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Subject: Ramming or Overrun rules? rss

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Cap'n Howdy
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To those Ogre fans --

Just wondering --

Which rules do you use? Ramming or Overrun rules?

Obviously, on the Ogre map -- ramming rules.

But on the GEV maps -- which do you use?

It would seem that ramming rules are easier/quicker/simpler.

Thoughts?

*BONUS QUESTION:

Regardless on which rule set you use -- if a unit moves into terrain that may disable it in order to ram another unit --

If the unit is disabled -- and the ram fails -- does the unit remain in the enemy-occupied hex?
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Karl Hiesterman
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To me the ramming rules are the super simplified rules that I only use for Ogre games, on the Ogre map, to introduce new players to the Ogre Universe. Once I'm on the GEV maps, with real terrain, I'm using the full GEV rules, including Overrun. It's just a key part of the game. It gives infantry the teeth they need to act as a defensive screen. It allows the attacker to overwhelm a thin defensive perimeter, at the risk of some lost units.To me it's key to the more complete experience, the higher "reality" and depth of GEV.

It adds a bit of complexity, but in all honesty you don't find yourself using it all that often. It's the threat of it, the mere existence of a much deadlier close combat environment, that gives it the greatest value.

In Ogre infantry are the cannon fodder, but in GEV they are a key element of combat, hard to wrinkle out of terrain and vicious in Overrun. Using your infantry well is like a good Pawn game in Chess.
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David Rock

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selphil wrote:
To those Ogre fans --
But on the GEV maps -- which do you use?

All overrun, all the time. While ramming _can_ be simpler, it's not exactly easier/better/whatever. A G.E.V. game that doesn't have overruns feels hollow somehow. There's a feeling of satisfaction when you successfully overrun that ramming just doesn't provide.

It could just be that I started with G.E.V. and ramming didn't exist for me, so I have a special place for it. :-)

selphil wrote:

*BONUS QUESTION:

Regardless on which rule set you use -- if a unit moves into terrain that may disable it in order to ram another unit --

If the unit is disabled -- and the ram fails -- does the unit remain in the enemy-occupied hex?


Multi-part answer (i.e., "it depends"). I assume what you mean by "the ram fails" is one unit or the other survives the ram. Ramming and overrun handle leftovers differently, so let's start there:

Ramming:
Disabled or not doesn't actually matter. Ramming occurs immediately, regardless if the attacking unit is disabled once it enters the hex. What it _does_ do is determine the state of the ramming unit when resolving the ram.
There are only three kinds of units that can ram: Ogres, SHVYs and GEVs. GEVs are always destroyed, and Ogres have rules all over the place about how they can occupy the same space as the enemy units (6.02, 6.08, etc). The SHVY is treated as a Mark I Ogre for ramming, so it simply follows the Ogre rules for how to resolve being in the same hex. Where disabled matters is for things like the SHVY taking a 1-1 attack as a result of the ram. If it's disabled as a result of entering, the chance it will be destroyed during the actual ram is higher.

There's also the Ogre ramming Ogre scenario, which is interesting because you won't actually have two Ogres in the same hex. Per 6.05, the ramming ogre stops movement in the hex it was in _before_ the ram takes place, so the problem never actually happens in the first place.

Overrun:
Overruns are a lot more flexible for this, and being disabled matters for odds, but ultimately has no impact on units in the same hex. If a unit is disabled upon entering, it means it's a better target for the defense. It also means it can't move after the overrun is over. However, there's a very small subset of outcomes for an overrun that don't result in one side or the other being wiped out, since even disabled units can fire. Overruns are designed to not have anything left behind. Those edge cases are: an Ogre with no weapons, and overruns in water where nobody can shoot each other. In any other case, only one side or the other will be left at the end of the overrun.
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Andrew Walters
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Scenario dependent.

The Smash The CP! scenario (i.e. basic Ogre) works best with ramming rules. The scenarios in G.E.V. andShockwave work best with overrun rules, etc.

Some scenarios might work with either set of rules, but some require one or the other. Playing Breakthrough without the overrun rules would be a waste of time.
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Andrew Walters
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Also, I always saw ram/overrun as hand in hand with the stacking and spillover rules. No stacking requires ramming rules, and more than one unit in a hex fits with overrun rules and requires spillover rules.

If you play Smash The CP! but allow stacking you get a mess - it's far easier to mob the Ogre when you can put five units in a hex. Similarly, if I can't move through your hex in Breakthrough, or if I can move through without overrun combat, the scenario is ruined.
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Cap'n Howdy
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Thank you all for your replies.

I guess what I was confused about is the order of phases.

After you move, and in case you're ramming --

You check if the terrain disables you, then you do the ram/overrun.

Then, the next phase is "Disable Check".

Is the disable check/ram/overrun subphases in movement then just for Superheavies?

 
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Marcus
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Yup, that pretty much summarizes it.

Far easier to stop a MKIII or MKV OGRE in the basic "Smash the CP" scenario if overrun and stacking rules are used.

I do like the additional thematic flavour and tactical options that come with the overrun, spillover fire and stacking rules and they are a must have for GEV type scenarios. Otherwise, the GEV scenarios just won't work or be balanced.
 
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David Rock

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selphil wrote:
Thank you all for your replies.

I guess what I was confused about is the order of phases.

After you move, and in case you're ramming --

You check if the terrain disables you, then you do the ram/overrun.

Then, the next phase is "Disable Check".

Is the disable check/ram/overrun subphases in movement then just for Superheavies?



No, it applies to all units that can ram. I assume you are looking at the Turn Sequencing (i.e., section 4.00); in particular, the Movement Phase.

Where it gets a little confusing is the (a) and (b) sections; where (a) is "check for disable" and (b) is resolve ram/overrun. They are sub-parts of the same action. The disable is more about what state your ramming/overrunning unit will be in _while it's ramming/overrunning_. This applies to any unit that can ram, not just SHVYs. In fact, it applies to every unit except Infantry (remember, it could be units ramming an Ogre or a building). It's only units ramming units where there are limits to what can actually ram.

Plus, ramming != overrunning. In the case of ramming, the general case is "yes, it applies only to SHVY, because most everything else will be dead (but not always)" but in the case of overrunning, you are preparing for a firefight between multiple units, so you need to see how many are disabled before the shooting even starts.
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Cap'n Howdy
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granitepenguin wrote:
[q="selphil"]Thank you all for your replies.
Plus, ramming != overrunning. In the case of ramming, the general case is "yes, it applies only to SHVY, because most everything else will be dead (but not always)" but in the case of overrunning, you are preparing for a firefight between multiple units, so you need to see how many are disabled before the shooting even starts.


Okay -- I'm starting to get it...

I'm still learning basic Ogre -- I'm just using ramming rules.

Looking over the GEV rules, I get how you need to check for disabling.

It's all starting to make sense.

I'll have to move to the overrun rules when I graduate to the GEV maps.
 
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Marcus
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selphil wrote:
...
Is the disable check/ram/overrun subphases in movement then just for Superheavies?


According to Rule 8.04, ALL attacking unit types must check for possible terrain disablement before they can fire or ram (an OGRE, another unit or structure) in overrun combat.

Thematically, it makes sense to me to make a terrain check as soon as attacking units enter a hex for overrun combat. Note also that since units disabled for whatever reason only fire at half-strength (not rounded, so use fractions), the defender will of course want to first target attacking units not disabled by terrain.

Also, only defending units in an overrun combat benefit from terrain bonuses.
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Michael Ptak
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Brought big box ogre out for a couple of games to teach new players! Second game we used ramming rules on the GEV map (didn't want to get complicated with overruns).

What I'd like to know is how rams are resolved if you're stacking. Is there a provision for this?
 
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David Rock

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Norsehound wrote:
Brought big box ogre out for a couple of games to teach new players! Second game we used ramming rules on the GEV map (didn't want to get complicated with overruns).

What I'd like to know is how rams are resolved if you're stacking. Is there a provision for this?


Well, if you read the top of the ramming rules (6.00)

Quote:
Ramming takes place during the movement phase. Players should decide in advance whether they will use the (fast, simple) Ramming rules here, intended for games in which only one unit normally occupies each hex, or the (more realistic and complex) Overrun Combat rules described in Section 8. Do not use both!


ramming is really meant to be used without stacking. That's not to say you can't, but it does make things messy if you do. The only real issue is resolving having enemy units in the same hex (which is ok). Basically all that happens is you target a single unit to ram and see what happens. Any other units in the hex would be fired upon as normal after the movement.
 
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