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Subject: Twilight Imperium != Galactic Emperor rss

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A. B. West
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Comparisons are inevitable for any space opera looking game. Especially since GE has hexes and TI3 has hexes. It just flat out looks the same. But besides the hexes, the space opera feel, space ships, and the fact is has a Puerto Rico mechanic in the game - what has TI3 given us? Nothing!

Anyhow, for those of you who dispute the claim that Galactic Emperor is completely different from TI3 (and you know who you'll be even before you are that person!), I say give GE a looksee for yourself. It plays way faster, scales much better and is far easier to learn. So much easier - you can learn GE in about 20 minutes. Much faster - you will finish a game in 2 hours or less. And that's a point - but it's not the *only* point. I've followed (now) much of the debate - pro and con - about TI3. I'm following and figuring.

GE has different play mechanics too. It's a tighter game. It is very balanced (play testing is demonstrating very close contests - even when newbies are involved). Industrialist, Politician, Marine, Engineer, Scientist, Merchant - it all flows fast and furious. I know, I know. This is all stuff and fluff until you see it for yourself. Hopefully that will be soon.

If you plan on being at Origins or GenCon, *please* stop by and play. I want to hear opinions - good and contra-good. Constructive comments are the most welcome.
 
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Mike zebrowski
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adamw wrote:
Comparisons are inevitable for any space opera looking game. Especially since GE has hexes and TI3 has hexes. It just flat out looks the same. But besides the hexes, the space opera feel, space ships, and the fact is has a Puerto Rico mechanic in the game - what has TI3 given us? Nothing!


Gee, real classy. As far as I can tell, you are the only one comparing it to TI3.

Mike Z
 
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A. B. West
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Well... not quite alone. At least two others have said this now in my hearing. But anyhow, my appologies, Mike. No hate here! The comandeered quote from Monty Python ("What have the Roman's given us?") was intended as a poke, not a slam on TI3. Clearly the Roman's have given us much and yet they're still the Romans. Therefore, the little guy has to scream once in awhile, shake a fist, rage against the machine - and still admit the completely obvious.
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Scott Lewis
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adamw wrote:
But besides the hexes, the space opera feel, space ships, and the fact is has a Puerto Rico mechanic in the game - what has TI3 given us? Nothing!

Well, I have to admit, I was interested in this game until I saw this comment. If this was intended to be merely a poke, it seems to me to be poorly executed. What I get out of it is "despite what TI3 has, it's a worthless game; mine's better, and nobody can deny it".

My interest in looking at Galactic Emperor may not be completely gone, but has been reduced after reading that comment. Such a shame, too.
 
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Christian Marcussen
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Quote:
... what has TI3 given us? Nothing!


It has given me some of the best gaming hours I ever spent.

I would hold that TI3 is pretty much unbeatable in it's genre.

Good luck
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Lance McMillan
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sigmazero13 wrote:
My interest in looking at Galactic Emperor may not be completely gone, but has been reduced after reading that comment. Such a shame, too.


Oh, come now... Adam's rational, thoroughly researched, well reasoned and erudite arguments were totally compelling. I have no choice, I'm taking out a second mortgage on the home and buying every single copy of GE that I can possibly manage to get my hands on! Artwork by Van Gogh, a flawless 20 carat diamond, even a mint MtG 'Black Lotus' card, these things pale in comparison to the august majesty of "Galactic Emperor!" (*cue dramatic music*)

Sigh. If only I could find a copy in any of my local game stores...
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Isaac Citrom
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Just an observation:

"Twilight Imperium != Galactic Empire"

Howm many people I wonder picked up that "!=" means "not equal to". FYI: it is an element of programming syntax in many popular programming languages.




 
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Steve Hope
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adamw wrote:
But besides the hexes, the space opera feel, space ships, and the fact is has a Puerto Rico mechanic in the game - what has TI3 given us? Nothing!


I actually thought this was the best part of the quote! I have no real interest in GE, and don't have the time to play TI3, but I certainly DID recognize and enjoy the "Life of Brian" reference.
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Scott Lewis
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Well, I'll concede maybe my observation is a little harsh. Perhaps Mr. Wests post was meant as pure sarcastic fun, and I missed the point outright. The possibility that the joke was a spin-off of a Monty Python movie leads credence to the fact that maybe I misinterpreted it.

I was looking at one of the Prototype images, and Mr. West was using TI3 fighters for some of the pieces, which indicates to me that he probably owns TI3 (or knows someone who does); the latter seems more likely since it's not in his "owned" list. Whether this means he actually likes TI3 is unknown. (And in the long run, does it matter? Not really, as long as the attitude that I "perceived" above (perhaps erroneously) isn't the true nature of his feelings).

I admit, the game itself looks pretty; The rules summary was too vague to really tell if I may enjoy it overall, though.

Will I give this game a second chance? Probably, especially if my comment above was simply based on a misunderstanding of what he "meant" when he wrote it as opposed to how I "read" it.
 
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A. B. West
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I was tempted to completely delete the (now) offending message after I posted it. Really, I was just chuckling and prattling on – yes, using my best Monty Python imitation at the time because I recognized my feeble efforts to distance myself from TI were silly. Who could possibly deny what TI has accomplished? Anyhow, after this piffle, I certainly didn’t expect any significant reply let alone the jeers I’ve now received.

Now as to the extent of my dislike or not of TI – Mr. Lewis has it right: what does it matter? The only reason I mentioned TI at all is because it has, during several play tests, more than a few times (!) been called to my attention as a comparator. As I said, comparisons are inevitable and they can be helpful. In this case, I’m not sure that it is. Personally, TI3 doesn’t fit my gaming needs at this point in my life. I have to play in two hours or less – it’s simply the time we have allotted on our gaming group nights. As a point of fact, I have played TI2 and TI3 (one time each at GenCon and yes, now own a copy of the latter – geek updated) because I so love the concept of 4X space conquest – planets, ships, technologies, economies – I love it all. But to play this theme often, I need it done in two hours or less. And I need fast play with little down time as my gaming group is enjoying Euro-game mechanics – not just to be trendy, but because we truly enjoy the stuff. Therefore, being a bit of a game enthusiast and game developer, I set out to fill my own gaming gap – not to make a TI3 “one better” (perish the thought!) but to make a galactic empire game fun, fast and well crafted.

Have I succeeded? I love game development. I’m enthusiastic and cautiously optimistic. I continue to play test. I’m hopeful. We’ll see!
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Scott Lewis
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Thanks for the insight. Maybe I'm the only one, but it does appear that I was probably mistaken then, and for that I apologize.

Best of luck as the game continues to work to completion. When it hits shelves, I may take a good look at it. I like TI3, and don't want my opportunities to play it diminished, but if this game can fill a void that TI3 doesn't quite match, it would certainly be worth investigating.

Thanks again for being willing to stand up, take some flak and, at least in my case, correct some misunderstandings.
 
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Richard Hutnik
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adamw wrote:
Well... not quite alone. At least two others have said this now in my hearing. But anyhow, my appologies, Mike. No hate here! The comandeered quote from Monty Python ("What have the Roman's given us?") was intended as a poke, not a slam on TI3. Clearly the Roman's have given us much and yet they're still the Romans. Therefore, the little guy has to scream once in awhile, shake a fist, rage against the machine - and still admit the completely obvious.


Ok, let's start over. Retitle this Galactic Empire = Space Opera in 2 Hours or Less! That would be a start. You then can end up comparing to Twilight Imperium. An easier to learn Space Opera that plays in 2 hours or less would be of interest to me, and likely others.
 
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Richard Hutnik
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Wow, saw the prototype pic. Looks like Puerto Rico in space. A good PR type game with combat and more would possibly be of interest to a lot of people.
 
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Christian Marcussen
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docreason wrote:
Wow, saw the prototype pic. Looks like Puerto Rico in space. A good PR type game with combat and more would possibly be of interest to a lot of people.


I thought the point of this game was to not be Puerto Rico in space? At least that seems like the designers gripe with TI3.
 
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A. B. West
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Re: Galactic Empire = Space Opera in 2 Hours or Less!
Not at all. My "gripes" with TI are the duration and the complexity as I said.
 
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Kris J
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Game looks interesting to me!
 
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A. B. West
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Thanks, Kris. Again, if you happen to be at GenCon or Origins, I'd truly appreciate some solid, constructive feedback!
 
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Peter Marchlewitz
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I also picked up on the Monty Python bit immediately.

Well he has got a big nose...

 
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Nick Szegedi
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Hey Adam,

First off... kudos to you for making this game, it looks awesome! And... yes, I am a big TI3 fan! (I actually own and play many of FFGAmes!) I think a new approach to a space conquest game would be neat. I may have some spare time on my hands to dive into a great game of TI3 but we all can be honost with ourselves and say that many times it is hard to find other players with the same luxury of time especially with my friends/ brother who have families of their own.

A space game with a "Euro"-touch would be cool. I am a huge Pirate fan and am still waiting for that "Big Box game" of Pirates! but still enjoy the "Euro" Pirates games too (Pirate's Cove/ Winds of Plunder) Point being, there is definately a good market for a Space Conquest game whether it's a great game like TI3 or a Good Euro one like GE. I think both have many things to offer.

As this game progresses and gets printed, I for one would definately check it out!

I was just wondering couple things...

Will you have plastic minis for the ships? Are the victory counters acquired similar to the scoring points in Warrior Knights? (being in a pool and allocated)


Anways... like I said: many people don't really know what goes into making a game (well...I know Mike Z does) but I have gratefully playtested some cool games and it is always awesome to see them come alive with the final product!

Keep up the good work!
 
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A. B. West
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What wonderful encouragement! Thank you very much.

holywolfman wrote:

Will you have plastic minis for the ships? Are the victory counters acquired similar to the scoring points in Warrior Knights? (being in a pool and allocated)


Plastic minis are in the plans. What I'm trying to find is a good (reasonably cost effective) way to get this done. They are clearly the single most expensive component. But I still have hope!

On victory counters, they are indeed in a pool and allocated - much like many other games. This is a point of continual tweaking (I only a few play tests ago increased the number), trying to have a sufficient amount to allow a good, satisfying play session and yet also dial the time into around 2 perfect hours.
 
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Nick Szegedi
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OK- cool... thanks for your answers and please keep us informed on your progress!
 
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Nate Merchant
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While I feel that TI3 has left an ENORMOUS area in the galactic conquest genre unexplored, I would be wary of promoting an unpublished game by comparing it negatively to TI3. Whatever the reason, TI3 has many, many vociferous partisans, and I think the OP will only lose orders by making even accurate comparisons. Be careful of trodding on a BGG sacred cow, even in jest, when you want many of these same people to try your game as well.

marqzen wrote:
Quote:
... what has TI3 given us? Nothing!


It has given me some of the best gaming hours I ever spent.

I would hold that TI3 is pretty much unbeatable in it's genre.

Good luck


With this and Supernova, at least, not to mention, oh, Nexus Ops and the spate of SW Risk games, I think TI3 is in for a well-deserved drubbing!

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A. B. West
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Natus wrote:
I would be wary of promoting an unpublished game by comparing it negatively to TI3. Whatever the reason, TI3 has many, many vociferous partisans, and I think the OP will only lose orders by making even accurate comparisons. Be careful of trodding on a BGG sacred cow, even in jest, when you want many of these same people to try your game as well.

I think of BGG folks highly. Although each have games they hold in high regard, in the end, what has joined us here together, is our passion for games. So I'm not fearful of tapping into their passion by lambasting a game occasionally. But! I must repeat myself: I don't think negatively of TI3. I only hold out what I believe is an unfilled gap in board games with a 4X theme: play time and complexity. I also am fascinated by Euro-mechanics and their application to this problem. Thus, my game.

It shouldn't be a problem to state the motivation for a game. And it shouldn't be a problem if said motivation is stated by comparing to another game. In fact, I don't believe it is a problem. I trust BGG is filled with gamers who love games and so try out new games and those far outweigh some who are fixated on a single game (whatever game that may be) to the exclusion of all others.
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Lance Harrop
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Natus wrote:
While I feel that TI3 has left an ENORMOUS area in the galactic conquest genre unexplored, I would be wary of promoting an unpublished game by comparing it negatively to TI3. Whatever the reason, TI3 has many, many vociferous partisans, and I think the OP will only lose orders by making even accurate comparisons. Be careful of trodding on a BGG sacred cow, even in jest, when you want many of these same people to try your game as well.

With this and Supernova, at least, not to mention, oh, Nexus Ops and the spate of SW Risk games, I think TI3 is in for a well-deserved drubbing!


Wow! First you warn Mr. West against comparing Galatic Emperor to TI3, noting it's many fans, then YOU compare it negatively to the Star Wars Risks. I own all three (TI3 and the Risks) and I've played all three and TI3 is not going to be drubbed by any variant of Risk.

Mr. West, Galactic Emperor MAY be great, in the end, but if you want to say you want a two hour multiplayer game, just say it. I certainly don't mind quick multiplayer games. I like both Vinci and Rio Grande's Imperial. But TI3 is a great game, and you'd be better off not trying to compare your game to it until yours is in print and we all have had a few months to try and play it.

Good luck, but really, not if you continue to trash my favorite game.

Lance, the Mad (Again) TI3 Varianter
 
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A. B. West
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Leifr wrote:
Mr. West, Galactic Emperor MAY be great, in the end, but if you want to say you want a two hour multiplayer game, just say it. I certainly don't mind quick multiplayer games. I like both Vinci and Rio Grande's Imperial. But TI3 is a great game, and you'd be better off not trying to compare your game to it until yours is in print and we all have had a few months to try and play it. Good luck, but really, not if you continue to trash my favorite game.

Actually, I was trying to uncompare to TI3 - i.e. contrast, not compare. I do feel bad that it still appears as if I'm 'trashing' TI3. I *like* TI3 for what it is - the superlative epic space empire game! I'm just describing the inspiration for my game as I've tried to make plain.
 
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