my last post (the two events, the pact and Columbus)? Because I can see them on the thread...
 
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croloris wrote:
I see none of these changes in the main post. Are you sure they went through? Or am I crazy?

+1 see nothing in the main post (date of modifications hasn't changed)
 
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powerwis wrote:
croloris wrote:
I see none of these changes in the main post. Are you sure they went through? Or am I crazy?

+1 see nothing in the main post (date of modifications hasn't changed)

Months later, I see the changes, with this edit timestamp:

Quote:
Last edited Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:04 am (Total Number of Edits: 14)

It was likely a caching issue that prevented poweris and croloris from seeing the edits at the time.
 
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