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Subject: How many attacks does an unharmed Mark III Ogre get? rss

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Michael Taylor
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I say 4. He says 15. Which is correct?

Also can you combine OGRE attacks?

For example, can you make an ATK 12 attack with both missiles?

Thanks!
 
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Russ Williams
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cauldronofevil wrote:
I say 4. He says 15. Which is correct?

Also can you combine OGRE attacks?

For example, can you make an ATK 12 attack with both missiles?

Thanks!


Why do you think only 4? It has 2 missiles, 1 main battery, 4 secondary batteries, and 8 antipersonal - that's a total of 15 weapons. They may attack separately, or combine (see rules 6.06 & 6.07 in the pocket edition rules).
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Niko
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A pristine Mark III has 1 main battery, 4 secondary batteries, 2 missiles, and 8 AP batteries.
Assuming you have enough targets (especially for the AP battery with their short range and target restrictions) that is a maximum of 15 attacks, 13 attacks once the missiles are fired.

Could you elaborate on why you think it should be 4?

And yes, you can combine any and all of those attacks; If there's an adjacent infantry unit that REALLY pissed you off you could make a strength 36 attack against it by firing everything.

EDIT: ninja'd by Russ, even with proper citation thumbsup
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Barry Harvey
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I think the 4 comes from there being 4 different weapon systems (MB, SB, missile and AP).

So 15 (ranged) attacks max, but the infantry would have to be just right.
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David Rock

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cauldronofevil wrote:
I say 4. He says 15. Which is correct?

Also can you combine OGRE attacks?

For example, can you make an ATK 12 attack with both missiles?

Thanks!


Actually, you are both incorrect (although 15 is the most correct answer).

15 accounts for all the different weapons (as already detailed by everyone else), but don't forget that an Ogre can also ram units, which can account for two more attacks (although not during the fire phase). So the total number of attacks for a given turn (combining both movement and fire phases) is 17. Never forget about the ramming; it's a very effective weapon.

This also assumes you are talking about just Ogre (i.e., Ogre Pocket Ed, or the Quick Rules for ODE with basic ramming only and not using Overrun rules), which throws a considerable wrench into the question.

You can definitely combine attacks, even from different types of weapons. 1 MB and 2 SBs, 4SBs, 1 MB and 2SB and 2 Missiles, etc. Combining AP guns is a little different, but can still be combined in most cases. Basically, every discreet weapon can be fired once _every_ turn.

The best analogy in terms of Armor Units would be: imagine you have 4 GEVs, 4 HVYs and 4 MSL. They are all discreet units and can ALL fire every turn for a total of 12 attacks every turn; combined in whatever quantity you want (except for attacks on treads). The weapons on an Ogre are the same thing; each individual battery is the equivalent of a single armor unit in terms of firing.

The Ogre would die very quickly if it could fire only 25% of its weapons every turn.
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Niko
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granitepenguin wrote:
cauldronofevil wrote:
I say 4. He says 15. Which is correct?

Also can you combine OGRE attacks?

For example, can you make an ATK 12 attack with both missiles?

Thanks!


Actually, you are both incorrect (although 15 is the most correct answer).

15 accounts for all the different weapons (as already detailed by everyone else), but don't forget that an Ogre can also ram units, which can account for two more attacks (although not during the fire phase). So the total number of attacks for a given turn (combining both movement and fire phases) is 17. Never forget about the ramming; it's a very effective weapon.
If you want to get pedantic enough to count ramming in attacks about firing weapons I need to point out that it could ram three times
Actually two rams is the maximum, see below
Maybe actually right after all, see further below
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David Rock

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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
If you want to get pedantic enough to count ramming in attacks about firing weapons I need to point out that it could ram three times


6.01.1 Limit on ramming. An Ogre may ram no more than twice per turn, or one enemy Ogre per turn. ;-)
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Niko
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granitepenguin wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
If you want to get pedantic enough to count ramming in attacks about firing weapons I need to point out that it could ram three times


6.01.1 Limit on ramming. An Ogre may ram no more than twice per turn, or one enemy Ogre per turn. ;-)
Good point! At least it looks like I'm not alone in having forgotten about it based on the thumbs

While we're on this tangent I might as well get a question in:
Based on the wording of 6.01 and 6.06 moving into an infantry's hex still counts against that limit, right? On one hand 6.06 raises some issues about whether it is called a ram or not, but 6.01 supersedes that when it says that ramming is any move into the same hex as an opposing unit (which includes infantry)
Also, can the second ram still be against an enemy ogre? Since it uses an "or" I think that doesn't work, but am not sure.
 
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Russ Williams
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granitepenguin wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
If you want to get pedantic enough to count ramming in attacks about firing weapons I need to point out that it could ram three times


6.01.1 Limit on ramming. An Ogre may ram no more than twice per turn, or one enemy Ogre per turn. ;-)

Or 5.03.5, for those using the pocket edition rules!

(I looked for such a limit upthread but didn't notice it because I didn't turn the page after looking through the ramming rules on page 9, doh!)
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Russ Williams
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
Based on the wording of 6.01 and 6.06 moving into an infantry's hex still counts against that limit, right? On one hand 6.06 raises some issues about whether it is called a ram or not, but 6.01 supersedes that when it says that ramming is any move into the same hex as an opposing unit (which includes infantry)
Also, can the second ram still be against an enemy ogre? Since it uses an "or" I think that doesn't work, but am not sure.

Interesting; I think infantry overrun is different from ramming and not limited like ramming, at least in the pocket edition:

5.04 says "An Ogre may not ram infantry, but it may move onto or through the infantry hex". So infantry overrun is explicitly not ramming. And infantry overrun is introduced in 5.04, a section after rule 5.03.5 Limit on Ramming in the section 5.03 Ramming.

So it seems like the Ogre Mark III can do 3 infantry overruns.

(If we're counting rams and overruns as "attacks" in the first place, though I think that's obviously not what the OP was talking about.)
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David Rock

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Ze_German_Guy wrote:

While we're on this tangent I might as well get a question in:
Based on the wording of 6.01 and 6.06 moving into an infantry's hex still counts against that limit, right? On one hand 6.06 raises some issues about whether it is called a ram or not, but 6.01 supersedes that when it says that ramming is any move into the same hex as an opposing unit (which includes infantry)
Also, can the second ram still be against an enemy ogre? Since it uses an "or" I think that doesn't work, but am not sure.


6.06 (5.04 in Pocket Ed) both state that moving into a hex with infantry is not a ram. In fact, the Pocket ed is even more more explicit about it:

6.06: An Ogre does not literally “ram” infantry, but any Ogre with AP weapons (or a Superheavy Tank) may move into an infantry hex as though the infantry were not there.

5.04: An Ogre may not ram infantry, but it may move into an infantry hex as though the infantry were not there.

Since reducing infantry by using AP is not ramming, it does not count toward the ramming limit.
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David Rock

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russ wrote:

(If we're counting rams and overruns as "attacks" in the first place, though I think that's obviously not what the OP was talking about.)


Of course it isn't the "spirit" of the original question. Because this is obviously a new player, I simply offered ramming as an important thing to consider because it's crucial to remember ramming's value as an attack. :-)
 
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Niko
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David and Russ: I'm going by the rules from ODE, my understanding was that those are the latest version and therefore supersede others. Might be mistaken about that though.

The first part about "not literally ram[ing] infantry" in 6.06 is what created the doubt for me.
I would read it as "It's technically ramming according to the rules, but due to scale it isn't literally ramming in so far that the infantry isn't run over, but shot by the AP guns", but if previous rules indicate otherwise then I'd probably go with that interpretation instead.
 
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Russ Williams
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
David and Russ: I'm going by the rules from ODE, my understanding was that those are the latest version and therefore supersede others. Might be mistaken about that though.

The (most recent) pocket edition and the deluxe edition were both published at the same time, weren't they?
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granitepenguin wrote:
russ wrote:

(If we're counting rams and overruns as "attacks" in the first place, though I think that's obviously not what the OP was talking about.)


Of course it isn't the "spirit" of the original question. Because this is obviously a new player, I simply offered ramming as an important thing to consider because it's crucial to remember ramming's value as an attack. :-)

But then you should not have instructed that the possible number of attacks is only 17, when it's really 18.
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Niko
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russ wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
David and Russ: I'm going by the rules from ODE, my understanding was that those are the latest version and therefore supersede others. Might be mistaken about that though.

The (most recent) pocket edition and the deluxe edition were both published at the same time, weren't they?
Good point, I'll need to sit down with both sets of rules tonight and check the full things myself.

I don't think it's going to make or break any games either way, but not being sure about rules always bugs me.
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David Rock

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russ wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:
russ wrote:

(If we're counting rams and overruns as "attacks" in the first place, though I think that's obviously not what the OP was talking about.)


Of course it isn't the "spirit" of the original question. Because this is obviously a new player, I simply offered ramming as an important thing to consider because it's crucial to remember ramming's value as an attack. :-)

But then you should not have instructed that the possible number of attacks is only 17, when it's really 18.


Touche' (although 6.06 does say that reducing infantry does not count as an "attack" for the AP weapons)
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David Rock

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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
russ wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
David and Russ: I'm going by the rules from ODE, my understanding was that those are the latest version and therefore supersede others. Might be mistaken about that though.

The (most recent) pocket edition and the deluxe edition were both published at the same time, weren't they?
Good point, I'll need to sit down with both sets of rules tonight and check the full things myself.

I don't think it's going to make or break any games either way, but not being sure about rules always bugs me.


Yes, they were rewritten at the same time. From a practical sense, the ODE rules are the "official current" rules and should be used for most rules discussions. The Pocket Ed rules are a throwback set.

ODE does not exactly supersede the Pocket Ed rules, as they represent two different things. Pocket Ed is a refresh of the original rules using all the information available as part of creating ODE, but in a format that was meant to be a faithful reprinting of the 1st Edition. An unfortunate side-effect of this is some of the wording in the Pocket Ed leans more toward what it looked like in the 1st Ed.

Ze_German_Guy wrote:
The first part about "not literally ram[ing] infantry" in 6.06 is what created the doubt for me.
I would read it as "It's technically ramming according to the rules, but due to scale it isn't literally ramming in so far that the infantry isn't run over, but shot by the AP guns", but if previous rules indicate otherwise then I'd probably go with that interpretation instead.


You will notice, however, that the title of 6.06 is not "Ramming Infantry" but rather "Reducing Infantry." If you read all the other text as well, it's pretty clear this is not a ram in any sense; the Ogre basically ignores the infantry and just reduces the infantry as a matter of course with the AP guns. At no point in the text does it ever call it a ram, therefore it is not ramming and is not subject to the ramming limit. The fact that it's under the ramming section of the rules is just because there's no other logical place to put it.
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Niko
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granitepenguin wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
The first part about "not literally ram[ing] infantry" in 6.06 is what created the doubt for me.
I would read it as "It's technically ramming according to the rules, but due to scale it isn't literally ramming in so far that the infantry isn't run over, but shot by the AP guns", but if previous rules indicate otherwise then I'd probably go with that interpretation instead.


You will notice, however, that the title of 6.06 is not "Ramming Infantry" but rather "Reducing Infantry." If you read all the other text as well, it's pretty clear this is not a ram in any sense; the Ogre basically ignores the infantry and just reduces the infantry as a matter of course with the AP guns. At no point in the text does it ever call it a ram, therefore it is not ramming and is not subject to the ramming limit. The fact that it's under the ramming section of the rules is just because there's no other logical place to put it.
Yes, I think you and Russ got me convinced.
The only thing I'm still trying to reconcile is that 6.01 clearly defines ramming as moving into the same space as an enemy unit and 6.06 doesn't clearly contradict this.
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
Yes, I think you and Russ got me convinced.
The only thing I'm still trying to reconcile is that 6.01 clearly defines ramming as moving into the same space as an enemy unit and 6.06 doesn't clearly contradict this.

Only in the deluxe edition rules does there seem to be that ambiguity, so cool, now I have another reason to be glad I bought the pocket edition (besides the cheap price, the light weight & small size, and the more traditional square non-goofy-looking counters): its rules seem better written.
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
Yes, I think you and Russ got me convinced.
The only thing I'm still trying to reconcile is that 6.01 clearly defines ramming as moving into the same space as an enemy unit and 6.06 doesn't clearly contradict this.


Well, that's not _exactly_ what 6.01 says...
"Ramming a unit is accomplished by moving into its hex."

What it says is in order to ram, you move into the enemy hex. What that means, from a logic perspective, is:

1. All rams involve moving into an enemy hex
2. All movement into an enemy hex is NOT necessarily a ram

Proof that #2 is true is in 6.06: "An Ogre does not actually “ram” infantry"

Your interpretation means you are reading it as "All movement into an enemy hex must be a ram," which is not the case.
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granitepenguin wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
Yes, I think you and Russ got me convinced.
The only thing I'm still trying to reconcile is that 6.01 clearly defines ramming as moving into the same space as an enemy unit and 6.06 doesn't clearly contradict this.


Well, that's not _exactly_ what 6.01 says...
"Ramming a unit is accomplished by moving into its hex."

What it says is in order to ram, you move into the enemy hex. What that means, from a logic perspective, is:

1. All rams involve moving into an enemy hex
2. All movement into an enemy hex is NOT necessarily a ram

Proof that #2 is true is in 6.06: "An Ogre does not actually “ram” infantry"

Your interpretation means you are reading it as "All movement into an enemy hex must be a ram," which is not the case.
You are right about 6.01 indeed not being clear, but 5.03 says that you may only enter another unit's hex to ram or overrun. In combination they mean that any movement into the same hex as an enemy unit is a ram unless overrun rules are used.

And what you are supposedly quoting above isn't what 6.06 says either
ODE rules section 6.06]An Ogre does not literally “ram” infantry, [...][/q wrote:

To quote myself[q="Ze_German_Guy"]The first part about "not literally ram[ing] infantry" in 6.06 is what created the doubt for me.
I would read it as "It's technically ramming according to the rules, but due to scale it isn't literally ramming in so far that the infantry isn't run over, but shot by the AP guns", but if previous rules indicate otherwise then I'd probably go with that interpretation instead.



After reading through both sets of rules they actually agree that infantry isn't rammed.
Pocket's rules are very clear about it since they explicitly say that ramming may only happen against enemy armour units and that infantry may never be rammed separately. The only problem I found with them is that a reference to the infantry overrun rules (5.04) is missing from section 5.02.2 which prohibits moving into enemy hexes except to ram.

ODE's rules are more murky, the section on ramming says moving into [any] enemy unit's hex is ramming and the section on reducing infantry doesn't clearly state that infantry isn't rammed, but it does make an allowance for ogre's and superheavies with AP guns moving through infantry's hexes as if those weren't there.
However, section 6.07 "Ramming by other units" does clearly state that infantry may never ram or be rammed!

Basically, they rules are the same, but ODE isn't quite as well organized (somewhat understandably since the scope for them is larger than for the pocket edition)
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
You are right about 6.01 indeed not being clear, but 5.03 says that you may only enter another unit's hex to ram or overrun. In combination they mean that any movement into the same hex as an enemy unit is a ram unless overrun rules are used.

After reading through both sets of rules they actually agree that infantry isn't rammed.
Pocket's rules are very clear about it since they explicitly say that ramming may only happen against enemy armour units and that infantry may never be rammed separately. The only problem I found with them is that a reference to the infantry overrun rules (5.04) is missing from section 5.02.2 which prohibits moving into enemy hexes except to ram.

ODE's rules are more murky, the section on ramming says moving into [any] enemy unit's hex is ramming and the section on reducing infantry doesn't clearly state that infantry isn't rammed, but it does make an allowance for ogre's and superheavies with AP guns moving through infantry's hexes as if those weren't there.
However, section 6.07 "Ramming by other units" does clearly state that infantry may never ram or be rammed!

Basically, they rules are the same, but ODE isn't quite as well organized (somewhat understandably since the scope for them is larger than for the pocket edition)


This is another unfortunate artifact of history. The term "overrun" is actually used historically when referring to moving into a hex occupied by infantry (Pocket Ed 5.04 is titled "Infantry Overruns"). With the addition of a "real" overrun, that term becomes difficult to use in ODE for the simplistic non-ramming INF overrun (one of several likely reasons for renaming 6.06 to "Reducing Infantry").

As you mention, 6.07 cements the intent, but it is unfortunate that mental gymnastics are needed to get to the correct conclusion. We are all on the same page, I think. Time to fill in this rabbit hole :-)
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