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Subject: New Trait: Claws rss

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Dale Rowe
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A Kickstarter exclusive:

"This is going to be a very powerful card. It gives your species +3 body size when determining if it can attack or be attacked. Because things with claws are scary."


I know hard shell is unlikely to be one of the compatible cards with Climate but dare i say a little power creep with this one? Either way, I am Slightly disappointed with this trait's lack of originality or mechanic/thematic mesh.

what are your thoughts?
 
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Peter 'Pedro' Goins
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Given all the defensive bonuses available on the new climate-specific traits, I think it's nice having another offensive card to counter them. I am curious whether the rules will recommend this card replace one in the deck (similar to the bonus traits in the Flight kickstarter.)
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Nick Bentley
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GarcianIII wrote:
A Kickstarter exclusive:

"This is going to be a very powerful card. It gives your species +3 body size when determining if it can attack or be attacked. Because things with claws are scary."


I know hard shell is unlikely to be one of the compatible cards with Climate but dare i say a little power creep with this one? Either way, I am Slightly disappointed with this trait's lack of originality or mechanic/thematic mesh.

what are your thoughts?


Intentional power creep! The promo cards are just for fun, so we like making them a little more powerful. If we were to make this card a part of the game itself, it would probably +2 instead of +3.
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François-Marie Arouet
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Can you make it more clear on the campaign that these promo cards are "just for fun"? Purely by looking at the campaign, there's no way to tell the difference between more awesome, thoroughly-playtested cards and "lolz variant" cards (which I understand many will still love). Everyone should know what they're getting.
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Peter Cox
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Never Stop Playing wrote:
GarcianIII wrote:
A Kickstarter exclusive:

"This is going to be a very powerful card. It gives your species +3 body size when determining if it can attack or be attacked. Because things with claws are scary."


I know hard shell is unlikely to be one of the compatible cards with Climate but dare i say a little power creep with this one? Either way, I am Slightly disappointed with this trait's lack of originality or mechanic/thematic mesh.

what are your thoughts?


Intentional power creep! The promo cards are just for fun, so we like making them a little more powerful. If we were to make this card a part of the game itself, it would probably +2 instead of +3.

This seems... ridiculous.

So the stretch goal cards are worthless if you want to play a balanced game?

I'd say that's something you might want to make clear to the backers :/
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Mike Malley
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Power creep makes me sad inside. Were any of the promo cards in the Flight Kickstarter "just for fun" as well?
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François-Marie Arouet
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caffeinehead wrote:
Power creep makes me sad inside. Were any of the promo cards in the Flight Kickstarter "just for fun" as well?


I believe all of them were.
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Mike Malley
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tytrain wrote:
caffeinehead wrote:
Power creep makes me sad inside. Were any of the promo cards in the Flight Kickstarter "just for fun" as well?
I believe all of them were.

Well that's good to know.
 
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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Peter Cox wrote:
Never Stop Playing wrote:
GarcianIII wrote:
A Kickstarter exclusive:

"This is going to be a very powerful card. It gives your species +3 body size when determining if it can attack or be attacked. Because things with claws are scary."


I know hard shell is unlikely to be one of the compatible cards with Climate but dare i say a little power creep with this one? Either way, I am Slightly disappointed with this trait's lack of originality or mechanic/thematic mesh.

what are your thoughts?


Intentional power creep! The promo cards are just for fun, so we like making them a little more powerful. If we were to make this card a part of the game itself, it would probably +2 instead of +3.

This seems... ridiculous.

So the stretch goal cards are worthless if you want to play a balanced game?

I'd say that's something you might want to make clear to the backers :/


Claws is not broken. It is within the realm of viably balanced cards. It is just on the high end of the power side. This is not a collectible card game where we ruining the balance by giving people an unfair advantage if they're willing to pay for it. Claws will be going into the same deck that everyone draws from. If you are going to take the time to remove 7 cards from a wonderfully tested and balanced game in order to shake things up, then you definitely DO NOT want to put in a card that rarely gets played. That would be anti-climatic and silly. You're going to want the card to have a noticeable impact on game play. Players who enjoy aggressive games will definitely want to experiment with Claws.

So Claws is intentionally on the powerful side. But Hard Shell is clearly preferable to Claws unless you're thinking about turning your species into a Carnivore. This means Claws is sometimes better than Hard Shell sometimes worse which is exactly what we look for in a viably balanced card.
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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caffeinehead wrote:
tytrain wrote:
caffeinehead wrote:
Power creep makes me sad inside. Were any of the promo cards in the Flight Kickstarter "just for fun" as well?
I believe all of them were.

Well that's good to know.


I have played Evolution and the expansion over 500 times. When we release a boxed game it has been tested about 100 times more than most games on the market. That's why there is so much replay value packed into our games. And that's why I feel confident saying Evolution, Flight, and Climate are all tournament quality games.

It's not possible to test every promo card over 100 times. The promo cards are just that: promo cards. They are cards designed to promote the Evolution game system. They are fun additions designed for people who have played the base set 50+ times and are interested in shaking things up.
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François-Marie Arouet
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domcrap wrote:
It's not possible to test every promo card over 100 times. The promo cards are just that: promo cards. They are cards designed to promote the Evolution game system. They are fun additions designed for people who have played the base set 50+ times and are interested in shaking things up.


And that's fine and great, but this needs to be communicated more clearly. As it stands, I look at the Kickstarter for Climate and I have no idea this is the case (based on what's listed there).
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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tytrain wrote:
Can you make it more clear on the campaign that these promo cards are "just for fun"? Purely by looking at the campaign, there's no way to tell the difference between more awesome, thoroughly-playtested cards and "lolz variant" cards (which I understand many will still love). Everyone should know what they're getting.


Every promo card is designed to be fun. We don't hold them to the same standard that we hold our boxed games because it is not possible to hold them to the same standard. You cannot judge the power of a card in isolation. Cards are more powerful or less powerful depending upon the other cards in the environment. So it is not even possible to balance a promo card without knowing the set that it will be played in.

As a rule of thumb, if we have hired Catherine Hamilton to do the art, then you can be sure that it has been tested hundreds of times. She is too expensive to use willy nilly.
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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tytrain wrote:
domcrap wrote:
It's not possible to test every promo card over 100 times. The promo cards are just that: promo cards. They are cards designed to promote the Evolution game system. They are fun additions designed for people who have played the base set 50+ times and are interested in shaking things up.


And that's fine and great, but this needs to be communicated more clearly. As it stands, I look at the Kickstarter for Climate and I have no idea this is the case (based on what's listed there).


I assume every limited edition promo card from every publisher on every Kickstarter campaign has not been tested as extensively as the cards that come in the boxed game. It doesn't make sense to spend thousands of man hours refining a concept for a limited edition item that only gets enjoyed by a (relatively) few people.
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François-Marie Arouet
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domcrap wrote:
I assume every limited edition promo card from every publisher on every Kickstarter campaign has not been tested as extensively as the cards that come in the boxed game. It doesn't make sense to spend thousands of man hours refining a concept for a limited edition item that only gets enjoyed by a (relatively) few people.


I sure don't! Even if that's what most people do, some people won't, and they'll feel cheated when they find out. You can completely avoid this by being up-front.

Also, I just CTRL+F "promo" and it never appears on the Kickstarter. I know the Traits are currently images in the stretch goals, and they don't say "promo" anywhere.

EDIT: I don't want to sound like a pure downer here. I love this game, I love Climate, and even though these promos don't hold value for me, I know they do for many, and I appreciate the work put into them. As someone who wasn't on the same page about what these were during Flight, I want to make sure everyone knows exactly what they're getting during Climate.
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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GarcianIII wrote:
A Kickstarter exclusive:

"This is going to be a very powerful card. It gives your species +3 body size when determining if it can attack or be attacked. Because things with claws are scary."


I know hard shell is unlikely to be one of the compatible cards with Climate but dare i say a little power creep with this one? Either way, I am Slightly disappointed with this trait's lack of originality or mechanic/thematic mesh.

what are your thoughts?


The original idea was very complicated and would have needed a section in the rules to explain specific circumstances. Since we don't have a place for explanations (like a section in the rules), the promo cards should be somewhat self explanatory.

Here was my original idea:
Before the food cards are revealed, you may discard a card(s) to get a benefit until the end of the round:
• +2 Body Size during attacks
• 1 food from the Food Bank
• All the effects of Burrowing


But people thought this was too confusing and that the theme for some of the effects were not clear.
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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tytrain wrote:
domcrap wrote:
I assume every limited edition promo card from every publisher on every Kickstarter campaign has not been tested as extensively as the cards that come in the boxed game. It doesn't make sense to spend thousands of man hours refining a concept for a limited edition item that only gets enjoyed by a (relatively) few people.


I sure don't! Even if that's what most people do, some people won't, and they'll feel cheated when they find out. You can completely avoid this by being up-front.

Also, I just CTRL+F "promo" and it never appears on the Kickstarter. I know the Traits are currently images in the stretch goals, and they don't say "promo" anywhere.


Ok, I hear you. It's good for me to hear this because it's completely contrary to what I expect from KS stretch goals. I have a "behind the scene" viewpoint. It's like talking with industry people for reality tv 5 years ago (when I was pitching a Wits & Wagers tv game show). It doesn't occur to them that others think reality tv is completely unscripted.

As you can probably imagine, I'm utterly and completely swamped right now (I've gotten 4 hours of sleep for 5 out of the past 7 nights). When I find some time I will post an update that explains the role that promo cards play in the Evolution game system, but it might be a while...
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Sara Bear
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Rest well!
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Dale Rowe
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domcrap wrote:
tytrain wrote:
domcrap wrote:
It's not possible to test every promo card over 100 times. The promo cards are just that: promo cards. They are cards designed to promote the Evolution game system. They are fun additions designed for people who have played the base set 50+ times and are interested in shaking things up.


And that's fine and great, but this needs to be communicated more clearly. As it stands, I look at the Kickstarter for Climate and I have no idea this is the case (based on what's listed there).


I assume every limited edition promo card from every publisher on every Kickstarter campaign has not been tested as extensively as the cards that come in the boxed game. It doesn't make sense to spend thousands of man hours refining a concept for a limited edition item that only gets enjoyed by a (relatively) few people.


Of course it is not possible to thoroughly test promo cards as much as the product releases but they still should be able to integrate into the game they are promoting in consideration of balance and other cards.

With claws, i Only feel it has invaded upon hard Shell's game space a little too much and is not a super creative card on its own accord.

The comment that it would have been +2+2 IF it was in the game strikes me as baffling.


But yes, I do not want to sound so cynical, my criticisms are born from a passion for the IP.
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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GarcianIII wrote:
The comment that it would have been +2+2 IF it was in the game strikes me as baffling...


I think that was an off-the-cuff and somewhat glib answer. Claws would have been +2/+2 with another small benefit. I wanted that other small benefit to be +1 protection from the heat and cold (because you can use the claws to burrow) but the theme was not coming through for people. We spent a lot of time trying to figure out a different 2nd benefit but making it thematic and short proved to be too difficult. We finally settled on +3/+3 as a promo card knowing it was on the powerful side (which we think is the right thing for a promo card).

You're claiming that Claws is out of balance but I don't think you'll feel that way when you play with it. It'll feel like a normal trait. If you're an aggressive player you'll like it more than Hard Shell. If you're a defensive player you'll prefer Hard Shell.

Not very imaginative? You're probably right there. I spent many many sleepless nights trying to make that card work for CLIMATE but everything ended up being too complicated. If I had succeeded, it would have gone directly into the game. Instead, it was resurrected when we started thinking about good KS stretch goals.
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