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Subject: Canadian Math Trade - Winter 2015 Edition - Discussion rss

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Vast Aire
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Here we are with the final Canadian math trade for 2015. Last chance to put up your unwanted games for trade to see what you might get back in return.

Please make sure to read through all the rules and pay attention to all posted dates/times. You MUST have a Canadian mailing address to participate in this Math Trade.

For anyone new to Math Trades be sure to check out the following thread for a video tutorial on math trades.

Math Trade Video Tutorials

Trade Geeklist: Canadian Math Trade - Winter 2015 Edition

Request GeekList: Canadian Math Trade - Winter 2015 Edition - Requests


Submissions Dates/Times:

Posting Games: Monday November 23rd 4:00 PM EST to Tuesday December 1st 11:00 AM EST

Want List Submissions: Tuesday December 1st 11:00 AM EST to Thursday December 3rd 9:00 PM EST

Results posted shortly thereafter.


Rules (Please read carefully):

1. Board Games, RPG's, Video Games and items outside the scope of BGG are all permitted.

2. There is a limit of one (1) Geek Gold entry per person and GeekGold arbitrage is NOT allowed. Gift Certificates are NOT allowed for this math trade. Neither are cash offerings.

3. Non-game entries must be added using "Outside the Scope of BGG" (Game ID 23953). Make sure to use the +altname+ brief description -altname- format in the description of your item for it to properly show up in the OLWLG.

4. You must describe the condition of your games as accurately as possible. This includes both the box and it's contents.

5. You must clearly state the editions and languages of all games posted. Do not just state "edition as posted", as pictures do not show up in the OLWLG.

6. Shipping - You shall be required to cover full shipping to any location within Canada.

7. Do NOT delete any entries after they have been submitted. Just include a blank wantlist for that particular item instead.

8. Please do NOT include links to any other games (or items) in your entries, so that they are not misleadingly displayed as sweeteners in the OLWLG.

9. Use of the On-Line Want List Generator (OLWLG) is required for submissions. Refer to the following document for help:
http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/OLWLG

10. If you have been reported as a bad trader, do NOT try to participate. Any entries made will be removed.

11. Any other questions or issues, just ask.


Software Used: TradeMaximizer 1.4 (with duplicate protection) SEED=1234567, ITERATIONS=1000

%Options%
Deadline-Offers: Tuesday, December 1st, 11:00 AM EST
Deadline-Wants: Thursday, December 3rd, 9:00 PM EST
%End%
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Vast Aire
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Results (OLWLG) = http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/trades-summary.cgi?listid=...

Results (TXT) = http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/199949-results-official.tx...

Wants = http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/199949-officialwants.txt
 
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Vast Aire
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Reserved #2
 
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Vast Aire
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Take note that a change has just been made to the rules of this math trade. Gift Certificates will not be allowed in this math trade due to the following note received by the BGG admins.

wrote:
Any Math Trader who accepts a cash value trade (either in the form of GC or actual cash) is conducting a direct sale through the site and is subject to the associated commission fee required by the Terms of Service just as with any other sale.


Since I don't wish to police this new policy for this particular math trade, it was easiest to just exclude them outright.
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William Wood
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Not a "direct sale"; that's not how Math Trades work. I think of GCs as lubricators for the Math Trades, but if they don't like it, I guess we'll see how it goes without them.

I wonder if they have any actual data on "lost sales".
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mateenyweeny
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Not direct because I'm not getting anything back from the person I'm giving a GC to, right?

Strange that they're taking this stance.
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Jonathan Brodeur
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Very sad news.. Gift certificates truly help the amount of trades we can get..
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Sara VanderWal
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Cannibal Ox wrote:
Take note that a change has just been made to the rules of this math trade. Gift Certificates will not be allowed in this math trade due to the following note received by the BGG admins.

wrote:
Any Math Trader who accepts a cash value trade (either in the form of GC or actual cash) is conducting a direct sale through the site and is subject to the associated commission fee required by the Terms of Service just as with any other sale.


Since I don't wish to police this new policy for this particular math trade, it was easiest to just exclude them outright.


Thank you for catching this change in BGG's policy at the beginning of this trade before it affected anyone's submissions! It's a shame that enough participants continued to abuse the allowance of gift cards and trade cash, forcing BGG to make this change and enforce their commission across the board. This will be difficult for organizers to enforce, so it's totally understandable that you've decided to disallow gift cards this time around! Thank you for continuing to run these trades!
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Rueben S
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Volt26 wrote:
Very sad news.. Gift certificates truly help the amount of trades we can get..


Maybe I have just missed it but I always see a ton of GCs leftover after a math r Rade. Will this really affect participation? I'm hoping not.
 
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Shane
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If there's a game in the trade that I want, and it's value is say.. $40. I would need to have a game to trade away of at least $40. Plus pay for shipping it ~$15. So I "spend" $55 for a $40 game (which, granting, the sending owner also has to pay for shipping it to me.) However, from my end, if I offer a $40 gift certificate, then the $40 game costs me $40.

Alternatively, if the $40 game might be something I really, really want, I have the opportunity to offer say a $50 or even higher GC, to ensure acquiring that game. The only game in my collection with potential value that high that I would even consider trading away might be Xia. Anything else is either worth $10 or I am keeping it.

I think the BGG ruling is ridiculous. This will pretty much take me out of math trades.
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Terence Fuller
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this is my first Math Trade that I've participated in but I have watched quite a few during the year. To me the biggest thrill of these Math Trades is seeing which games come up. There have been some in other trades that have surprised me and almost wanted me to throw in to "compete" for the game. I think getting rid of GG or gift certificates is a good thing. My thoughts are that if I wanted to sell a game, I'd just sell the game through the marketplace, on an auction or eBay. I want to discover a game that someone doesn't want and then hope someone out there wants one of the games I have on offer, that seems to me to be the whole point of these Math Trades.
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SD40 wrote:
If there's a game in the trade that I want, and it's value is say.. $40. I would need to have a game to trade away of at least $40. Plus pay for shipping it ~$15. So I "spend" $55 for a $40 game (which, granting, the sending owner also has to pay for shipping it to me.) However, from my end, if I offer a $40 gift certificate, then the $40 game costs me $40.

Alternatively, if the $40 game might be something I really, really want, I have the opportunity to offer say a $50 or even higher GC, to ensure acquiring that game. The only game in my collection with potential value that high that I would even consider trading away might be Xia. Anything else is either worth $10 or I am keeping it.

I think the BGG ruling is ridiculous. This will pretty much take me out of math trades.


Math trades can still allow gcs, they just need to go through the marketplace.

Quote:
if the $40 game might be something I really, really want, I have the opportunity to offer say a $50


The 3% on $50 is $1.50.
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mateenyweeny
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SaraCV wrote:
It's a shame that enough participants continued to abuse the allowance of gift cards and trade cash, forcing BGG to make this change and enforce their commission across the board.


Can you tell me what kind of "abuse" you have seen? It seems like the BGG policy quoted above does not differentiate between GCs and cash and they are both subject to BGG commission.
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Michael Valenta
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It's hard to say what the lack of GCs will result in. There will certainly be less trades but it is hard to say how many less.

Just to throw some numbers out there, in the previous Canadian math trade, there were 10 trade loops that resulted in 503 trades. Of those loops, 4 did not involve GCs and these 4 loops accounted for 14 trades (so the loops were small). The other 6 loops that did involve GCs accounted for the other 489 trades (so the loops were big). It appears there were 35 GCs involved in those loops.

So, if you believe that the GCs were essential for those loops, then there could potentially be a huge impact. However, it is more likely that the lack of GCs will result in a larger number of smaller loops. Time will tell what the actual impact is.

P.S. see http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/194820-results-official.tx... for the data I used to get the above numbers.
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Ryan Newell
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It'll be too bad if there's a reduction in the number of trades that occur but I totally get why BGG would make this decision. They run a user marketplace as part of their business and this practice did kinda circumvent that. It's using their site in a way that potentially keeps money from finding its way into their wallets. I can't blame a business for making a sound business decision.
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mateenyweeny
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indigopotter wrote:
Math trades can still allow gcs, they just need to go through the marketplace.

Quote:
if the $40 game might be something I really, really want, I have the opportunity to offer say a $50


The 3% on $50 is $1.50.


Hopefully in the future we can consider allowing GC with the requirement that all transactions go through the marketplace. If that's BGGs policy, it's only fair and people can decide if they want to include them, knowing that they have to pay commission to bGG. I don't think that it is up to the trade organizers to police participants but they should definitely remind users of the rules.
 
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Tucker Taylor
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slinkydink wrote:
I don't think that it is up to the trade organizers to police participants but they should definitely remind users of the rules.

The question is whether BGG thinks it's up to the trade organisers to police the participants.
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The Barefoot Killer wrote:
It'll be too bad if there's a reduction in the number of trades that occur but I totally get why BGG would make this decision. They run a user marketplace as part of their business and this practice did kinda circumvent that. It's using their site in a way that potentially keeps money from finding its way into their wallets. I can't blame a business for making a sound business decision.


It's actually an interesting situation because unlike an auction or a marketplace sale, the actual trade doesn't fully go through BGG. If a BGG admin wanted to know what trades were completed, they would have to log onto OLWLG to find out. That's why I'm happy to throw some GG to JeffyJeff every now and then because that tool is such an integral part of math trades.
 
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JazzFish wrote:
slinkydink wrote:
I don't think that it is up to the trade organizers to police participants but they should definitely remind users of the rules.

The question is whether BGG thinks it's up to the trade organisers to police the participants.


Sure, but nothing in the above quoted statement BGG that indicates that they do.
It is possible that there is more to the BGG statement than was shared here but I would be surprised.
 
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Francisco Colmenares
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I love it when I see old games of mine up in Math Trades. You can actually end up with your old game again. It allows me to go all Star Trek IV when my wife asks:

- "Wasn't that game you traded away a birthday present?
- "And it will be again, that's the beauty of Math Trades"
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Michael P.
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Instead of offering a GC could we just offer a new game of a certain value including shipping? This would satisfy the bgg rule that a game for a game is a trade and not a sale.
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Jonathan Brodeur
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beefarm wrote:
Instead of offering a GC could we just offer a new game of a certain value including shipping? This would satisfy the bgg rule that a game for a game is a trade and not a sale.


I like that idea. If user A won a 30$ "gift card" that way and tells you to buy Agricola for 45$, you simply request him to pay you the difference via paypal and then you buy it for him and have the game shipped to his address.

Wouldn't that be perfectly fine and under BGG's rules?
 
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If you make the listing for a $30 gc, and someone wants that $30 gc, it's a dollar amount (sale). If you make the listing for Agricola, it's up to you whether you box up a copy or order it from an online store.
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Francisco Colmenares
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I guess one way around that would be to offer a listing: One Boardgame with cost no more than $X including shipping, I will get it and ship it to you.
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Michael P.
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colmenarez wrote:
I guess one way around that would be to offer a listing: One Boardgame with cost no more than $X including shipping, I will get it and ship it to you.


This is what I was thinking, but would also add that I'd be willing to exceed the amount if the recipient would cover the difference via paypal.


Curious to see what CannibalOx has to say about this.
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