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Subject: A Friendly Word for New Members of the Guild! rss

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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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klkitchens wrote:
But we are not mind readers and cannot anticipate every minuscule way a phrase, word, or letter choice can be misinterpreted.

Seriously, no one is asking for that. That would be impossible.

I am just asking for the attempt to be nice and being big enough to apologize if something said does turn out to be unintentionally offensive. Not really that much to ask.

And again, I am sorry if I have said anything to upset you, it was not my intent. I am as eager to see you feel welcome here as everyone else.
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klkitchens wrote:
oduh wrote:
Some of this borders on victim blaming and is not at all in the spirit of this thread.

I would NEVER blame a true victim of a crime or attack. Nothing I said borders on that in the slightest.

marble911 wrote:
Too thick a skin (it's mentioned twice) might make you rather inflexible. And when aiming for a welcoming community, a heart is probably the better organ to be guided by than a thick skin.

The two are not mutually exclusive at all.

A thick skin governs the hearer.
A kind heart governs the speaker.

Both are required, not sure why you'd believe you can only have one or the other.
I didn't say that they are mutually exclusive. I said being guided by one would be more helpful in creating a welcoming community than being guided by the other.

When you make 9 points out of 10 on a list about the responsibilities of the receiver of a message, it might seem like you are holding one a lot more responsible than the other.

"you have no right not to be offended" has often been used to condone attacks, and to tell people that they needn't/shouldn't think about other people's feelings at all, because their freedom to say whatever they wanted was the only thing that mattered.
That might very well not have been your intention, nevertheless it is something I have come to associate with that expression.

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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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Osyrn wrote:
Jude wrote:
Osyrn wrote:
Well said Rev!

Welcome to all the new members! Whether you decide to lurk in the shadows of the guild (like I did for quite a while ) or you become active on a daily basis, I gotta agree with others here, this is the friendliest place on the Internet!

"C'mon in boys, the water is fine!"

Not a boy. Also, it's not always friendly here, especially if not male. Although Albert has done a good job of moderating when necessary.

It's fine that so many people here think that this is a great, friendly, welcoming guild. And, it usually is. But the point of the thread is that it can easily change by ignoring (or condoning) sexist, racist, and other bigoted and demeaning comments because you (the generic "you" -- not you in particular) think they are funny or at least not offensive to you, and also by assuming that everyone here is of a particular type -- male, for example.

Totally agree Judy. I was certainly not condoning bad behavior nor assuming everyone here was of a particular type with the quote. I was just quoting "Oh Brother Where Art Thou" (and used the subsequent picture) to say "welcome to all the new members, come on in and join a great group and have some fun."

I meant no offense by it and I'm sorry to hear offense was taken. That wasn't my intent.

And that is how it is done folks! A reasonable discussion, an apology, a lesson learned about inclusion and the space gets just a little bit more welcoming for those who don't always feel that way.

I love you folks!
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
klkitchens wrote:
1. Have a thick skin.

2. Hide posts and people that you find offensive to you.

3. Realize that you have no right not to be offended.

4. There are no such things as "safe spaces"

5. Don't attack others.

6. Don't imagine criticism to be an attack.

7. Don't imagine difference of opinion to be an attack.

8. Don't imagine not agreeing with you to be an attack.

9. Don't imagine unacceptance of your choices to be an attack.

10. Have a thick skin.


Whatever...

Making a space feel safer for participants who might be less "thick skinned" than you is a noble goal. If you feel the need to be a curmudgeon, that is your "right" but it isn't very kind or giving, principles I thought were part of beliefs you have professed to hold elsewhere on this site. Blessed are the meek and all...

Ok, on rereading this post, it is pretty clearly condescending on my part. My apologies Kevin, my bad.
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Marty "TIRED" Malone
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I think that a lot of this boils down to respecting the thread. Whatever it is.

I wanted to talk about soccer so I started a footy talk thread. That way conversations about soccer wouldn't derail other threads.

Soccer however isn't even in the same arena as religions, politics, sex, race. These topics are notorious for polarizing and are at a person's emotional core.

I believe with all that I am that every breathing individual on this planet has the right to feel and believe as they choose... As long as it causes no physical or emotional harm to another individual.

We are experiencing growing pains with 4500+ members and a large number are active. With more comes more.

I don't want a checklist of behavior guidelines. I want a fun, genuine, supportive, cheeky place. I imagine us sitting around a game table discussing games, bantering, ribbing each other for bad dice rolls and discussing things around the world that affect us. Movies, sports, beer, new games, new game rooms or tables, births and fights with cancer. Even struggles.... with someones struggles though comes a bit more tact. I have witnessed an outpouring of support for so many in our group and that was the magic that drew people to this corner of the interweb.

The magic is still there... it just gets muddied up sometimes as more people splash around in our little pond. The mud will settle if we all let it.

I wish you all nothing but the best. I love to see your pictures of new rooms and game setups and locations, I love to hear about your victories and defeats - (those are usually funnier) I love to hear the good things that happen in your lives and my heart aches for those that face enormous struggles. I thank you all for making this my home on the web.

I was hosting a gaming night with some of my close friends, there were 5 of us and 2 friends were from 1 area in my life and the other 2 were each from another area. At one point someone started to talk politics...
This is what I said "I honestly value each of you as my friends but I don't know each of your political views- if you want to discuss politics with me or someone else here, please step away from the table or call or email but I have learned that this can be a hot topic and I don't want it to affect the enjoyment of gaming with you all for myself or any of you. I hope you understand."

Game On
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Agreed. It basically comes down to the individual being obliged to respect those in a discussion thread.

Yet respect is largely a preconscious habit. If you have to think about it, you're forcing it; if you're forcing it, you don't have it, but at least you're forming a new habit. I would suggest that, for this reason, making a list of rules governing individual behavior will always cause more problems than it will prevent until the problems caused by NOT having a list of rules become more than you can bear.

So, basically, the cause of the 1-player guild's success is that most people here have just that level of maturity and respect. Probably something to do with being the type of person who, in solitude, pushes around pieces of cardboard. Silence and self-reflection is mighty transformative.
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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TheUbiquitous wrote:
Agreed.

It basically comes down to the individual being obliged to respect those in a discussion thread. I would suggest that making a list of rules governing individual behavior will always cause more problems than it will prevent until the problems caused by NOT having a list of rules become more than you can bear. Respect is largely a preconscious habit. If you have to think about it, you're forcing it; if you're forcing it, you don't have it, but at least you're forming a new habit.

So, basically, the cause of the 1-player guild's success is that most people here have just that level of maturity and respect. Probably something to do with being the type of person who, in solitude, pushes around pieces of cardboard. Silence and self-reflection is mighty transformative.

Well put!

I was definitely not trying to post "rules", in fact I tried to make it clear in the OP that these are just some guidelines to help explain/maintain the great vibe here. Freewheeling but respectful discussion is ideal! I chafe against rules too, but a little friendly guidance when entering a new community can be helpful.
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
klkitchens wrote:
1. Have a thick skin.

2. Hide posts and people that you find offensive to you.

3. Realize that you have no right not to be offended.

4. There are no such things as "safe spaces"

5. Don't attack others.

6. Don't imagine criticism to be an attack.

7. Don't imagine difference of opinion to be an attack.

8. Don't imagine not agreeing with you to be an attack.

9. Don't imagine unacceptance of your choices to be an attack.

10. Have a thick skin.


Whatever...

Making a space feel safer for participants who might be less "thick skinned" than you is a noble goal. If you feel the need to be a curmudgeon, that is your "right" but it isn't very kind or giving, principles I thought were part of beliefs you have professed to hold elsewhere on this site. Blessed are the meek and all...

Please remember that sometimes a "Safe Place" means that you don't have to censor yourself from making comments that might offend others. Conversations occur between people and there is just as much responsibility on the part of the receiver to not jump to taking an offense and hearing what the other person is actually trying to say. I think that is where Kevin was going with his post and that is why I thumbed it before it was taken down.

Paul, (who has been through enough group therapy to know a thing or two about this.)
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Greg
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How come I can't see any of klkitchen's original posts that people are quoting in this thread? They get deleted?
 
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Marty "TIRED" Malone
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Phate999 wrote:
How come I can't see any of klkitchen's original posts that people are quoting in this thread? They get deleted?

I think he took them down.
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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PaulRadagast wrote:


Please remember that sometimes a "Safe Place" means that you don't have to censor yourself from making comments that might offend others. Conversations occur between people and there is just as much responsibility on the part of the receiver to not jump to taking an offense and hearing what the other person is actually trying to say. I think that is where Kevin was going with his post and that is why I thumbed it before it was taken down.

Paul, (who has been through enough group therapy to know a thing or two about this.)

In difficult group therapy (which I am very familiar with too, as both a participant and a group leader) this can often be true because the goal of that therapy is to address difficult issues. Those issues can be tough to address when the inclination is already to censor those difficult thoughts. It is a poor analogy for the discussion here though, that isn't the kind of safe space I am talking about when it comes to the 1PG.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely agree that it is important to pay attention to what a speaker means, their intent is important, but in truth there have been very few instances in the 1PG of people taking quick offense where it wasn't intended. However, there have been a number of instances lately where people have spoken (written) with clear and disrespectful disregard for the feelings and experiences of others. Hence my OP.

I stand by my belief that this is the kind of space where we should be mindful of making comments that will be taken as offensive, especially by others who can already feel marginalized. A moment of sober second thought before posting costs nothing and can mean the difference between someone feeling welcome here and someone feeling excluded.

You are, of course, free to disagree.
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
klkitchens wrote:
Something I do believe in as part of my faith, which you seemed eager to attack, much like the incident which spawned this thread.

To be very clear, in the thread that spawned this post I did not attack anyone's faith.

What happened was a person I consider a friend was posting about how they were in an emotional and mental health crisis, and how their own faith had helped them. When someone came into the thread and posted about how that faith was inappropriate and theirs was better, with complete disregard for the feelings and mental state of the OP, I called them out on it. I did call them out way too harshly, which I apologized for later in the thread (and by GM), and the poster also apologized for jumping into the thread and posting what they did without understanding the context.

I have no interest in demeaning or attacking anyone's faith, and I apologize if I have come across that way.

"When someone came into the thread and posted about how that faith was inappropriate and theirs was better, with complete disregard for the feelings and mental state of the OP, I called them out on it."

I actually asked about what Ava was talking about when she said that. Another poster provided a link to a wiki about it being a Chinese mythical deity. Then I replied to that poster with a quote from the bible in Isaiah about there only being one God and no others. I did not do that with "complete disregard for the feelings" of Ava (I did it simply because I believe the Christian God is the most solid, and credible, object of any Faith currently in the world) but in hindsight, it is true to say that I did not fully realize the "mental state of the OP" when I posted in the thread.

Also I never said her faith was "inappropriate" nor that my faith "was better". That's just simply false and anyone can go back to the thread and verify that.

I'm not interested in going back over everything that went down, I just wanted to emphasize that I did and do care for Ava's feelings at the time but now that I know more about her mental state, I would have changed the manner and content with which I chose to post what I did.

At any rate, I hope we can move passed all that and get along as normal!
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PaulRadagast wrote:
Please remember that sometimes a "Safe Place" means that you don't have to censor yourself from making comments that might offend others. Conversations occur between people and there is just as much responsibility on the part of the receiver to not jump to taking an offense and hearing what the other person is actually trying to say. I think that is where Kevin was going with his post and that is why I thumbed it before it was taken down.

Paul, (who has been through enough group therapy to know a thing or two about this.)
This is a good point. We had the case on page 1 of someone making an inside joke that was almost take offensively by someone else who wasn't aware of the context. We don't want to, as I said before, slide into anodyne. Conversation is a two-way street.

The trouble area that is unavoidable is when someone elevates their need to express themself (is that a word?) over decorum (behavior in keeping with good taste and propriety). There are no absolute rules; it's a matter of context and maturity. When to speak up, how to speak up, when to keep quiet relative to the greater good of the context. There will be times when it's more of a conscious effort on the part of either the sender or the receiver.
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Phate999 wrote:
Then I replied to that poster with a quote from the bible in Isaiah about there only being one God and no others.

Phate999 wrote:
Also I never said her faith was "inappropriate" nor that my faith "was better". That's just simply false and anyone can go back to the thread and verify that.

To many readers these two statements will appear to be at odds with each other.

Anway, we have had this argument and apologies have already been given, not sure if there is any point in rehashing it here.
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To be honest, I am feeling disappointed that my OP suggesting we play nice with each other and take into account the feelings of others particularly those who already feel marginalized, has become a "controversial" discussion for some. This thread is becoming emotionally exhausting for me at this point.

Is it that hard to be nice to each other? Is it that tough to take a moment to think about what we say? Why is thinking about what we say before we say it considered such a negative thing by some people? Isn't that how we learn? Is common courtesy really such a controversial suggestion?

To make it clear, one more time, I was not suggesting rules of conduct! I am not trying to censor anyone! I was simply trying to illuminate what makes this guild feel like a more welcoming place than many other forums, particularly when talking about those who are often marginalized online, and putting in my vote that it continues to be so.

You may all take it or leave it, it is just one person's opinion.
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
To be honest, I am feeling disappointed that my OP suggesting we play nice with each other and take into account the feelings of others particularly those who already feel marginalized, has become a "controversial" discussion for some. This thread is becoming emotionally exhausting for me at this point.

Is it that hard to be nice to each other? Is it that tough to take a moment to think about what we say? Why is thinking about what we say before we say it considered such a negative thing by some people? Isn't that how we learn? Is common courtesy really such a controversial suggestion?

To make it clear, one more time, I was not suggesting rules of conduct! I am not trying to censor anyone! I was simply trying to illuminate what makes this guild feel like a more welcoming place than many other forums, and putting in my vote that it continues to be so.

You may all take it or leave it, it is just one person's opinion.
Take heart. This is simply par for the course for discussing a complex subject on the internet. Your intention is clear and, I think, well received.
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enzo622 wrote:
reverendunclebastard wrote:
To be honest, I am feeling disappointed that my OP suggesting we play nice with each other and take into account the feelings of others particularly those who already feel marginalized, has become a "controversial" discussion for some. This thread is becoming emotionally exhausting for me at this point.

Is it that hard to be nice to each other? Is it that tough to take a moment to think about what we say? Why is thinking about what we say before we say it considered such a negative thing by some people? Isn't that how we learn? Is common courtesy really such a controversial suggestion?

To make it clear, one more time, I was not suggesting rules of conduct! I am not trying to censor anyone! I was simply trying to illuminate what makes this guild feel like a more welcoming place than many other forums, and putting in my vote that it continues to be so.

You may all take it or leave it, it is just one person's opinion.
Take heart. This is simply par for the course for discussing a complex subject on the internet. Your intention is clear and, I think, well received.

I guess I just underestimated how "complex" the idea of play nice and think about what you say can be. A fact of life I find exhausting both on and off the internet. I am given hope by the large number of people who thumbed the post in agreement. I think I need to take a break from the internet for a few hours and recharge my batteries.
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
enzo622 wrote:
reverendunclebastard wrote:
To be honest, I am feeling disappointed that my OP suggesting we play nice with each other and take into account the feelings of others particularly those who already feel marginalized, has become a "controversial" discussion for some. This thread is becoming emotionally exhausting for me at this point.

Is it that hard to be nice to each other? Is it that tough to take a moment to think about what we say? Why is thinking about what we say before we say it considered such a negative thing by some people? Isn't that how we learn? Is common courtesy really such a controversial suggestion?

To make it clear, one more time, I was not suggesting rules of conduct! I am not trying to censor anyone! I was simply trying to illuminate what makes this guild feel like a more welcoming place than many other forums, and putting in my vote that it continues to be so.

You may all take it or leave it, it is just one person's opinion.
Take heart. This is simply par for the course for discussing a complex subject on the internet. Your intention is clear and, I think, well received.

I guess I just underestimated how "complex" the idea of play nice and think about what you say can be. A fact of life I find exhausting both on and off the internet. I am given hope by the large number of people who thumbed the post in agreement. I think I need to take a break from the internet for a few hours and recharge my batteries.

We got your back. Go play a game. Visit some other forums. Mark this thread read for the rest of the day. It is your thread and I understand the need to check on it but for the most I think everyone agrees with you and is adding their support and two cents. See ya when you return...thumbsup
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
enzo622 wrote:
reverendunclebastard wrote:
To be honest, I am feeling disappointed that my OP suggesting we play nice with each other and take into account the feelings of others particularly those who already feel marginalized, has become a "controversial" discussion for some. This thread is becoming emotionally exhausting for me at this point.

Is it that hard to be nice to each other? Is it that tough to take a moment to think about what we say? Why is thinking about what we say before we say it considered such a negative thing by some people? Isn't that how we learn? Is common courtesy really such a controversial suggestion?

To make it clear, one more time, I was not suggesting rules of conduct! I am not trying to censor anyone! I was simply trying to illuminate what makes this guild feel like a more welcoming place than many other forums, and putting in my vote that it continues to be so.

You may all take it or leave it, it is just one person's opinion.
Take heart. This is simply par for the course for discussing a complex subject on the internet. Your intention is clear and, I think, well received.

I guess I just underestimated how "complex" the idea of play nice and think about what you say can be. A fact of life I find exhausting both on and off the internet. I am given hope by the large number of people who thumbed the post in agreement. I think I need to take a break from the internet for a few hours and recharge my batteries.
If I can be frank here, I personally found the timing of this thread to be suspect. It was right after you just got through ripping me a new one in that other thread. Granted you apologized to me for that (and I understand why you did it) and as far as I am concerned that is water under the bridge, however it is worth noting that you seem to be very confrontational as of recently. So to have this OP, come up when it did and to continually see the way that you argue and seem frustrated, seems to be displaying to the 1PG community a sense of discontinuity in your intent. At least for me it does and I hope I can be frank about that and not get into more trouble.
 
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Phate999 wrote:

If I can be frank here, I personally found the timing of this thread to be suspect. It was right after you just got through ripping me a new one in that other thread. Granted you apologized to me for that and as far as I am concerned that is water under the bridge, however it is worth noting that you seem to be very confrontational as of recently. So to have this OP, come up when it did and to continually see the way that you argue and seem frustrated, seems to be displaying to the 1PG community and sense of discontinuity in your intent. At least for me it does and I hope I can be frank about that and not get into more trouble.

There is nothing "suspect" about the timing, the discussion in the other thread led directly to me posting this thread. I feel very protective of the vibe here, and very protective of the people who post here who don't feel comfortable posting elsewhere on the internet because of the general "internet" attitude of caustic dismissal. I felt a general description of the tone of the community would be helpful for all of those who are relatively new to posting here, including you.

I am feeling a bit exasperated today it is true, but please know it stems from a place of valuing our community. I am not one to argue or be confrontational without cause, but sometimes people behave in a way that I feel someone needs to step up and address. I took one for the team with this post, and now, before my obvious exasperation causes me to act out of character, I am going to step away for a walk in the sunlight and then a game on my table.

Much love,
The Rev
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enzo622 wrote:

Take heart. This is simply par for the course for discussing a complex subject on the internet. Your intention is clear and, I think, well received.

Oh, and thank you for the supportive note, much appreciated...
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
Phate999 wrote:

If I can be frank here, I personally found the timing of this thread to be suspect. It was right after you just got through ripping me a new one in that other thread. Granted you apologized to me for that and as far as I am concerned that is water under the bridge, however it is worth noting that you seem to be very confrontational as of recently. So to have this OP, come up when it did and to continually see the way that you argue and seem frustrated, seems to be displaying to the 1PG community and sense of discontinuity in your intent. At least for me it does and I hope I can be frank about that and not get into more trouble.

There is nothing "suspect" about the timing, the discussion in the other thread led directly to me posting this thread.
Ok, I was correct in what I suspected then.

Quote:
I feel very protective of the vibe here, and very protective of the people who post here who don't feel comfortable posting elsewhere on the internet because of the general "internet" attitude of caustic dismissal. I felt a general description of the tone of the community would be helpful for all of those who are relatively new to posting here, including you.
I see that you are very protective and police the community, desiring a wonderful place for all to come, which is great, but in the process you are not always following your own guidelines in the OP.

Quote:
I am feeling a bit exasperated today it is true, but please know it stems from a place of valuing our community. I am not one to argue or be confrontational without cause, but sometimes people behave in a way that I feel someone needs to step up and address. I took one for the team with this post, and now, before my obvious exasperation causes me to act out of character, I am going to step away for a walk in the sunlight and then a game on my table.

Much love,
The Rev

What do you mean by saying you "took one for the team"? I hope that you enjoy your game, what will you be playing?
 
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Hey, you're touching my face...
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Andy
United States
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Dino DNA!
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After all these comments I still don't know if I should get Mage knight. shake
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Marty "TIRED" Malone
United States
Mansfield
Texas
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Knowledge is light
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Be the Change
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Needs a Poll

Poll
Should Andy get Mage Knight?
yes
nah
      42 answers
Poll created by maloma
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