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enzo622 wrote:
Hmm, then again, the downside is that the Marketplace loses out on that information. I know I use the Marketplace price history to see how much a game sold for.

In any case, I'm happy to have the more convenient option at my disposal.
You also lose out on the very welcome functionality of the "Quick Marketplace Listing" (for Geeklist auction items) which sends a geekmail with a link to your buyer, so it's not necessarily a 'timesaver' depending on the circumstances of your auction results.
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Maybe this has already been discussed, but the information that would be disseminated to the marketplace is it actually information that you wouldn't want in that dataset. Because it's the seller that is logging the transaction it's not an acurate presentation of the demand side market movements. So for example I might swap my 100 dollar gift certificate for a copy of space hulk. But because of the way the math trade works the person who in the receiving my 100 dollar gift certificate (and logging it) might actually be trading away a copy of love letter. It isn't an accurate representation of any kind of market force that a copy of love letter sold for 100 dollars, but rather a influence of the way the math trade work.
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enzo622 wrote:
Hmm, then again, the downside is that the Marketplace loses out on that information. I know I use the Marketplace price history to see how much a game sold for.
We are in agreement over that, I've written the same thing on the previous page. And yes, doing "Quick Marketplace listings" for these items would be preferred, but unfortunately don't work.
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sirgalin wrote:
... I might swap my 100 dollar gift certificate ...
Of course, the upside of the new policy is that you can now simply offer cash instead of Gift Certificates. I don't think I've ever seen a Gift Certificate offered in a European Maths Trade.
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sirgalin wrote:
Maybe this has already been discussed, but the information that would be disseminated to the marketplace is it actually information that you wouldn't want in that dataset. Because it's the seller that is logging the transaction it's not an acurate presentation of the demand side market movements. So for example I might swap my 100 dollar gift certificate for a copy of space hulk. But because of the way the math trade works the person who in the receiving my 100 dollar gift certificate (and logging it) might actually be trading away a copy of love letter. It isn't an accurate representation of any kind of market force that a copy of love letter sold for 100 dollars, but rather a influence of the way the math trade work.


In the step-by-step in my first post of the thread, I suggested using Miscellaneous Game Accessory.
 
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indigopotter wrote:
sirgalin wrote:
Maybe this has already been discussed, but the information that would be disseminated to the marketplace is it actually information that you wouldn't want in that dataset. Because it's the seller that is logging the transaction it's not an acurate presentation of the demand side market movements. So for example I might swap my 100 dollar gift certificate for a copy of space hulk. But because of the way the math trade works the person who in the receiving my 100 dollar gift certificate (and logging it) might actually be trading away a copy of love letter. It isn't an accurate representation of any kind of market force that a copy of love letter sold for 100 dollars, but rather a influence of the way the math trade work.


In the step-by-step in my first post of the thread, I suggested using Miscellaneous Game Accessory.

There are two subjects under discussion here. The part I quoted specifically was about "Auctions" not math trades.

For auctions, if I use Miscellaneous Accessory, I deny the Marketplace data about the game's sale price. It's easier for me, but I'm not feeding data into the very tool that I myself value and use.
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enzo622 wrote:
There are two subjects under discussion here.
There probably shouldn't be

The original topic is capable of causing sufficient head scratching on its own.
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enoon wrote:
sirgalin wrote:
... I might swap my 100 dollar gift certificate ...
Of course, the upside of the new policy is that you can now simply offer cash instead of Gift Certificates. I don't think I've ever seen a Gift Certificate offered in a European Maths Trade.

I don't think the GC vs cash thing is related to the BGG commission at all.

AFAIK, offering cash in Math Trades might be illegal in some US states (seen as a "lottery" or something.) That's why people offer gift certificates of famous retailers (partially chosen by the recipient.)
So, it is a legal issue concerning state law, not BGG's terms and conditions.

I don't know any details, but it isn't relevant to us Europeans anyway.

(Edit: that's a bit off topic, sorry.whistle)
 
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Sorry, I wasn't clear in my last post. I was just replying to the concern over this system failing to collect market data. I think doing it through the Misc. category is a fine workaround and we shouldn't lament any missing data points because of it (for reasons outlined above). Some day I hope bgg better automates it's commission system, but until then, things are chugging along A-OK.

I've been running large auctions on bgg for years and nearly always process them as a batch like what is described above. I'm not convinced that this system has a negative impact on pricing data. I think there is enough marketplace data generated by regular sales that auction sales are pulled towards the trend line. This is especially true because it's a lot easier to buy and sell directly through the marketplace than in a geekauction. So the boom and bust cycles are clear from any of the market history graphs. Auctions tend to have other factors going on that can cause data to skew.

That said, the one-click add feature that came online a few months ago, is likely injecting a lot more auction data into the system than ever existed before.
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sirgalin wrote:
So for example I might swap my 100 dollar gift certificate for a copy of space hulk. But because of the way the math trade works the person who in the receiving my 100 dollar gift certificate (and logging it) might actually be trading away a copy of love letter.

do you really think that is realistic? have you actually seen that in modern math trading? not counting someone making a huge mistakes in their want lists of course

realistically the person receiving a $100 GC/cash is going to be sending out an item whose market value is close to that or less... not the other way around
 
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JeffyJeff wrote:
sirgalin wrote:
So for example I might swap my 100 dollar gift certificate for a copy of space hulk. But because of the way the math trade works the person who in the receiving my 100 dollar gift certificate (and logging it) might actually be trading away a copy of love letter.

do you really think that is realistic? have you actually seen that in modern math trading? not counting someone making a huge mistakes in their want lists of course

realistically the person receiving a $100 GC/cash is going to be sending out an item whose market value is close to that or less... not the other way around


Certainly it was exaggerated to show a point. I do routinely see ~$20 items swap for ~$50 items. I chalk this up to people not generally knowing the cost of games or there being a disparity between those that buy their games retail and those that don't. There's also some number of "tried it and hated it" trades going on where people just don't care about value as a factor of retail. This "don't care" behavior seems to be amplified in no-ship trades, especially at the really big conventions -- I assume because those are people who don't regularly trade games over the internet and are just clearing their closet once a year. I also routinely see people take advantage of pre-bubble trading. I think the most famous example was the gentleman who scooped up about 10 copies of 1960 for next to nothing because we all thought they were tanga trash and he recognized that in fact the market had run out of copies. My personal best math trade achievement was an inprint euro game (~$35) for an ASL collection that I resold for about $600. This past year I traded Kanban for a Heroquest set that contained 3 expansions, one of which I sold for $250.

While, on the whole, I think most math trade transactions are equivalent or close to, the value in chains doesn't just disappear. If you track resale value through the big chains, you often come to one transaction that "gobbles up" those $5 or $10 disparities.
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You're right, Nathan! On the other hand, always when I looked at leftover Marketplace items with wildly differing prices from those that were the norm, those were auction items (whose value you might argue are closer to the truth than Math trade items), especially those with a very limited pool of bidders, like No-Ship auctions happening before a trade fair.
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sirgalin wrote:
I think the most famous example was the gentleman who scooped up about 10 copies of 1960 for next to nothing because we all thought they were tanga trash and he recognized that in fact the market had run out of copies.
In that case, had all of you put your items into the Marketplace, then you'd have asked for "Tanga trash" prices instead of "real market value" that only the one person could see, true? Nothing has an inherent value, it's just supply and demand, I don't see a fault here.
 
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I don't understand this policy.

Yes, I understand the intent of this policy, but the reality is that the OLWLG isn't the only tool used for Math Trading, just the only one that 100% utilizes BGG for the Math Trading.

This policy feels like it is discriminatory toward Math Trades that occur on BGG and utilize JeffyJeff's OLWLG. Other Math Trading tools that may also involve BGG users (but occur on non-BGG resources) are not subject to this policy (since they cannot be enforced nor can it be claimed that BGG users must be exclusive to BGG for all Math Trading purposes). As a result, it feels like this will serve to promote non-BGG Math Trading tools and move Math Traders away from BGG Math Trading tools like the OLWLG that are subject to the new fees and restrictions that create a unfair competitive advantage for non-BGG tools.

Yes, loyalty and the honor system may sustain the current system for the foreseeable future, but that is likely only until people become aware of alternatives and find reasons for moving their Math Trading activities away from BGG. Is that really what BGG is trying to promote? Short term gains at the cost of long-term user engagement??
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rgatti wrote:
Other Math Trading tools that may also involve BGG users (but occur on non-BGG resources) are not subject to this policy
None of these tools can compete with the functionality offered by being run on BGG nor the user base offered by BGG. These other tools will have ways of monetising themselves.
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rgatti wrote:
Yes, loyalty and the honor system may sustain the current system for the foreseeable future, but that is likely only until people become aware of alternatives and find reasons for moving their Math Trading activities away from BGG. Is that really what BGG is trying to promote? Short term gains at the cost of long-term user engagement??

And yet, despite marketplace commissions existing for approximately forever, people still buy and sell on BGG. You're dramatically overestimating the effect of this policy.
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I agree. Still, Marketplace items takes shipping into account. As does the commission you have to pay for auctions here on BGG. IIRC, the commission for auctions is handled exactly the same as described by enoon before.
 
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A skinned math nerd wrote:
I agree. Still, Marketplace items takes shipping into account. As does the commission you have to pay for auctions here on BGG. IIRC, the commission for auctions is handled exactly the same as described by enoon before.


Suggestion to solve the shipping cost problem (MT traders pay commission on postage, others don't:
Since dividing the sum into shipping costs and real value of a game is difficult, why not go for a flatrate option:
Say an average math trader pays about 50 % of the game's value for shipping. Now there could be a flatrate option of paying a 2% commission for a special marketplace item only used for math trades.

Calculation example:
I sell a game for $ 50. Normally (aka in a BGG auction or at the marketplace), I'd pay a 3 % commission, that makes for 0.03 x $ 50= $ 1.50 commission for BGG

Now I am offering the game in a math trade and I am receiving $ 75 for it, however, I have to pay for shipping myself out of that sum. A 2 % commission would lead to the same result as above: 0.02 x $ 75 = $ 1.50 commission for BGG
(as opposed to $ 2.25 with the 3 % rule.)

(If 50 % shipping cost is unrealistic, the numbers would of course have to be adjusted accordingly.)

I don't know if that's technically practicable, that special marketplace item would of course have to be protected from abuse in non-MT transaction.
Obviously, the flatrate option doesn't take into account the individual postage rates, as that's the sense of a flatrate

Arbitrary "calculations" of users become unnecessary.
The unfair fact that Math traders have to pay commission on shipping costs and marketplace sellers don't is eliminated.


(It's not that I begrudge BGG the money or anything, it's just a suggestion of how to technically solve a fairness problem.)
 
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smithlucas wrote:
Suggestion to solve the shipping cost problem
I applaud the thought you've put into this, but you have over-engineered the solution.

I have a cash-trade in the current UK MT for £15. Because of the weight of the game this will cost me £5.28 (IIRC) to ship. After I've shipped it and I know the actual price I will be creating a Marketplace item showing the sales price as £9.72 and shipping of £5.28, annotating in the body of the item the shipping service used. Anyone who wants to audit it, can. It's accurate, transparent and easy to do.

It's completely coherent with BGGs commission policy in the marketplace whether by direct sale (which they say this is) or auction (which they do not say this is).
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smithlucas wrote:
MT traders pay commission on postage


Not when something is traded (game for game).

If it's a concern, you can select a game in trade, or put the item up on the marketplace/in an auction.
 
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enoon wrote:
I have a cash-trade in the current UK MT for £15. Because of the weight of the game this will cost me £5.28 (IIRC) to ship. After I've shipped it and I know the actual price I will be creating a Marketplace item showing the sales price as £9.72 and shipping of £5.28, annotating in the body of the item the shipping service used. Anyone who wants to audit it, can. It's accurate, transparent and easy to do.

It's completely coherent with BGGs commission policy in the marketplace whether by direct sale (which they say this is) or auction (which they do not say this is).




Octavian wrote:
For sake of simplicity and transparency I think it would be best to list the cost as the full value of the amount being received. In this example the commission difference is $0.33 - if that amount is a deal breaker for someone then don't trade for GC/cash.


from https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/20604753#20604753

(3% of 5.28 is 0.16)
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indigopotter wrote:
smithlucas wrote:
MT traders pay commission on postage

Not when something is traded (game for game).

If it's a concern, you can select a game in trade, or put the item up on the marketplace/in an auction.
of course, he meant "MT traders pay commission on postage when accepting cash offers" .... but you knew that. He wasn't talking about "when something is traded (game for game}" after all.
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smithlucas wrote:
Suggestion to solve the shipping cost problem
I think charging commission differently depending on how you do this is a step in the wrong direction. The shipping values that the users give for Marketplace items and auctions aren't being questioned, so the values that are being given for Math trade items should be accepted just as well. Of course, people that want to have it as easy as possible for them (or just don't care) may always opt to pay commission for the shipping as well.
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indigopotter wrote:
Octavian wrote:
For sake of simplicity and transparency I think it would be best to list the cost as the full value of the amount being received. In this example the commission difference is $0.33 - if that amount is a deal breaker for someone then don't trade for GC/cash.


from https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/20604753#20604753

(3% of 5.28 is 0.16)


Is that a deal breaker for BGG then? It's my 0.16, not yours.

So far it all looks a little money-grubbing to me over a trivial amount, whilst not respecting our principles and your own marketplace policy. .

I know you are trying to hold the party line, but it's not tenable.

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tumorous wrote:
rgatti wrote:
Yes, loyalty and the honor system may sustain the current system for the foreseeable future, but that is likely only until people become aware of alternatives and find reasons for moving their Math Trading activities away from BGG. Is that really what BGG is trying to promote? Short term gains at the cost of long-term user engagement??

And yet, despite marketplace commissions existing for approximately forever, people still buy and sell on BGG. You're dramatically overestimating the effect of this policy.
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