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This is now available for all math trades that haven't already started allowing want list submission... when you edit the MT options you'll see a new checkbox "Use Item Id's for Lot Names"


I added support years ago for this but never ran a real MT to really test it.

What does this mean? Well right now when you generate the official summary (and when user's submit their wants) you see OLWLG generated lot (item) names such as:

0028-TOURN ==> "Tournay" (from brutus60s2)
0029-DOGSHI ==> "The Doge Ship" (from brutus60s2)
0030-DARMOO ==> "Dark Moon" (from brutus60s2)
0031-SJSE ==> "San Juan (second edition)" (from brutus60s2)
0032-MEM44 ==> "Memoir '44" (from brutus60s2)

and

(wingmant) 0970-LAGRA : 0758-CCBB 0469-1OTROTOE
(wingmant) 1202-TRS : 0758-CCBB 0469-1OTROTOE 1474-DUNE
(wingmant) 1463-DUNGT : 1220-DUNGT 0758-CCBB 0469-1OTROTOE

while it makes wants and results kind of human readable, the problem is that if for some reason the organizer needs to re-sync with the geeklist after any participants have submitted their want lists and any item(s) were deleted from the geeklist and/or the game id (or alt name) has changed, lot names will change because the lot name is the relative position of the item in the geeklist (1, 2, 3, etc) and the game/alt name.

Using the item id's, such as

(jeffyjeff) 1167579 : 1884653
(jeffyjeff) 1202657 :
(jeffyjeff) 1261348 : 2616168

which are unique (across all geeklists) identifiers that can not change (can only be deleted if the item is deleted from the geeklist).

I haven't done it yet but this also means the organizer could skip the "generate summary" step all together... instead the OLWLG can generate the "official-names" section automatically at time of getting the wants.

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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
I like the change. It makes life a lot easier when trying to explain how deleting an item doesn't break the OLWLG. Since invariably that question pops up in every MT, and I explain that the OLWLG uses the geeklist item id which does not change relative to position in geeklist. And then they counter with "but the summary always seems to have the geeklist item position number!" and I say "That's really just a summary..."

And then I tear my hair out.

I'm not running another new MT until the Worldwide Promo MT in August, and I'm guessing someone else will step up to do this before then.
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
I will be running my local math trade in about 3 weeks (approximately). I don't mind trying it -- although you may wish to use someone sooner.
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
Juxtatype wrote:
I will be running my local math trade in about 3 weeks (approximately). I don't mind trying it -- although you may wish to use someone sooner.
no hurry... no one else may volunteer who is running one sooner only time will tell ...
 
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
I'll be running the German Leftovers Math Trade next week, I might use it.
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
Nice idea, Jeff. Could you upload a sample testcase to see how it works? I don't expect this to break mathtrader++. How will the official names section look like?
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
Picon wrote:
Nice idea, Jeff. Could you upload a sample testcase to see how it works? I don't expect this to break mathtrader++. How will the official names section look like?
I wouldn't expect it as I assume you parse same syntax for lot names as trademax... sample official names...

# Geeklist: test new geeklist interface
# Summary generated: Tue Jun 7 09:46:33 2016
389145 ==> "Die Macher" (from JeffyJeff)
389146 ==> "Moskito Spiele" (from JeffyJeff)
389147 ==> "Sid Sackson" (from JeffyJeff)
389148 ==> "1848.html" (from JeffyJeff)
389149 ==> "" (from JeffyJeff)
389150 ==> "BoardGameGeek XML API" (from JeffyJeff)
534985 ==> "David & Goliath" (from JeffyJeff)
534986 ==> "Gloria Picktoria" (from JeffyJeff)
......

I may put the geeklist "index" (ie. 1, 2, 3, ...) into the descriptive text part ignored by trademax/tradething/mathtrader++, ie. such as

389145 ==> 1. "Die Macher" (from JeffyJeff)
....

edit: I don't have a real test case yet... I may try to whip up a script to take the official wants from a past MT and convert the lot names to their corresponding geeklist id's... as I do need to test and probably tweak all the post-MT scripts (results summary, most wanted, who wanted mine, etc)
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
Picon wrote:
Could you upload a sample testcase to see how it works?
(http://) bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/172394-wants-using-itemid.txt

should find 142 items trading, this is

(http://) bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/172394-officialwants.txt

converted with a script that appears (in running it w/trademax) to have done what it's supposed to do.

edit: the results from trademax using the converted wants can be found at

(http://) bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/172394-results-using-itemid.txt
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
JeffyJeff wrote:
Picon wrote:
Could you upload a sample testcase to see how it works?
(http://) bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/172394-wants-using-itemid.txt
An outdated, old version of mathtrader++ gives the following output:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
mathtrader++ version 1.2a

[...]

TRADE STATISTICS

Num trades = 142 of 1767 items (8.04%)
Total cost = 142
Num groups = 7
Result processing & report: u: 0.01s, s: 0s, cu: 0s, cs: 0s, real: 0.00581002s
Elapsed real time = 0.782s


(full output here: http://pastebin.com/RZ4gGpbm)

It looks like mathtrader++ can read this just fine. But both TradeMax and mathtrader++ don't translate back the items to the actual names, so a human can't read the text files well. Is that supposed to happen?
 
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
For the regular German math trade I plan to allow manually generated want lists as long as possible so I hope the current summary format will stay available as an option. The new naming system is pretty much asking people to make mistakes if it's all just numbers.
 
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
A skinned math nerd wrote:
It looks like mathtrader++ can read this just fine. But both TradeMax and mathtrader++ don't translate back the items to the actual names, so a human can't read the text files well. Is that supposed to happen?
from base post
JeffyJeff wrote:
(wingmant) 1463-DUNGT : 1220-DUNGT 0758-CCBB 0469-1OTROTOE

while it makes wants and results kind of human readable, ...
but I guess I could have been clear, the trade resolvers don't care what the lot names are, whatever is used for the input is used in the output

I don't have actual numbers but my guess is most participants in a MT that requires the OLWLG never look at the raw results... as even the pseudo human readable lot names aren't very useful to know what you really got and from whom, who you are sending to, etc
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
cuazzel wrote:
For the regular German math trade I plan to allow manually generated want lists as long as possible so I hope the current summary format will stay available as an option. The new naming system is pretty much asking people to make mistakes if it's all just numbers.
this should only be used on MT's where OLWLG use is required from composing to submitting wants (ie. no place for those human errors of math trades of old to creep in).

fwiw in theory it's possible to use item id's *and* a suffix like -MEM44 ... however that introduces the possibility of the problem that the game identifier itself changes... ie. a user offering Memoir '44 changes it to Memoir '44: Mediterranean Theater or anything else. Using just the item id avoids that situation as well.
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
I wonder if Benjamin's desire to keep manual wantlists as long as possible is a language problem with the OLWLG? I guess a German translation would solve that problem? Phew ... that's a big job!

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/13129674#13129674
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
enoon wrote:
I wonder if Benjamin's desire to keep manual wantlists as long as possible is a language problem with the OLWLG? I guess a German translation would solve that problem? Phew ... that's a big job!

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/13129674#13129674
It is, kind of (since the whole point in starting a German MT once was getting new people from Germany into math trading by giving them a chance to do it mostly in their own language).

I also started with the translation once but real life got in the way of that. Also it turned out way more difficult than anticipated because of the very different sentence structure but that's another story.
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
fwiw I completely forgot until I did a quick grep on the OLWLG that I actually ran a math trade way back in 2007 that used the item id's (vs. index based) lot names! See

5 day No limit(*) Math Trade using online wants submission

fwiw it was OLWLG use required... it was very early days of the OLWLG so I was manually generating (running a script on the server) the trades "summary".

Also looks less than a month later Carl ran the MT

Tiers of Joy Math Trade discussion

also using the item id's for the lot names. both MT's used the still relatively new Gentitrade. Sadly it looks like for Carl's I only had the results, at least in the OLWLG... I'll dig to see if I can find his input (wants)
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
cuazzel wrote:
enoon wrote:
I wonder if Benjamin's desire to keep manual wantlists as long as possible is a language problem with the OLWLG? I guess a German translation would solve that problem? Phew ... that's a big job!

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/13129674#13129674
It is, kind of (since the whole point in starting a German MT once was getting new people from Germany into math trading by giving them a chance to do it mostly in their own language).

I also started with the translation once but real life got in the way of that. Also it turned out way more difficult than anticipated because of the very different sentence structure but that's another story.
yea sadly I don't think anyone ended up with a complete translation for their native language. I also at that point I don't think my server's owner ever installed the rest of the Ubuntu language packs as even with the message catalogs gettext wouldn't read them w/out the system ones installed
 
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
If you want to preserve the pseudo-human-readability of the summary, then just use the geeklist item number (instead of the geeklist position number) with the 5-character text abbreviation. This is the best of both worlds.

I'll be running a math trade in the fall that I can test this with.
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
esok wrote:
If you want to preserve the pseudo-human-readability of the summary, then just use the geeklist item number (instead of the geeklist position number) with the 5-character text abbreviation. This is the best of both worlds.
actually not sadly from base post...
JeffyJeff wrote:
while it makes wants and results kind of human readable, the problem is that if for some reason the organizer needs to re-sync with the geeklist after any participants have submitted their want lists and any item(s) were deleted from the geeklist and/or the game id (or alt name) has changed, lot names will change because the lot name is the relative position of the item in the geeklist (1, 2, 3, etc) and the game/alt name.
ie. using the geeklist item number (ordinal position) was only part (though obviously the larger part) of the problem...
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
I have to admit, I never grasped the point of using the geeklistitem IDs instead of using their numerical index in the geeklist instead.

But now that there were again a few newbies that apparently relied on the numerical index number, writing it down before the trade had completed and then blindly adding those items to their WANTS later after some deletions occured (at least that's what I think happened), I remembered about this.

My question is, when using this new feature, will the OLWLG then use and only display the geeklistitem IDs when somebody is looking at the trade in the OLWLG, instead of the numerical index, or does this only apply to the officialnames? It would exactly eliminate the problem of people noting down numbers on paper, if the OLWLG would just show the geeklistitem IDs. Those numbers are bigger and thus more unwieldy (we're at seven digits now), but this might still be an acceptable price to pay instead of doing a re-run.
 
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
JeffyJeff wrote:
I added support years ago for this but never ran a real MT to really test it.
I wanted to use this feature in a current Math trade right now, but didn't understand how to enable it from the information found in this thread. Is it some hidden switch, or did I miss it somehow?
 
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
A skinned math nerd wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
I added support years ago for this but never ran a real MT to really test it.
I wanted to use this feature in a current Math trade right now, but didn't understand how to enable it from the information found in this thread. Is it some hidden switch, or did I miss it somehow?
it's in a part of the "edit info" script but a part only I can see/check boxes in (which also includes marking a MT as "mock", the experimental "priority distance" and "games first" style MT's, hiding a MT from step 2)
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
A skinned math nerd wrote:
I have to admit, I never grasped the point of using the geeklistitem IDs instead of using their numerical index in the geeklist instead.
well in addition to the reasons given in base post and other replies...

... another reason is it's been a long time on my todo to support folks being able to add items to a MT directly into the OLWLG w/out them ever being added to the geeklist (and eventually supporting geeklist-less MT's), but even before then, being able to "import" your items from a previous math trade.... which could also allow you to "import" wants from previous math trades if those items you wanted are also "imported" by their owners into the current MT. Ie. this would help make "left overs" MT's easier I believe, or just in general carrying your un-traded items over from MT to MT.... for all these cases a numerical index makes no sense
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
As far as I understood the previous posts, you are only talking about changing the way that the generated summary .txt file and WANTS input for TradeMax uses different tokens, the geeklist ID numbers instead of some token generated by the OLWLG. This might help with deletions that occur in the geeklist after the final resync with the OLWLG.

As I wrote, I'd like that it will help with deleting items from the geeklist in general, in the sense that people, especially newbies, are writing down the index number of a game, as the OLWLG displays it to them, instead of just adding it to their WANTS list in the OLWLG directly. Those are changing during a resync if there have been items deleted from the geeklist, I reckon. If the OLWLG would display the (arguably way longer) geeklistitem IDs instead, then those would be fixed despite any deletions.
 
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
A skinned math nerd wrote:
As I wrote, I'd like that it will help with deleting items from the geeklist in general, in the sense that people, especially newbies, are writing down the index number of a game, as the OLWLG displays it to them, instead of just adding it to their WANTS list in the OLWLG directly.
are you sure they are writing down the index number from the olwlg display and not by skimming the geeklist directly and writing them down?

as far as what the olwlg displays in step 3 views, in column 1, when using item id's (vs. index) I would just have the olwlg not display any number in column 1. I could make this an option as well for current MT's if you are sure it's from the olwlg they are writing down the index numbers....
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Re: Looking for volunteer MT organizer to test on their next MT using item id's for "lot" names
Hey JeffyJeff, I am running a local Math Trade for a game swap that I'm putting up now. I'd be happy to test this feature.

What exactly do I need to do to enable it?
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