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Subject: Dameo Problem 6 (solution 5) rss

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christian freeling
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Dameo rules: wiki - mindsports - ig game center

Signs used are '?' for a bad move, '!' for a good one, '??' for a catastrophe, '!!' for a great find, '+' for a win and '=' for a draw or an even position.
_______________________________________________________________________

Procedure
I will upload a new Dameo problem every week with the solution of the previous one. That way there will be two problems to consider at any given time.
For all problems it's "White to move and win".
Solutions are given in successive diagrams and for each diagram it's "Black to move" (unless otherwise indicated).
________________________________________________________________________

Here's problem #6, one that the French chose to christen 'coup des contraires', but for Anglo-Americans 'fork' may do.
It's so easy that the key-move probably won't escape anyone, but the second move requires some attention: e6d7 or e6f7?. So that's the poll.


White b2 c2 d2 e6 - Black a2 a3 e8 g4

Poll
White to move and win - what is his second move?
  Your Answer   Vote Percent Vote Count
e6d7
57.1% 4
e6f7
42.9% 3
Voters 7
This poll is now closed.   7 answers
Poll created by christianF
Closes: Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:00 am


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the solution of problem #5, the 'heelkick' (coup de talon).
There were 2 answers, both of them wrong, but who's to blame the participants. This one was very hard.
But I actually have a hard time believing I'm the only one who finds this beautiful.


White a1 a2 d1 d2 e2 f2 g2 g3 h1 h4 - Black b3 b4 c3 d4 e5 f5 f7 g7 h5 h6

Solution problem 5:
Spoiler (click to reveal)



1.h1f3 The key-move


1...h5x3
2.d13


2...c3xe1K
3.d23


3...d4x2
4.g2e4 Now the man on f3 will open the trapdoor and come around to f1 to support it: the characteristic of a heelkick.


4...e5x3
5.f3xd3xd1xf1


5...hxf3
6.f2x8K


6...b3c2
7.f82 Black can capture the king with g7f6, but then his position would be lost even without the man on f1.


7...c2d1
8.f2a7 + Black must capture and White can pick off the remaining 3 black men.


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Rex Moore
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Give me the first "easy" move, and I'll be able to vote on the second.

In the spirit of the exercise, I can make a guess: b2-c3.
 
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christian freeling
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orangeblood wrote:
Give me the first "easy" move, and I'll be able to vote on the second.

In the spirit of the exercise, I can make a guess: b2-c3.

Well … almost
 
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Joseph DiMuro
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I did find the key first move... but if I hadn't seen your problem #4 already, I might have missed it.

The second move is baffling me, though. I see no reason why it makes any difference. I'm obviously missing something. I'll keep looking.

(I'm so tempted to call on Zillions of Games for help right now...)
 
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christian freeling
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TrojH wrote:
The second move is baffling me, though. I see no reason why it makes any difference. I'm obviously missing something. I'll keep looking.

(I'm so tempted to call on Zillions of Games for help right now...)

Big sweeps are impressive of course, but a miniature that requires attention to detail is nice too. I'm glad you enjoy it and I'm curious what Zillions makes of it.
 
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Joseph DiMuro
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Ah. I think I got it. Casting vote now. (Gotta run out the door; I'll try Zillions later.)
 
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Rex Moore
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christianF wrote:
orangeblood wrote:
Give me the first "easy" move, and I'll be able to vote on the second.

In the spirit of the exercise, I can make a guess: b2-c3.

Well … almost


My reasoning is that I probably want to strengthen the three lower left checkers from a quick wipe-out by a black king. B2-c3 seemed the best way.
 
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Joseph DiMuro
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I set things up for Zillions to play this position against itself. Looks like Zillions passed the test; it found the right move in the blink of an eye. And when I backtracked and played the wrong move, it quickly found the refutation.

I know Zillions struggles with Havannah, but it seems to have no trouble with Dameo.
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christian freeling
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TrojH wrote:
I set things up for Zillions to play this position against itself. Looks like Zillions passed the test; it found the right move in the blink of an eye. And when I backtracked and played the wrong move, it quickly found the refutation.

I know Zillions struggles with Havannah, but it seems to have no trouble with Dameo.

Yes, compulsory capture trims the branching factor, so AI's with deterministic evaluation functions are very effective.

However, by the same token Draughts players are capable of reading positions very deeply. That's why grandmasters still draw agains the best AI's.

Dameo allows humans to reach the same depth. Emergo on the other hand is, eventually, beyond human calculation. Training might get you get sufficiently far to excell at the game (because of its relatively simple strategy), but never far enough to get you to the bottom of every conceivable position. Emergo is also even more decisive. So AI's can most likely be made invincible for humans.

P.S.
I consider 'depth' in Draughts variants implicitly to be linked to the capacity of human players to read out long and often forced sequences. The extent to which players are capable to do that in, say, International Draughts, is quite beyond the grasp of the community here, yours truly included.
Draughts strategy is primarily based on a grandmaster's capacity to see and avoid hostile tactics, and to weave them into his own position. At the top both usually see them all and follow a strategy within the leeway they provide. Dameo allows basically the same, but it is more decisive, making the better strategy more rewarding.
Emergo, as a 'weapon', can not be yielded to that kind of perfection, at least not by humans. That's why I find it, ultimately (and secretly), a better weapon: there's always room for improvement, and brilliantly conceived plans may dramatically backfire on the slightest oversight. It's for players who like to play dangerously.
arrrh
 
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christian freeling
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TrojH wrote:
I know Zillions struggles with Havannah, but it seems to have no trouble with Dameo.

On the other hand, I have no trouble with Zillions.
 
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christian freeling
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How about that, I found a review of Dameo from 2010. Placement rules at BGG (well, sort of) but fortunately the game is patient and its quality is hard to ignore, even at BGG (though six years is a good run so far).
 
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Russ Williams
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christianF wrote:
How about that, I found a review of Dameo from 2010.

Designers should subscribe to their games at BGG so they don't miss forum posts about them.
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christian freeling
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russ wrote:
christianF wrote:
How about that, I found a review of Dameo from 2010.

Designers should subscribe to their games at BGG so they don't miss forum posts about them.

Good point, guilty as charged. Yet Dameo went fairly unappreciated since that particular post. I wonder why.

There's this post and this one, 11 thumbs ups combined, frome which I quote:

Quote:
It would be great to have a site where readers can discuss the merits of a particular issue or article. Maybe even where authors could participate, if so inclined.


Quote:
I like the idea of maintaining a forum for each piece on the journal's web site, especially if the authors of each piece get involved. I'll discuss the practicalities with the other admins.


Now this is a general forum, but as this post suggests, specific fora are most likely not available in the near future:

camb wrote:
Hi Christian,

christianF wrote:
There appeared to be substantial interest in the above suggestions (11 thumbs up combined), so I was wondering if anything is actually taking shape.

Unfortunately it took all of our combined time and effort to get issue #2 out on time, and we're having a bit of a breather after the rather sustained effort. We didn't have time to get any further with electronic access, let alone fora for public discussions of the articles. But we will look at these again soon as we prepare for issue #3.

Regards,
Cameron


So given that, I'd have expected some more response to the Dameo article in issue #2. I'm the inventor, the author and, even though at most mediocre, probably the best player. Where are you?

What surprises me most is the general lack of interest in Checkers/Draughts variants. I've never heard any poster here expressing any admiration for the magnificent combinations that are possible in International Draughts. How is that possible? Is it not done maybe?

My guess is that most of the posters here don't know the rules to begin with. And it's very hard to see beauty if you don't know the complete rules. It's the fundament on which problemists build their creations. But the majority of posters here know it's 'Checkers' and they seem to know Checkers is a 'dead end'. Somebody told 'm so.

Beauty is undoubtedly appreciated here. Unfortunately it's not always noticed, even if it actually demonstrates what possibilities a game harbours.
 
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Rex Moore
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russ wrote:
christianF wrote:
How about that, I found a review of Dameo from 2010.

Designers should subscribe to their games at BGG so they don't miss forum posts about them.


And this entire discussion, or at least these ongoing problems/solutions, might be a better fit in the Dameo forum.

I'm subscribed there, and maybe we can start building more subscribers by moving our discussion there.
 
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Matthew Craven
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FWIW, one of the main reasons I never looked too hard into draughts is that many of the combinations and games I have been shown or run across over the years have lacked clarity. Not to say that puzzle #5 isn't beautiful, but it's so totally and completely over my head that even when shown the solution, I haven't the foggiest clue how one would find it in the first place. Not that it can't be understood, but that what I've seen doesn't give me the tools to seriously try.

I did always enjoy the endgame examples on your site more, probably for this reason.
 
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christian freeling
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orangeblood wrote:
russ wrote:
christianF wrote:
How about that, I found a review of Dameo from 2010.

Designers should subscribe to their games at BGG so they don't miss forum posts about them.


And this entire discussion, or at least these ongoing problems/solutions, might be a better fit in the Dameo forum.

I'm subscribed there, and maybe we can start building more subscribers by moving our discussion there.

How about that, I actually found a Dameo forum! Just shows that I'm not a stranger to ignorance myself. And yes, of course, there's enough to tell about the game to fill its own forum, so let's move there.

For starters I'll move the weekly problem there.

clyring wrote:
FWIW, one of the main reasons I never looked too hard into draughts is that many of the combinations and games I have been shown or run across over the years have lacked clarity. Not to say that puzzle #5 isn't beautiful, but it's so totally and completely over my head that even when shown the solution, I haven't the foggiest clue how one would find it in the first place. Not that it can't be understood, but that what I've seen doesn't give me the tools to seriously try.

I did always enjoy the endgame examples on your site more, probably for this reason.

I'd better start with some simpler problems then. Generally speaking, a characteristic of problems is that they're not easy to solve, but even if you don't see a solution, you might deduce something from the solution when it is revealed. 'Clarity' is a characteristic that emerges with experience. All good games can provide it, but it must be achieved and it implicitly cannot be an a priori experience for a beginner.

There's a school of thought who's followers argue that 'clarity' can be found a priori, as a static characteristic of a game that can be seen by a 'moderately informed observer'. I thought I'd mention it.
 
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Nick Bentley
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Note most individual game forums for abstract games don't work, because there aren't enough people in them for discussion to happen. That's why so many of us post about our games here in the general abstract forum despite the existence of game-specific forums.
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Russ Williams
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Christian, I had no idea that you had no idea that every game has its own forum at BGG.

I've been wondering why so many game-specific discussions were being made here. Now I know one of the reasons...
milomilo122 wrote:

Note most individual game forums for abstract games don't work, because there aren't enough people in them for discussion to happen. That's why so many of us post about our games here in the general abstract forum despite the existence of game-specific forums.

They do work in my experience, I see plenty of discussion in specific game forums, certainly not less than here (except for the games whose designers post discussions here instead of in their game's forum...)

People interested in a given game take a look at its forum and subscribe to it, and it seems much better in the long run for game-specific discussion to be in that game's forum, since it's much easier to find old discussions related to the game than all in a huge mass in the single Abstract Games forum. Some future person interested e.g. in Dameo would find these recent problem threads about it in the Dameo forum more easily than in the Abstract Games forum. (Speaking of which, Christian, you could geekmail an admin like Octavian to request the problem threads be moved to the Dameo forum if you want.)

And people uninterested in a given game will not get subscription notifications for games they're uninterested in.
 
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Rex Moore
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Yeah, for any given game, I'm going to that game's forum for strategy and general discussion. I wouldn't even think of looking in this forum.

It may work to kindle the discussion here to give it some momentum, or notify people here to go to the (for example) Slither forum because a good strategy discussion has broken out. That seems fair.

But all in all, I think Dameo strategy discussion belongs in the Dameo forums.
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christian freeling
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russ wrote:
Christian, I had no idea that you had no idea that every game has its own forum at BGG.

I never dug all that deep in BGG's structure and I actually choose it because it's a general forum. I'm not that inclined to introduce Dameo at say the World Draughts Forum because I'd rather have them discover it themselves. May take more time, but less effort. Draughts players have stong opinions regarding variants. They didn't kill me over Hexdame, but then, Hexdame isn't a real threat to Draughts. And the gap between understanding the specific game of International Draughts and its generic fundamentals is … well, huge. Discussions tend to take their toll at my age.
 
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russ wrote:
Christian, I had no idea that you had no idea that every game has its own forum at BGG.

I've been wondering why so many game-specific discussions were being made here. Now I know one of the reasons...
milomilo122 wrote:

Note most individual game forums for abstract games don't work, because there aren't enough people in them for discussion to happen. That's why so many of us post about our games here in the general abstract forum despite the existence of game-specific forums.

They do work in my experience, I see plenty of discussion in specific game forums, certainly not less than here (except for the games whose designers post discussions here instead of in their game's forum...)

People interested in a given game take a look at its forum and subscribe to it, and it seems much better in the long run for game-specific discussion to be in that game's forum, since it's much easier to find old discussions related to the game than all in a huge mass in the single Abstract Games forum. Some future person interested e.g. in Dameo would find these recent problem threads about it in the Dameo forum more easily than in the Abstract Games forum. (Speaking of which, Christian, you could geekmail an admin like Octavian to request the problem threads be moved to the Dameo forum if you want.)

And people uninterested in a given game will not get subscription notifications for games they're uninterested in.


I agree that in the ideal, we should all be using game-specific forums. I would love that. But we're *really* far from the ideal.

I've posted about my games in both the game-specific forums and here, and the posts here invariably generate more discussion. That makes perfect sense because:

For anyone to subscribe to a game's forum, they first have to find out about the game, and then they have to be exposed to it enough that they develop an interest in it. How will that happen? There's no good method for discovery on this site. So the discovery happens here. I want people to post about their designs here because I won't find out about them otherwise.

*Many* abstract games on BGG have no subscribers at all, either because they're new or because they're obscure. But those are the often very games we discuss here! If I have something say about a game and I post it in one of those forums, I'll be speaking to an empty room.

As an example, the last post I made about one of my games in this forum was this post about Carnivores. In the thread 27 comments were made by other folks. If I'd posted the same thing in the Carnivores forum, it's a certainty that almost no one would have seen it, to say nothing of discussed it.
 
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Richard Moxham
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milomilo122 wrote:
I agree that in the ideal, we should all be using game-specific forums. I would love that. But we're *really* far from the ideal.

I've posted about my games in both the game-specific forums and here, and the posts here invariably generate more discussion. That makes perfect sense because:

For anyone to subscribe to a game's forum, they first have to find out about the game, and then they have to be exposed to it enough that they develop an interest in it. How will that happen? There's no good method for discovery on this site. So the discovery happens here. I want people to post about their designs here because I won't find out about them otherwise.

*Many* abstract games on BGG have no subscribers at all, either because they're new or because they're obscure. But those are the often very games we discuss here! If I have something say about a game and I post it in one of those forums, I'll be speaking to an empty room.

As an example, the last post I made about one of my games in this forum was this post about Carnivores. In the thread 27 comments were made by other folks. If I'd posted the same thing in the Carnivores forum, it's a certainty that almost no one would have seen it, to say nothing of discussed it.

All of this, plus the analogy (which may or may not add anything useful) of a radio or tv programme which on the basis of the description in the listings would never have appealed, but which grabs your attention when you happen upon it in scrolling through the channels.

 
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Russ Williams
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Then why not start the discussion in the game's forum, and post an announcement (with direct link to the discussion) about it here? That addresses your concern about people not seeing it, while ALSO making all the discussion exist in the game's forum where it's all much more easily found for someone who actually wants to actively find info about the game. As it stands now, someone who wants info about Carnivores or Morelli will look in their forums and find only a tiny amount of what has been posted about them, because the majority of it is spread across various threads in the general Abstracts forum.
 
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christian freeling
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russ wrote:
Then why not start the discussion in the game's forum, and post an announcement (with direct link to the discussion) about it here? That addresses your concern about people not seeing it, while ALSO making all the discussion exist in the game's forum where it's all much more easily found for someone who actually wants to actively find info about the game. As it stands now, someone who wants info about Carnivores or Morelli will look in their forums and find only a tiny amount of what has been posted about them, because the majority of it is spread across various threads in the general Abstracts forum.

It may work for Dameo, so I'm going to try. Now there are several sub-fora and personally it doesn't seem I might need them all, but I would like a sub-forum named "Problems". How do I create that?
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Russ Williams
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christianF wrote:
It may work for Dameo, so I'm going to try. Now there are several sub-fora and personally it doesn't seem I might need them all, but I would like a sub-forum named "Problems". How do I create that?

You can't create new forums, but I think traditionally problems tend to go into the Strategy forum, or the General forum. (Personally I'd put them in the Strategy forum.)

(Consider "Strategy" to be a catchall for "any kind of discussion about how to play the game well or which will help you make better decisions in the game, etc".)
 
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