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JeffyJeff wrote:
A skinned math nerd wrote:
I don't mind the commission too much, but this is rather inelegant. The "buyer" doesn't "buy" the game that the "seller" "sells" in the math trade.

inelegant? makes sense to me... person who chooses to put cash on their want list is essentially "selling" their game... when I sell through BGG marketplace I as seller pay the commission not any else

But the person sending the game might get Settlers of Catan, while the person sending the game sends BusenMemo, so no, it is not a direct sale and there is no sensible way to book this in the Marketplace without generic items. While that is just a nuisance, it's unclear how the person sending the money should give feedback about the person sending the game.
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A skinned math nerd wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
A skinned math nerd wrote:
I don't mind the commission too much, but this is rather inelegant. The "buyer" doesn't "buy" the game that the "seller" "sells" in the math trade.

inelegant? makes sense to me... person who chooses to put cash on their want list is essentially "selling" their game... when I sell through BGG marketplace I as seller pay the commission not any else

But the person sending the game might get Settlers of Catan, while the person sending the game sends BusenMemo, so no, it is not a direct sale and there is no sensible way to book this in the Marketplace without generic items. While that is just a nuisance, it's unclear how the person sending the money should give feedback about the person sending the game.

huh? if th person sending the game gets a game in return then they are not getting cash in return and hence no commission...

you only pay a commission if you both put cash items on your want list *and* that ends up what you get. very straight forward and sensible
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See non-US MTs. Cash was present and up to the MT mods. For US MTs, yes, cash has been off the table, but has been used covertly.

And really... isn't a GC just cash slightly mutated?

Admje14 wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
You would have to ask the specific MT moderator that question, as it is up to them. They run it, they set the rules.

Admje14 wrote:
Does this mean that cash is now allowed to be involved in a math trade instead of just gift cards?


Not true. Previously, cash was banned by BGG but Gift Cards were not, as cash would have been subject to the 3%. Now that Gift Cards are subject to the 3%, it makes me wonder if BGG has lifted the across the board ban on cash in math trades. If so, then your statement will be correct going forward.
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From years of selling, I find marketplace values marginally valuable, but knowing that so many sales slip through the cracks with datapoints that definitely skew from market data, I only use them as a general guide. In the end, the game sells at the selling price or it doesn't. Not everyone uses the MP data as a hard-rule, and those that do, usually do lose out on a game they may want... as someone with more resources or more price fluidity grabs it.

In no way do I deny that some buyers use the MP values as a hard rule, but I think they are following a false star.

A skinned math nerd wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
A skinned math nerd wrote:
I don't mind the commission too much, but this is rather inelegant. The "buyer" doesn't "buy" the game that the "seller" "sells" in the math trade.

inelegant? makes sense to me... person who chooses to put cash on their want list is essentially "selling" their game... when I sell through BGG marketplace I as seller pay the commission not any else

But the person sending the game might get Settlers of Catan, while the person sending the game sends BusenMemo, so no, it is not a direct sale and there is no sensible way to book this in the Marketplace without generic items. While that is just a nuisance, it's unclear how the person sending the money should give feedback about the person sending the game.
 
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The receiver should always calculate the two additional costs as best they can when adding a GC- the 3% charge and the cost to ship in relation to the zero shipping costs of the GC sender. In general, I will add $15 to the valuation of my item and then find that level of GC (game is worth $30 to me, so don't accept anything less than a $45 GC)... essentially, this makes sub $20 GCs worthless to me, except for garbage/cheap games.

That's my personal rule and not sure how others handle it. Yes, I do realize that tacking on value for the lack of shipping costs don't make a hill of beans to the sender, but I like to think that this helps slightly right the overall valuation equity between items.

Yes, I do realize that's a fool's pursuit, so its more a rationalization.

yaverot wrote:
The one thing I dislike about this policy, is that it is the receiver is responsible for the 3% instead of the sender.

In math trades, the sender is one who responsible for adequately describing the item listed, making sure it conforms to rules, and has to replace the item when lost in transit... gets to stick the receiver with a 3% fee; when they're the one who's going to list multiple GCs anyway and can handle them all as a single transaction.

I realize I'm not going to change the mind of anyone important, as my suggested policy would be an exception to general policy that MTs have gotten pulled into. So venting done unless questioned in a more appropriate topic.

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Another rabbit hole that isn't worth going down - feedback/ratings. I have had at least 100+ trades/sales that went swimmingly for the recipient, but no feedback left for me.

A skinned math nerd wrote:
I don't mind the commission too much, but this is rather inelegant. The "buyer" doesn't "buy" the game that the "seller" "sells" in the math trade.

The person sending the money most likely gets another game than the one that the person sending the game ships. The OCD trait in me wants to list the sale as the respective game that was sent out, so the pricing data is relevant for the price history as well, but the buyer might want to not say that they "bought" this game. So you're forced to use generic items.

Also, I wonder how ratings for these kinds of Marketplace offers should be handled. Of course, the person who sends out the money can expect a positive rating once the money arrives, but what about the person sending out the game? Can they expect a positive rating for it, and on what basis?

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darthhugo wrote:
And really... isn't a GC just cash slightly mutated?

lol, try using your cool stuff or MM gift cert at your local grocery store then you will have your answer
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Who else buys anything but games? That just seems odd.

JeffyJeff wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
And really... isn't a GC just cash slightly mutated?

lol, try using your cool stuff or MM gift cert at your local grocery store then you will have your answer
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JeffyJeff wrote:
A skinned math nerd wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
A skinned math nerd wrote:
I don't mind the commission too much, but this is rather inelegant. The "buyer" doesn't "buy" the game that the "seller" "sells" in the math trade.

inelegant? makes sense to me... person who chooses to put cash on their want list is essentially "selling" their game... when I sell through BGG marketplace I as seller pay the commission not any else

But the person sending the game might get Settlers of Catan, while the person sending the game sends BusenMemo, so no, it is not a direct sale and there is no sensible way to book this in the Marketplace without generic items. While that is just a nuisance, it's unclear how the person sending the money should give feedback about the person sending the game.

huh? if th person sending the game gets a game in return then they are not getting cash in return and hence no commission...

you only pay a commission if you both put cash items on your want list *and* that ends up what you get. very straight forward and sensible
Jeff, person A sends money to person B. A gets a game, but not from B. B sends a game, but not to A. B gets something from A and can give positive feedback about A (or not). What about feedback for B?

I am not talking about commission as you might not have noticed. I am talking about how and why ratings should be given in the Marketplace.
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As the very first post from the BGG admin instructs, you don't have to specify a game from the math trade. No need to argue over which game makes sense.

The person receiving the money makes a dummy miscellaneous item in the marketplace. The person sending the money buys it. The person getting cash/GC will thereby be responsible for paying the commission.

Feedback seems unimportant, just like trade feedback from math trade one-way trades are unimportant.
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Much easier:

I create a 'misc accessory' listing in the Marketplace for the total cash amount of all cash 'trades' I receive. *I* buy it.

One transaction; no need to rely on someone else doing anything to discharge MY liability for the commission; no need for me to have then also confirm the item just bought that I'd already listed so that it could be bought; easily auditable; no-one else need do anything.

--
In a normal trade I might receive 4 cash offers, in the WW Promo MT six or eight. I'm NOT going to make 8 separate transactions each for $6 or $8 or $10. I'll just make one for say $64. However, for these small-value trades where the shipping cost is a disportionately high fraction of the value of the item (sometimes as much as 100% or more) I will deduct shipping costs so that BGG do get their dues just as if I'd sold the item.
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tumorous wrote:
Feedback seems unimportant, just like trade feedback from math trade one-way trades are unimportant.
Sure it seems unimportant. I expect that there will be some hate-ratings from people that sent money and didn't like the game they were getting in the Math trade, as well as people giving positive feedback by default to others that failed to send their item. These are some pretty big IFs, but I had some unresponsible people give negative feedback for me on the marketplace before for similar idiotic reasons, too. I'd much rather like to get this two-people approach out of the process, as it is not a direct sale between the two parties and as one party has no way of giving accurate feedback because of that.

Anyways, I'll be doing it like proposed then, and if there is going to be trouble over this, I hope and am sure that the mods will sort it out then.
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enoon wrote:
Much easier:

I create a 'misc accessory' listing in the Marketplace for the total cash amount of all cash 'trades' I receive. *I* buy it.
That sounds like what I want, yes. Is it possible to buy Marketplace items from yourself?

Let's be honest, what was proposed was a workaround to generate commission for money offers in Math Trade, and this is not a lesser way to do this.
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A skinned math nerd wrote:
I am not talking about commission as you might not have noticed. I am talking about how and why ratings should be given in the Marketplace.

ah, I was definitely confused, sorry, we now return to regular programming
 
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darthhugo wrote:
See non-US MTs. Cash was present and up to the MT mods. For US MTs, yes, cash has been off the table, but has been used covertly.

And really... isn't a GC just cash slightly mutated?


In some ways yes, but not all.
 
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enoon wrote:
Much easier:

I create a 'misc accessory' listing in the Marketplace for the total cash amount of all cash 'trades' I receive. *I* buy it.

One transaction; no need to rely on someone else doing anything to discharge MY liability for the commission; no need for me to have then also confirm the item just bought that I'd already listed so that it could be bought; easily auditable; no-one else need do anything.

--
In a normal trade I might receive 4 cash offers, in the WW Promo MT six or eight. I'm NOT going to make 8 separate transactions each for $6 or $8 or $10. I'll just make one for say $64. However, for these small-value trades where the shipping cost is a disportionately high fraction of the value of the item (sometimes as much as 100% or more) I will deduct shipping costs so that BGG do get their dues just as if I'd sold the item.


Deducting the postage seems reasonable as that's exactly what you do at auctions as well. That should be an official rule.
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Well, it's been suggested by MMM that one NOT deduct shipping as the commission on the shipping is a trivial amount. It is a trivial amount true, but there are matters of principle involved, and the effect is disproportionate on these small value items in the Promo Trade.

If one follows my plan to create one's own single marketplace listing where the item description summarises the values received (copied from the OLWLG) and the itemised shipping for each item then it is both accurate and auditable, a near-perfect solution.
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smithlucas wrote:
enoon wrote:
Much easier:

I create a 'misc accessory' listing in the Marketplace for the total cash amount of all cash 'trades' I receive. *I* buy it.

One transaction; no need to rely on someone else doing anything to discharge MY liability for the commission; no need for me to have then also confirm the item just bought that I'd already listed so that it could be bought; easily auditable; no-one else need do anything.

--
In a normal trade I might receive 4 cash offers, in the WW Promo MT six or eight. I'm NOT going to make 8 separate transactions each for $6 or $8 or $10. I'll just make one for say $64. However, for these small-value trades where the shipping cost is a disportionately high fraction of the value of the item (sometimes as much as 100% or more) I will deduct shipping costs so that BGG do get their dues just as if I'd sold the item.


Deducting the postage seems reasonable as that's exactly what you do at auctions as well. That should be an official rule.


In geeklist auctions, listings are for the amount bid, for the same reasons (clarity, simplicity). We don't deduct the shipping for "free shipping" auctions. In GeekList auction there's a paragraph about it, to help you choose whether to offer free shipping, or a separate shipping price on top of the sale price:

Quote:
Marketplace listings should be for the amount of the winning bid. There are separate fields for the bid amount and the shipping amount. To avoid paying commission on shipping costs, you may specify "shipping costs will be calculated and added to the purchase price" or offer flat rate shipping (such as "$10 for the first item, $5 for the second, $2 for the third").
 
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Any analogy to Auctions breaks down as BGG are classifying cash receipts in MTs as 'direct sales'. I have no problem with that. Moreover I don't recall seeing (m)any European auction items which offer free shipping.

Remember, the conversation is not about any objection to paying BGG a 3% commission on the net cash received for shipping a game in a Maths Trade - it is just about methodology.

I also have some concerns about heavy-handed modding of users who are not aware of these changes and fail to adhere to policy until it becomes widely known and habitual practice. (Edit: I no longer have any concerns in this particualr regard https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/21139425#21139425)
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indigopotter wrote:
smithlucas wrote:
Deducting the postage seems reasonable as that's exactly what you do at auctions as well. That should be an official rule.
In geeklist auctions, listings are for the amount bid, for the same reasons (clarity, simplicity). We don't deduct the shipping for "free shipping" auctions. In GeekList auction there's a paragraph about it, to help you choose whether to offer free shipping, or a separate shipping price on top of the sale price:
Quote:
Marketplace listings should be for the amount of the winning bid. There are separate fields for the bid amount and the shipping amount. To avoid paying commission on shipping costs, you may specify "shipping costs will be calculated and added to the purchase price" or offer flat rate shipping (such as "$10 for the first item, $5 for the second, $2 for the third").


Easily dealt with; just add some boilerplate text to every item you list in a MT:

"The value of any cash offer received for this item covers the cost of the item plus the cost of shipping which will be accounted for in calculating commission due to BGG".

I haven't done that in my UK MT listing - but then I only learned about the new policy AFTER I'd listed most of my items, and I'm not going to annoy folks by triggering their subscriptions for a boilerplate change to my many items.
 
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enoon wrote:
Easily dealt with; just add some boilerplate text to every item you list in a MT:

"The value of any cash offer received for this item covers the cost of the item plus the cost of shipping which will be accounted for in calculating commission due to BGG".


Please see my quote of Octavian's answer to this issue earlier in the thread:

indigopotter wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
4. since BGG marketplace doesn't subject the shipping cost to the commish, math traders receiving cash (or equiv) for a tangible item (game, etc) that needs shipping can subject their shipping cost before calculating the commish?


Octavian answered that in an earlier thread, so I'm quoting him here:

Octavian wrote:
For sake of simplicity and transparency I think it would be best to list the cost as the full value of the amount being received. In this example the commission difference is $0.33 - if that amount is a deal breaker for someone then don't trade for GC/cash.
 
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indigopotter wrote:
enoon wrote:
Easily dealt with; just add some boilerplate text to every item you list in a MT:

"The value of any cash offer received for this item covers the cost of the item plus the cost of shipping which will be accounted for in calculating commission due to BGG".


Please see my quote of Octavian's answer to this issue earlier in the thread:

indigopotter wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
4. since BGG marketplace doesn't subject the shipping cost to the commish, math traders receiving cash (or equiv) for a tangible item (game, etc) that needs shipping can subject their shipping cost before calculating the commish?


Octavian answered that in an earlier thread, so I'm quoting him here:

Octavian wrote:
For sake of simplicity and transparency I think it would be best to list the cost as the full value of the amount being received. In this example the commission difference is $0.33 - if that amount is a deal breaker for someone then don't trade for GC/cash.


Yes I read that. I read that he thought that on the basis of simplicity and transparency. Well, my way is a lot simpler and a lot more transparent.

I'm sure he'll think again when he has had more chance to consider the issue more thoroughly. After all, he rightly observes that it's a trivial amount and so BGG should not be overly concerned at which methodology is followed as long as it's accurate, transparent and sufficiently simple not to be an obstacle to trade.

It's not about the money after all, is it?
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enoon wrote:
I also have some concerns about heavy-handed modding of users who are not aware of these changes and fail to adhere to policy until it becomes widely known and habitual practice.
Thanks to this post https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/21139425#21139425 I no longer have any concerns in this regard.
 
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smithlucas wrote:
the UK MT


mpb2000 wrote:
so people don't have to stumble upon it by chance


enoon wrote:
I also have some concerns about heavy-handed modding of users who are not aware of these changes and fail to adhere to policy until it becomes widely known and habitual practice.


Quoting myself from my post on a parallel thread:

indigopotter wrote:
I've been geekmailing individual list creators when their heading is missing the bit about the marketplace, like I do for geeklist auctions. I geekmailed less than an hour and a half after the UK list was posted (it was posted Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:19 pm my time, and I geekmailed Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:47 pm). This is what I said

Quote:
Any Math Trader who accepts a cash value trade (gift certificate, PayPal, etc.) is conducting a direct sale through the site and is subject to the associated commission fee required by the Terms of Service just as with any other sale. Which means, any cash value trade needs to go through the BGG marketplace. The easiest thing to do is for the person receiving the GC/PayPal/etc to create a Geek Market listing (Miscellaneous Game Accessory is a good default option) and have someone (like the person sending the GC/cash) buy it. Please edit your header so any user who selects that they will accept a cash value trade is aware of this. Thank you.


That's all I asked. I didn't say anything about following up on transactions. As far as I know, each user is responsible for themselves. And when I check a user's transactions, and it seems like something is missing, I send a geekmail like this (only it would be tailored for math trades and not auctions):

Quote:
The easiest way to handle auction commissions is to make a single Marketplace listing under Miscellaneous Game Accessory for the grand total of all the paid winning bids. You may send Octavian the link to that listing to "buy" it. The system will automatically calculate your commission total. You can then pay what is owed through http://www.boardgamegeek.com/bggmcommission.php

If anyone still wants their individual transactions tracked through the system you can set it up with them as a one-way trade.

Please let me or Octavian know if you have any questions.


or

Quote:
Your geeklist auction ended ______. I was checking in to see if I could help get it wrapped up. I don't see a listing for ______ - if it's been paid for and shipped, you can make a listing for Octavian to buy. Please let me or Octavian know if we can help, or if you have any questions.


(both from actual geekmails)

If I don't get a response, or if they tell me I smell of elderberries, Octavian will give a nudge so they have a chance to fix it. I've never heard of someone being banned for a missing marketplace transaction. For the few cases where people have been given chances to get something wrapped up but didn't, there have been freezes on some account functions until everything was taken care of. But we'd prefer things were fixed and it never gets to that point.


https://boardgamegeek.com/article/21139425#21139425
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Quote:
The easiest way to handle auction commissions is to make a single Marketplace listing under Miscellaneous Game Accessory for the grand total of all the paid winning bids. You may send Octavian the link to that listing to "buy" it. The system will automatically calculate your commission total. You can then pay what is owed through http://www.boardgamegeek.com/bggmcommission.php

If anyone still wants their individual transactions tracked through the system you can set it up with them as a one-way trade.

Please let me or Octavian know if you have any questions.

This is terrific. I didn't know we could do this. So I don't have to make individual listings. Much more convenient.

...

Hmm, then again, the downside is that the Marketplace loses out on that information. I know I use the Marketplace price history to see how much a game sold for.

In any case, I'm happy to have the more convenient option at my disposal.
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