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Subject: Kickstarter Study rss

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Mike Hoyt

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More fodder for the occasional "Kickstarter is a fraud / is not" discussions

https://www.kickstarter.com/fulfillment?ref=hero

No word on University Of Pennsylvania weighing in on what is a wargame...
 
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Michael McLean
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What I think should be taken from this study:

1) Kickstarter isn't a pre-order system. It's about helping a creator fund an idea. It's an "investment" - although a non-traditional one - and investments sometimes fall.

2) Do your research before you invest. Giving money to a creator who has never run a project before is risky. Giving money to a creator who has never even backed a project before is even more risky. In all cases - but especially with first time creators with no previous kickstarter experience - make sure they have done their homework before you invest. It might even be a good idea to back a project at the $1 level if one is available, so you can ask questions directly on the project's comments page. You can always cancel or increase your pledge once your questions are answered.

Backing a kickstarter project isn't "safe" - but it can be lots of fun and very rewarding.
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Mike Hoyt

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Quote:
We want everyone to understand exactly how Kickstarter works — that it’s not a store, and that amid creativity and innovation there is risk and failure.


This the crux of the problem for many "backers". Because it certainly looks like a store, and several wargamer publishers are treating it as a store... but its not.

Which is OK, as long we all keep the quote in mind and do our research up front (oh, ouch, just realized...sorry). I've got a couple of overdue projects now, and am still fairly confident I'll see them. And don't relish the prospect of having to remind myself that I'm a "backer', not a "customer", but will swallow that bitter pill if I have to.
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Daniel Schulz
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gocamels wrote:

1) Kickstarter isn't a pre-order system. It's about helping a creator fund an idea. It's an "investment" - although a non-traditional one - and investments sometimes fall.


Why you telling us that? Shouldn't you be speaking to Cool Mini, or the countless other established companies that abuse that rule?
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Michael McLean
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horrido wrote:
gocamels wrote:

1) Kickstarter isn't a pre-order system. It's about helping a creator fund an idea. It's an "investment" - although a non-traditional one - and investments sometimes fall.


Why you telling us that? Shouldn't you be speaking to Cool Mini, or the countless other established companies that abuse that rule?


They wouldn't be able to abuse Kickstarter if people didn't give them a million dollars to do so. Personally, I don't back games from big companies like CMON, Cryptozoic, etc.

That's just my 2 cents, though. I know a lot of people spend $2-500 every time one of those companies puts out a new game with the promise of 20 new KS exclusive minis. If people would stop - or if Kickstarter would stop allowing the abuse, companies would stop using it as a pre-order system.

The problem is that Kickstarter gets a cut, and every time a CMON project gets a million dollars, Kickstarter gets a big check. So it isn't really in their interest to put a stop to it. That means it rests with people to vote with their wallets. Until that happens, it's going to be difficult for the little guys to get the attention their projects need, because most of the available capital is going to these big companies.

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Rex Stites
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blockhead wrote:
More fodder for the occasional "Kickstarter is a fraud / is not" discussions

https://www.kickstarter.com/fulfillment?ref=hero

No word on University Of Pennsylvania weighing in on what is a wargame...


Kickstarter is a means to raise capital for projects. Kickstarter/crowdfunding is no more a fraud than stocks/bonds/loans or any other more traditional means of raising capital is a "fraud." Are there projects on KS that are frauds? Sure, just as many other "investments" are frauds.
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Mike Hoyt

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rstites25 wrote:
blockhead wrote:
More fodder for the occasional "Kickstarter is a fraud / is not" discussions

https://www.kickstarter.com/fulfillment?ref=hero

No word on University Of Pennsylvania weighing in on what is a wargame...


Kickstarter is a means to raise capital for projects. Kickstarter/crowdfunding is no more a fraud than stocks/bonds/loans or any other more traditional means of raising capital is a "fraud." Are there projects on KS that are frauds? Sure, just as many other "investments" are frauds.


Oops, I didn't mean to steer us into the "fraud" argument. My bad.

I thought it was interesting that they hired (or at least allowed) an outside agency to look into it. First data I've seen (as opposed to anecdotes).

I was surprised at the ~10% not fulfilled figure, I wouldn't have known where to guess that one. And even more surprised that it was fairly consistent across all categories.

And a good reminder of something I've preached in the past, but kinda ignored lately, it is not a store with purchases. I've had nothing but good experiences, so I'm afraid I've grown a little complacent and trusting about getting my "rewards" (not products).
 
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Brian Morris
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When I walk into my FLGS and buy a game I have a 0% failure rate.
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Michael McLean
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mrbeankc wrote:
When I walk into my FLGS and buy a game I have a 0% failure rate.


That's better than me. I've bought some dogs at my flgs.
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Rich Keiser
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True. And some of the those games that are available for purchase would not been on the shelves, if it weren't for KS. Xia, Bullfrogs, Kremlin reprint, Underground Railroad, The Gallerist.

mrbeankc wrote:
When I walk into my FLGS and buy a game I have a 0% failure rate.
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Brian Morris
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darthhugo wrote:
True. And some of the those games that are available for purchase would not been on the shelves, if it weren't for KS. Xia, Bullfrogs, Kremlin reprint, Underground Railroad, The Gallerist.

mrbeankc wrote:
When I walk into my FLGS and buy a game I have a 0% failure rate.


And games like Up Front and The Doom That Came To Atlantic City...oh wait.

Boardgames were published longtime before Kickstarter was around. Yeah a few benefited from Kickstarter but it's hardly as if our hobby would be suffering without it.

Also some of those games that you mention would have been printed even without Kickstarter. Jolly Roger games for example who did Kremlin has been publishing games for over 10 years. They've published a couple dozen titles over that time such as Founding Fathers (super game btw) without Kickstarter. So it's a bit of a stretch to suggest they suddenly wouldn't be able to publish games without Kickstarter seeing as they've been doing just that for over a decade.
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Judd Vance
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mrbeankc wrote:
When I walk into my FLGS and buy a game I have a 0% failure rate.


When I went to my FLGS and bought Race for the Galaxy and Diplo.... sorry, I just can't say that word... it would have been better if they took my money, pulled out a gun, and made me leave. I would have lost my money, but at least I wouldn't have wasted hours of my life I can never get back and memories that I can never un-remember.
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Carsten Bohne
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airjudden wrote:
mrbeankc wrote:
When I walk into my FLGS and buy a game I have a 0% failure rate.


When I went to my FLGS and bought Race for the Galaxy and Diplo.... sorry, I just can't say that word... it would have been better if they took my money, pulled out a gun, and made me leave. I would have lost my money, but at least I wouldn't have wasted hours of my life I can never get back and memories that I can never un-remember.


Yet they were there for you to talk to and if you'd let them know that you sort of did not like those two games too much, they'd suggest you maybe chose a different game if you were to fall for something similar again...
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dasher47051 wrote:
airjudden wrote:
When I went to my FLGS and bought Race for the Galaxy and Diplo.... sorry, I just can't say that word... it would have been better if they took my money, pulled out a gun, and made me leave. I would have lost my money, but at least I wouldn't have wasted hours of my life I can never get back and memories that I can never un-remember.


Yet they were there for you to talk to and if you'd let them know that you sort of did not like those two games too much, they'd suggest you maybe chose a different game if you were to fall for something similar again...

I'm going to go out on a crazy limb here and guess that at the moment Judd bought those games, he did not yet know that he did not like those two games too much.

Edited to add: Replying too early in the morning and missed the final "again", doh! Sorry! Still doesn't save him from having hated the first 2 purchases though.
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Eddy Sterckx
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russ wrote:

I'm going to go out on a crazy limb here and guess that at the moment Judd bought those games, he did not yet know that he did not like those two games too much.


If your hobby is movies, you're bound to see some stinkers.
If your hobby is wine, you're bound to get some bottles only suited as drain cleaner
if your hobby is fishing, you're bound to have a day where you catch nothing but pneumonia

At least with boardgames, unlike in the examples above, you have to ability to move it on to the next suck^H^H^ I mean gamer who'll maybe like that sort of game.

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eddy_sterckx wrote:
russ wrote:

I'm going to go out on a crazy limb here and guess that at the moment Judd bought those games, he did not yet know that he did not like those two games too much.


If your hobby is movies, you're bound to see some stinkers.
If your hobby is wine, you're bound to get some bottles only suited as drain cleaner

I completely agree and hope that my comment did not suggest otherwise.
 
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Eddy Sterckx
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russ wrote:
eddy_sterckx wrote:
russ wrote:

I'm going to go out on a crazy limb here and guess that at the moment Judd bought those games, he did not yet know that he did not like those two games too much.


If your hobby is movies, you're bound to see some stinkers.
If your hobby is wine, you're bound to get some bottles only suited as drain cleaner

I completely agree and hope that my comment did not suggest otherwise.


I know and given that 213 games of mine have moved on to a better place in the last 4 years this suggests that :

- I suck at picking games.
- I'm pretty good at letting go and getting rid of them - if you buy/play a lot of games, you're going to buy/play stinkers - it's like death & taxes : pretty much unavoidable. Move on and don't complain too much about it - there are many hobbies who have it worse.
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Carsten Bohne
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russ wrote:
dasher47051 wrote:
airjudden wrote:
When I went to my FLGS and bought Race for the Galaxy and Diplo.... sorry, I just can't say that word... it would have been better if they took my money, pulled out a gun, and made me leave. I would have lost my money, but at least I wouldn't have wasted hours of my life I can never get back and memories that I can never un-remember.


Yet they were there for you to talk to and if you'd let them know that you sort of did not like those two games too much, they'd suggest you maybe chose a different game if you were to fall for something similar again...

I'm going to go out on a crazy limb here and guess that at the moment Judd bought those games, he did not yet know that he did not like those two games too much.


...and I implied that finding out he didn't like them after he tried them didn't leave him too traumatized as to not visit the store which sold them to him ever again. Instead if he went back and told his FLGS that he found those games to be truly terrible and that the clerks please warn him if he was about to buy something similar...

Edit: That's what a FLGS can do but Kickstarter can't.
The same is true for your FLWineS, your FLBookS etc.
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dasher47051 wrote:
...and I implied that finding out he didn't like them after he tried them didn't leave him too traumatized as to not visit the store which sold them to him ever again. Instead if he went back and told his FLGS that he found those games to be truly terrible and that the clerks please warn him if he was about to buy something similar...

Edit: That's what a FLGS can do but Kickstarter can't.
The same is true for your FLWineS, your FLBookS etc.


True; I replied too early in the morning and missed the final "again" in your comment, doh! Sorry!

It still doesn't save him from having hated the first 2 purchases though.
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dasher47051 wrote:
Instead if he went back and told his FLGS that he found those games to be truly terrible and that the clerks please warn him if he was about to buy something similar...


Zeus knows I have a much higher opinion of my FLGS than KrapStarter, but I don't expect the owner there to be accurate in his predictions about what I'm going to like or not. He can make suggestions (and he does), but in the end you have to realize that people like or dislike certain games for idiosyncratic reasons and sometimes for no reason at all. People are just crazy that way.

I know people who dislike Diplomacy, yet have no trouble with Survive/Escape from Atlantis or Lifeboat which are much, much worse games in the screw your buddy department. The knife in the back in Diplomacy is a *reasoned* decision, throwing somebody to the sharks in Survive is just because you can. And don't get me started on Lifeboat which I simply detest. So I can understand that when it originally came out Diplomacy was a first of its kind and drew heavy negative reactions, but what I don't get is why the bad name somehow lingered on, given that since then there have been much jerkier designs.
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darthhugo wrote:
True. And some of the those games that are available for purchase would not been on the shelves, if it weren't for KS. Xia, Bullfrogs, Kremlin reprint, Underground Railroad, The Gallerist.

mrbeankc wrote:
When I walk into my FLGS and buy a game I have a 0% failure rate.


Are you saying that "The Gallerist" wouldn't be in the shelves if it wasn't for KS?! shake

Get real...
 
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Judd Vance
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dasher47051 wrote:
airjudden wrote:
mrbeankc wrote:
When I walk into my FLGS and buy a game I have a 0% failure rate.


When I went to my FLGS and bought Race for the Galaxy and Diplo.... sorry, I just can't say that word... it would have been better if they took my money, pulled out a gun, and made me leave. I would have lost my money, but at least I wouldn't have wasted hours of my life I can never get back and memories that I can never un-remember.


Yet they were there for you to talk to and if you'd let them know that you sort of did not like those two games too much, they'd suggest you maybe chose a different game if you were to fall for something similar again...


Naw, that's why I have Geekbuddies like you. That is the single greatest analysis tool I have come across.
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So, because some games fail at kickstarter and some never needed kickstarter, those that benefited from kickstarter are affected how?

How would the failed Up Front Kickstarter have allowed me to acquire and play The Gallerist?

I'm sure there is an important logical step that I'm missing somewhere in your argument.

Plezzzzz, enlighten me.

mrbeankc wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
True. And some of the those games that are available for purchase would not been on the shelves, if it weren't for KS. Xia, Bullfrogs, Kremlin reprint, Underground Railroad, The Gallerist.

mrbeankc wrote:
When I walk into my FLGS and buy a game I have a 0% failure rate.


And games like Up Front and The Doom That Came To Atlantic City...oh wait.

Boardgames were published longtime before Kickstarter was around. Yeah a few benefited from Kickstarter but it's hardly as if our hobby would be suffering without it.

Also some of those games that you mention would have been printed even without Kickstarter. Jolly Roger games for example who did Kremlin has been publishing games for over 10 years. They've published a couple dozen titles over that time such as Founding Fathers (super game btw) without Kickstarter. So it's a bit of a stretch to suggest they suddenly wouldn't be able to publish games without Kickstarter seeing as they've been doing just that for over a decade.
 
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Rich Keiser
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Ah, so you have access to alternate universes?

Please, I have several important questions I'm going to PM you. Use your wisdom, power, and insight for good.


Lautresault wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
True. And some of the those games that are available for purchase would not been on the shelves, if it weren't for KS. Xia, Bullfrogs, Kremlin reprint, Underground Railroad, The Gallerist.

mrbeankc wrote:
When I walk into my FLGS and buy a game I have a 0% failure rate.


Are you saying that "The Gallerist" wouldn't be in the shelves if it wasn't for KS?! shake

Get real...
 
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I would think that the primary advantage of buying from an FLGS vs Kickstarter is that you know you will get the game, vs there being a small chance of getting nothing at all.

The report says 9% non-delivery overall. I'll bet it's lower for board games given that they're easier to produce than most things, barring epic licensing fails.

Predicting whether you'll like games ordered before anyone's reviewed them, that's another matter entirely... still not 100% even after reviews/comments... Gaming tastes are extremely varied and subjective and can be idiosyncratic indeed. At least movies and books have the advantage of mostly only being viewed/read once. If you only wanted to play a game once, though, it's unlikely you thought it was good (with exceptions I'm guessing). That's not even getting into group dynamics, interactivity, etc.
 
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