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Master of Orion: The Board Game» Forums » General

Subject: New Era, not TI3 or Eclipse rss

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Aleksandr Savenkov
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RogMcK wrote:
Not if it was still a 60 minute card game.
No matter how many times you'll have to repeat that, it won't change anything about the game. You have to accept this is the it's going to be. The more you expect, the more you'll be disappointed.

Allow me to ask you to stop hating on a game you know nearly nothing about. I do honestly believe that if you'll try it out without thinking of "how it should've been", this game might pleasantly surprise you.
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Trey Chambers
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vpupkin wrote:
No matter how many times you'll have to repeat that, it won't change anything about the game. You have to accept this is the it's going to be. The more you expect, the more you'll be disappointed.


And you have to accept that people are going to have different opinions than you. And their voices should be heard, whether you agree with them or not.

Many people spent many years enjoying Master of Orion and its sequel (we'll ignore 3 exists for now...). And we understand that there is no way a card game can embody the spirit of that game.

And I love games like Star Realms or Race for the Galaxy, but I don't want a beloved epic sci-fi IP slapped onto some 60 minute card game that could have just as easily been given a generic space theme and no one would have noticed. If you're going to call it Master of Orion, do it right.
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Roger McKay
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Shampoo4you wrote:
vpupkin wrote:
No matter how many times you'll have to repeat that, it won't change anything about the game. You have to accept this is the it's going to be. The more you expect, the more you'll be disappointed.


And you have to accept that people are going to have different opinions than you. And their voices should be heard, whether you agree with them or not.

Many people spent many years enjoying Master of Orion and its sequel (we'll ignore 3 exists for now...). And we understand that there is no way a card game can embody the spirit of that game.

And I love games like Star Realms or Race for the Galaxy, but I don't want a beloved epic sci-fi IP slapped onto some 60 minute card game that could have just as easily been given a generic space theme and no one would have noticed. If you're going to call is Master of Orion, do it right.


EXACTLY. I have zero objections to the proposed design. It just does not deserve the name it has been given. It cannot do the IP justice.
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Marcel van der pol
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MOO1 had a global production queue that was contributed to by planets. MOo2 is the game that had planet by planet production.


Yes, I rather liked the elegance of MoO 1's "slider" approach to planetary production of resources (be it Industrial, Biological, Science, Defense or Economy). It was quite simple and elegant and gave the user explicit control over this without going too much into the detailed "per planet" build queue that MoO 2 does.

MoO 2 slows down quite heavily in the later game, especially on a huge galactic map with all the build queue notifications.
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George Kizilis
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vpupkin wrote:
As someone who's a bit familiar with the game and it's author, I want to save everyone from making false assumptions.

This game won't be anything like Twilight Imperium 3, Eclipse, or anything like that. Neither it will be a streamlined version of those games. Many of those who played it say it feels more like New Era or Race for the Galaxy. That's why it says it's playtime is 40-60 minutes, not per player.

That's not necessarily a bad thing for me. I am struggling to get big games on the table. Already own: Eclipse, TI3 + 2 exps, Star Trek Fleet Capts.

I would welcome something in the MOO universe that doesn't take hours to play. So I am still hoping.....
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George Kizilis
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marcelvdpol wrote:
Quote:
MOO1 had a global production queue that was contributed to by planets. MOo2 is the game that had planet by planet production.


Yes, I rather liked the elegance of MoO 1's "slider" approach to planetary production of resources (be it Industrial, Biological, Science, Defense or Economy). It was quite simple and elegant and gave the user explicit control over this without going too much into the detailed "per planet" build queue that MoO 2 does.

MoO 2 slows down quite heavily in the later game, especially on a huge galactic map with all the build queue notifications.


Hehehe so true! If you thought MOO2 slowed down later in game on a huge galaxy, you should have seen SpaceEmpiresIV....crywowshake
 
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Marcel van der pol
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gkizilis wrote:
marcelvdpol wrote:
Quote:
MOO1 had a global production queue that was contributed to by planets. MOo2 is the game that had planet by planet production.


Yes, I rather liked the elegance of MoO 1's "slider" approach to planetary production of resources (be it Industrial, Biological, Science, Defense or Economy). It was quite simple and elegant and gave the user explicit control over this without going too much into the detailed "per planet" build queue that MoO 2 does.

MoO 2 slows down quite heavily in the later game, especially on a huge galactic map with all the build queue notifications.


Hehehe so true! If you thought MOO2 slowed down later in game on a huge galaxy, you should have seen SpaceEmpiresIV....crywowshake


I have seen that yes. It got to the point where a turn took a really, really, really long time to complete. The point is that there is a difference between a 4x-in-space strategy game and a 4x-in-space micromanagement game. MoO2 was in certain aspects too much micromanagement which MoO1 didn't have which is why I like MoO1 more than MoO2 (although they were both very good games). MoO3 tried to "AI" away the micro management stuff but failed horribly.....

I compare MoO1 more to the board game Eclipse and MoO2 to TI3. Both have that 4x feeling and the strategic decision making but Eclipse manages it to run much smoother compared to TI3.
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Jeff Fike
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As a MOO "enthusiast", a MOO game, whether it is 60 minute card game or a more epic board game. It MUST have these things:

Orion - ancient race now gone but with tech and lingering guardians
Races
Specifically:
- One that produces (manufacturing)
- One that invades planets
- One that is science focused
- One that grows population quicker
- One that trades more efficiently
- One that steals/espionage
- One that has better fighters

The core of any MOO game was about these min/max races having specific branches of advantage. This also means any MOO game must have:

- Espionage
- Trade
- Colonization
- Space battles
- Land battles/planetary invasion
- Manufacturing
- Science

Anything short of the above, completely misses the mark and fails to honor the MOO legacy.
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Eric Pietrocupo
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Quote:
The core of any MOO game was about these min/max races having specific branches of advantage. This also means any MOO game must have:

- Espionage
- Trade
- Colonization
- Space battles
- Land battles/planetary invasion
- Manufacturing
- Science


I am will be trying to defend the game here, but I do think that most of the elements above should be there.

Espionage: Was there espionage in the original MOO1 game? it could be a way to make a player lose a card (theft, sabotage, etc)


Trade
: In MOO2, trade is pretty limited, it's basically a treaty you can have. There is no trading like there can be in catan. Treaties were indeed useful, sometimes too much powerful, but I dont think it's a core mechanishm


Colonisation:
Indeed if you want to keep the "Expand" X, could be easily be resolved with planet cards like in Microcosm. 3 to 5 planets per player could be enough

Space battles
Land battles/planetary invasion:
This could be combined, I even suggested for a TI card game similar to rune age that you could have a space strength and a ground strength. If you win space battles (greater str), you destroy bases and other stuff, but you need ground strength to capture the planet.

Manufacturing: Should basically be a currency representing the production you have to buy stuff. Producing individual units is impossible, since it only has cards.

Science: Either another kind of currency for science to buy new cards, so you can simply take a tech card from the top of the deck. They would all have the same value. Or they could have levels, ( get the next level 2 tech cards of category X). Or like microcosm, you get a card that gives you an advantage over other players (but that mechanics works better at 2 players)

So most of the thematic concepts are implementable, but they are of course abstracted to the maximum.
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Sebastian Grawan
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I sometimes think the MOO boardgame could just be a re-themed 'Eminent Domain'.
 
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Eric Pietrocupo
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Yes it's a possibility. I have been looking at my ideas above and they could fit with San Juan or Eminient domain mechanics. Sure there should be a lot in common if they decide to use a role system since even CVlisation does it.

The main differences would be the player board which is probably used for recording tech level, and the possibility to attack other players which is not available in race for the galaxy and san juan, not sure about CVlisation.
 
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RogMcK wrote:
larienna wrote:
Quote:
I see your point, but the action could start on turn two, if the players want it to.

Remember, that MoO2 was very much about resource management.


Really unlikely to happen because normally it takes like 7-8 turns before players can actually build up forces and be ready to engage in battle. Then the games en on turn 9. Same thing with TI3 especially with the original roles.

I those game have cool mechanics. They are amazing mechanics in TI3 and especially Eclipse because it convinced me to buy the game. But I ended up selling because I really did not like the general feeling of the game. So I guess that would be, borrow what you like and create a new game. But there are so many space opera board game out there, (more than civ games) that it's not worth the effort unless I do it as a digital game.


It is up to the players when they decide to go aggressive. Research improves effectiveness, but so does quickness and productivity. There is more than one way to win.

The cool mechanics were my initial draw to the game, too. Much like Agricola. Although (unlike Agricola) I did have much interest in the theme, as well. Eclipse ends too soon for me.

I totally agree with RogMcK.

The way the players play the game can lead to agressive actions and opportunity as soon as the third round. Our plays of Eclipse are always tensed and dynamic. Unless rookie players are present, of course : they hesitate too much to get into action.

Eclipse cannot be reduced to a resource management game, definitely. Agricola can. And how boring is Agricola !
 
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Jack Sweek

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halbower wrote:
I think I'll be passing on this game too. Race for the Galaxy, Eminent Domain and Star Realms already exist. Why saturate that market?
This game does not play like Race for the Galaxy or Star Realms (can't speak for Eminent Domain as I haven't played it). There might be a game similar to this although at the time I can't think of any examples that the gameplay reminds me of.

I will say playing the game, gives the classic feeling of playing MOO. There are multiple paths to win but some things that were done are abstracted.

For those expecting 1:1 translation of a video game to a table top game, they will be disappointed. I would point out if there was a 1:1 translation, then why bother playing the table top game when you can just play it online. There has to be something new, innovated and different that gives the overall feeling of the game it belongs too. Very similar to what XCom Board Game did to the video game.
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Eric Pietrocupo
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From what I can see, it's more like a tableau building game seen in many civ like games. If my memory is right "through the ages" and "imperial settlers" are those kind of games. I think they just used the same concept and put it into space. So yes, that gives little similarities to Star Realms, Race for the Galaxy and Eminent Domain.
 
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Jack Sweek

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larienna wrote:
From what I can see, it's more like a tableau building game seen in many civ like games. If my memory is right "through the ages" and "imperial settlers" are those kind of games. I think they just used the same concept and put it into space. So yes, that gives little similarities to Star Realms, Race for the Galaxy and Eminent Domain.
I haven't played Imperial Settlers or Through the Ages. I'll see if there are some decent gameplay videos to look at.

I played it at GenCon and it didn't feel similar to Star Realms or Race for the Galaxy at all to me. Unless you mean there are star systems, you build and manage stuff... in which case many games are the same. The gameplay and style flowed well in the games we played, it gave the core feeling of MOO. There are no custom ship building, there isn't building ground forces, loading them on transports to take over systems. That has been abstracted in a way, although a good portion of the time playing the video game was managing that... that wasn't the game.
 
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Eric Pietrocupo
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"CVlization", "Nations", Seems to be other tableau building civilization games which mostly consist in acquiring cards and placing them in from of you to get resources and special abilities. Each games has some twists of their own of course.

Master of Orion seems pretty similar to me and since I don't have such kind of game in my collection and since most of the games I discovered so far did not really interest me, If MOO board game can do the job accurately, I would be interested to get it.
 
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Marc Bennett
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larienna wrote:
I even suggested for a TI card game similar to rune age that you could have a space strength and a ground strength. If you win space battles (greater str), you destroy bases and other stuff, but you need ground strength to capture the planet.


i would play that. i mean not because of TI3 but i love the idea of the mechanics, i enjoyed rune age.
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Eric Pietrocupo
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I am also one of the few people that loves rune age. In fact it's really weird, from what I can see, people who loves most deck builder hate Rune Age, and people who hate most deck builder loves Rune Age.

I am not sure if FFG will do it, they do a lot of stuff already, so maybe in the future they can come up with something. It's also one of their franchise that was there since the beginning of the company.

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vpupkin wrote:
Many of those who played it say it feels more like New Era or Race for the Galaxy. That's why it says it's playtime is 40-60 minutes, not per player.


First in bold: The guy wrote, "It feels". Not "it is".

Second in bold:Well,if it feels like new era-which is not just another card game for sure-I'll definitely check it out.
 
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I know absolutely nothing about the design of this game. But I am really really hoping it's a clever design that truly captures the feel of MoO. Yes, because that will be a fun game I'd want to buy. But also because it will be awesome to watch the devastation to this thread as dozens of posts prematurely declaring it couldn't be done are quietly deleted.
ninja

EDIT: Before I get lambasted, I'll add that I also suspect it is too much to expect from this implementation. But I'm also looking forward, hopefully, to being pleasantly surprised.
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Roger McKay
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JJL_WashDC wrote:
I know absolutely nothing about the design of this game. But I am really really hoping it's a clever design that truly captures the feel of MoO. Yes, because that will be a fun game I'd want to buy. But also because it will be awesome to watch the devastation to this thread as dozens of posts prematurely declaring it couldn't be done are quietly deleted.
ninja

EDIT: Before I get lambasted, I'll add that I also suspect it is too much to expect from this implementation. But I'm also looking forward, hopefully, to being pleasantly surprised.


I think that most of us nay-sayers are being genuine in our doubts, while you are merely looking for a fight.
 
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Chris Ruf
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RogMcK wrote:
JJL_WashDC wrote:
I know absolutely nothing about the design of this game. But I am really really hoping it's a clever design that truly captures the feel of MoO. Yes, because that will be a fun game I'd want to buy. But also because it will be awesome to watch the devastation to this thread as dozens of posts prematurely declaring it couldn't be done are quietly deleted.
ninja

EDIT: Before I get lambasted, I'll add that I also suspect it is too much to expect from this implementation. But I'm also looking forward, hopefully, to being pleasantly surprised.


I think that most of us nay-sayers are being genuine in our doubts, while you are merely looking for a fight.


By being hopeful? Or the somewhat humorous comment about thread devestation? Not sure how either of those comments indicate he is looking for a fight.
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Alan Emrich wrote:
Huh... as someone very associated with the original MASTER OF ORION computer games, having written the strategy guide and really knowing what makes them tick, I always thought it deserved a good boardgame version.

I hope it's getting one.

Alan Emrich


May I pay my respects, Mr Emrich: that was one of the best and most useful strategy guides I ever had for a computer game! Kudos, sir!

Sadly, I loaned it out and never got it back. And now with the new MOO out on Steam with a Collectors Edition that includes the three older games, looks like I'll get to play original MOO again -- now let's see if I can still remember enough of the strategy to do well...
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Trey Chambers
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Judging from Tom's video:

-The game is incredibly short and light.

-The aliens are only slightly different from each other.

-The game has no real player interaction whatsoever. No negotiation. No trade. No espionage. No deception. No bluffing. No blockading. Hell, no SHIPS for that matter.

-The one "interactive" thing? You can do an incredibly abstract "attack", and basically just spend some "weapons" to gain 2 points while your opponent takes a small penalty to their "loyalty" (which isn't really representative of loyalty, it's just yet another track to manage on your spreadsheet).

-Speaking of abstract combat, theme in general is basically missing. This is strictly an abstract cube pusher, and a very light one at that.

What do you remember from MoO? Very unique alien races. Ship design. Fleet battles. Exploration. Intrigue. Politics. Research. Different ways to win. The game has NONE of this. There was also planet and resource management. The game has that ONLY, and none of the other elements I mentioned.

I'm not saying it's a bad game. I'm saying it's not MoO in anyway, and has the IP slapped on it like slapping a Star Wars theme on Tumblin Dice and calling it Star Wars: Tumble in Tattooine or something.

Someone made a post asking me why I don't lose it over other IPs like this? Well I can ignore misuse of Star Wars theme because Rebellion DOES exist. Imperial DOES exist. Armada DOES exist. There are plenty of thematic Star Wars experiences to be had already, so it's not a big deal if they release other games that don't encapsulate the IP. The same goes for Game of Thrones, LOTR...etc.

But to take one of my favorite video game IP's and slap it on a board game that's nothing like it is egregious. It also makes me worried that because they took it in this direction, they won't bother making a more authentic MoO game in the future. I hope I am wrong on this point.
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Alan Emrich
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Quote:
What do you remember from MoO? Very unique alien races. Ship design. Fleet battles. Exploration. Intrigue. Politics. Research. Different ways to win. The game has NONE of this. There was also planet and resource management. The game has that ONLY, and none of the other elements I mentioned.


Damn! Then it remains on my bucket list to produce a great 4X boardgame in the best traditions on MOO with those wonderful aspects we remember.

I should live so long!

Alan Emrich
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