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Subject: New COIN Themes? rss

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N Cart

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Hello,

I have recently discovered the COIN series and have fallen for it. So much so that I would like to start working on a prototype for my own COIN project. I am just curios what are some undone conflicts that would fit the COIN series and have interesting distinct factions. Is there a list conflicts that would fit the theme/mechanics of the COIN series

Thanks.
 
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Jacob Williams
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I have wanted to do a COIN prototype for the Meji Restoration. The factions would be the Tokugawa Shogunate, Shinsengumi, Emperor Meiji, and the Choshu clan. As for the cards, I would go from Perry forcing his entry into Nagasaki Harbor to the Satsuma Rebellion.
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Tom R
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I would love to see a game based on Genghis Khan uniting Mongolia
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Mark Turner
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Iraq is the obvious big one.
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Steve
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Star Wars?

*ducks for cover*
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Leo Zappa
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slashing wrote:
Star Wars?

*ducks for cover*
Already done...

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desertfox2004 wrote:
slashing wrote:
Star Wars?

*ducks for cover*
Already done...

Nothing like COIN...
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Leo Zappa
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rstites25 wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
slashing wrote:
Star Wars?

*ducks for cover*
Already done...

Nothing like COIN...
Yeah, it's better.

In all seriousness, sure, but then, if we are talking Star Wars, what convoluted logic would allow for four competing factions to play against one another? Other than the Empire and the Rebel Alliance, you really only have, maybe, the Hutts/Scum & Villainy. And I guess, my response is partly my reaction to this desire to shoehorn an ever growing list of historical/fantastical themes into this COIN model, whether or not these wars are really suited for the treatment or not. I'm still not convinced, for example, that the American Revolution is really a good fit for a four-sided COIN treatment, but we have one anyways*, and I'm sure given enough time there will be more like that.

*Note, I'm not saying that designers can't or don't make entertaining games out of these situations - they do. I'm just not sure how much these games actually resemble the events they purport to represent.

Don't mind me, though, I think this is just my crusty old grognard on the porch coming out...

...with yer new-fangled COIN games and whatnot! Go git yerself some hexes and counters like we did in my day!!!
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Arthur Cormode
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tombot wrote:
I would love to see a game based on Genghis Khan uniting Mongolia
I'd love to see any Boardgame about Mongolia. Woefully underrepresented.

A COIN gain based on that would be awesome.
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Ganx281 wrote:
Hello,

I have recently discovered the COIN series and have fallen for it. So much so that I would like to start working on a prototype for my own COIN project. I am just curios what are some undone conflicts that would fit the COIN series and have interesting distinct factions. Is there a list conflicts that would fit the theme/mechanics of the COIN series

Thanks.
No offense, but I think you're starting from the wrong perspective. You're basically suggesting a top-down approach of starting with the basic mechanics and then finding a subject matter that works with those mechanics. But I'd argue that the COIN games have been designed from the bottom up: the designer was interested/knowledgeable about a subject or wanted to do a design about a particular subject and then when evaluating what mechanics to use finally settled on the basic COIN model as being a good starting point.

This bottom up approach basically ensures that the game actually models the subject matter in question rather than merely being a thin veneer of "theme" only tangentially related to the history portrayed. It also ensures innovation. Each conflict is different and has its own unique characteristics. The mechanical differences between the volumes of the COIN series haven't been driven by some desire of needing to change something to make people want to buy it, but rather by the necessity of adding/removing/changing aspects of the basic model to actually represent the history/subject being portrayed.
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desertfox2004 wrote:

In all seriousness, sure, but then, if we are talking Star Wars, what convoluted logic would allow for four competing factions to play against one another? Other than the Empire and the Rebel Alliance, you really only have, maybe, the Hutts/Scum & Villainy. And I guess, my response is partly my reaction to this desire to shoehorn an ever growing list of historical/fantastical themes into this COIN model, whether or not these wars are really suited for the treatment or not. I'm still not convinced, for example, that the American Revolution is really a good fit for a four-sided COIN treatment, but we have one anyways*, and I'm sure given enough time there will be more like that.

You erroneously presume that 4-sides is a necessary or defining condition of the COIN series. It is not. See Colonial Twilight: The French-Algerian War, 1954-62. The common meme that LoD's 4-sided depiction of the American Revolution is "wrong" because "how can the Indians or French 'win' the American Revolution" is predicated on an over-simplistic understanding of what "victory" means in wargames generally and the COIN series specifically. The designer makes his case of why he chose four sides and why he thinks it's necessary to explain the revolution fully. You may disagree with his conclusions, but I assure you the four sides are not there in attempt to shoehorn the subject into the subject matter.

None of that has to do with why I say SW:R is nothing like the COIN series. SW:R is a game of hide-and-seek or, to put a military gloss on it, seek-and-destroy. This is the antithesis of the COIN model.
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Jacob Williams
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rstites25 wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
slashing wrote:
Star Wars?

*ducks for cover*
Already done...

Nothing like COIN...
Not to derail too much, but how is it "Nothing like COIN"? In terms of modeling a populations along 2 axes (political and military). It's almost like they stole it from Volko....

I would more or less agree that the similarities end there, but I feel extremely confident when I say this game is a mix of COIN and Letters from White Chapel.
 
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ChromiumAgeCollector wrote:
rstites25 wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
slashing wrote:
Star Wars?

*ducks for cover*
Already done...

Nothing like COIN...
Not to derail too much, but how is it "Nothing like COIN"? In terms of modeling a populations along 2 axes (political and military). It's almost like they stole it from Volko....

I would more or less agree that the similarities end there, but I feel extremely confident when I say this game is a mix of COIN and Letters from White Chapel.
What do you mean by modeling a population militarily?
 
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Jacob Williams
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rstites25 wrote:
ChromiumAgeCollector wrote:
rstites25 wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
slashing wrote:
Star Wars?

*ducks for cover*
Already done...

Nothing like COIN...
Not to derail too much, but how is it "Nothing like COIN"? In terms of modeling a populations along 2 axes (political and military). It's almost like they stole it from Volko....

I would more or less agree that the similarities end there, but I feel extremely confident when I say this game is a mix of COIN and Letters from White Chapel.
What do you mean by modeling a population militarily?
In Rebellion a system can either be under military control (as if a faction had a majority of pieces in a space in COIN) as well as political control (just like support/ opposition). So many times the Empire can subjugated a planet, but the population is loyal to the Rebsl Alliance. Just like how in FitL a space can be COIN control but in active opposition.
 
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Hmmm...I guess I don't really consider that modeling the population. Military control, in the sense you're using it, to me represents a faction's control over the geographic region in the COIN series. This is why it's based on the faction's numbers as compared to other faction's numbers. The population doesn't enter into the control question.

But really that's neither here nor there.

You might be able to draw some parallels between the two--if you treat something general enough, you always can. The COIN series games generally take a population-centric view of counterinsurgency. That's why the support/opposition are generally victory conditions. SW: R is fundamentally different. If you had to categorize its take on counterinsurgency (a dubious task, I know) it would be enemy-centric. The entire game comes down to the Empire's ability to find and destroy the rebel base. Population (loyalty of the systems) has some game effects, but ultimately it's secondary or even tertiary to the primary goal of finding and eliminating the base.
 
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rstites25 wrote:
Hmmm...I guess I don't really consider that modeling the population. Military control, in the sense you're using it, to me represents a faction's control over the geographic region in the COIN series. This is why it's based on the faction's numbers as compared to other faction's numbers. The population doesn't enter into the control question.

But really that's neither here nor there.

You might be able to draw some parallels between the two--if you treat something general enough, you always can. The COIN series games generally take a population-centric view of counterinsurgency. That's why the support/opposition are generally victory conditions. SW: R is fundamentally different. If you had to categorize its take on counterinsurgency (a dubious task, I know) it would be enemy-centric. The entire game comes down to the Empire's ability to find and destroy the rebel base. Population (loyalty of the systems) has some game effects, but ultimately it's secondary or even tertiary to the primary goal of finding and eliminating the base.
Subjugation does, in my opinion, represent the military control over a planet. And loyalty does effect gsme play from production to information on the rebel base.

I agree that if you make things generic enough it's easy to see parallels. But in this aspect, I don't think it takes much generalization.
 
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ChromiumAgeCollector wrote:


Subjugation does, in my opinion, represent the military control over a planet. And loyalty does effect gsme play from production to information on the rebel base.
Yes, control over the planet-i.e., a geographical region or territory. Much like any traditional wargame where control of various key pieces of real estate is key. That's not a population model per se.
 
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Jacob Williams
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Maybe my wording was poor, but I meant that with military control over the geography also keant the Empire could enslave the population to build military assets for them.
 
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Re: Star Wars COIN, you could do Corellia during the Empire. The map would be various provinces/cities of Corellia plus maybe some surrounding space. The COIN faction would be the Empire, including the Diktat (Corellian puppet government). The three insurgent factions would be the Rebellion, the Smugglers, and Garm Bel Iblis' movement (going to need a catchier name. "Sons of Corellia?").

The Empire wants Support and maybe a Rebel body count if we want to take a page from LoD. They're interested in not only subjugating any Corellian feelings of independence but also retaining the famed Corellian shipyards. Maybe factor in Imperial control of N cities/shipyards to reflect?
The Rebel Alliance wants Opposition. They're not interested in Corellia specifically but rather Corellia's support for the Rebels at large, and reducing Imperial gains from holding Corellia. Maybe factor in Non-Imperial control of cities/shipyards to reflect?
Garm Bel Iblis wants control of Corellian territory and maybe Imperial body count. Bel Iblis's movement is very Corellia-centric. If the Empire falls in the rest of the galaxy, fine, or not, whatever, as long as Corellia is free.
Smugglers don't care who's in charge as long as the spice flows. They want money (and bases? "Smuggler's Dens?").

But the Star Wars Expanded Universe is now un-canon, so I guess the above is moot. I thought it was fun anyway so I figured I'd share it with you guys.

Garm Bel Iblis: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Garm_Bel_Iblis
Garm Bel Iblis' unnamed movement: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Garm_Bel_Iblis%27s_movement
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I've also always thought a micro (in geographical size) COIN would be cool. Babylon 5, anyone?
 
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wamba_the_fool wrote:
I've also always thought a micro (in geographical size) COIN would be cool. Babylon 5, anyone?
With days like today at work I nominate my office, two floors in a small office building should be geographically small enough.

Five factions, though, instead of four: Dev, Ops, QA, Product, and S&M. Roughly, Engineering (insurgents) vs Product and S&M (COIN).
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Mart van de Wege
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Call me provincial, but the COIN model, especially in its pre-Modern version, almost perfectly fits the Eighty Years' War, aka the Dutch Rebellion against Spain.

You have the requisite number of factions:

1. The Spanish Crown, represented by either the Spanish Habsburgs in Brussels (conciliatory towards the rebellion) or the Crown's representative (brutal subjugation tactics), which also immediately gives you a theme for the Leader piece.

2. The Orangists: William of Orange and his descendants, who might just settle for a modus vivendi inside the Spanish Kingdom as long as they maintain some of their privileges and use convential military power (mercenaries) and diplomacy; again, the abilities of the generations translate nicely into Leader pieces

3. The States government of the Dutch Republic, which wants no less than complete independence, which sets up conflict with its main ally the Orangists.

4. The English, who want to turn the Netherlands into a client state,
but without risking too much military resources against Spain.

All four of the factions have both common and contradictory goals, and with all the events in eighty years worth of war and diplomacy, plenty of scope for events.

In case you want to go the Falling Sky route, you could even add a fifth faction in the form of forces from the Thirty Years' War in the neighbouring Germanies crossing over into Dutch territory.
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Great idea Mart,

I always thought it would be the
Hapsburgs objective support
Nobility (Adel) objective patronage
Calvinists objective opposition
Merchants/Burgers objective cash and bases (merchant centres)

The staaten generaal could be an abstract concept (or be ignored perhaps)
I don't think that independence was an objective at the outset. The nobility just objected to Philips political restructuring at their cost. (Just like the Spanish nobility rebelled when Philips father Charles arrived in Spain and put Burgundian noblemen in key positions in Spain 50 years earlier)

Deliberately pinched from Revolution the dutch revolt.

Instead of political support, support could mean religious support.

You could roll over the governors in the propaganda cards, Alva, Requesens, Parma, the archdukes etc. It would be a bit of a stretch to do the whole war in one deck. You'd have one card per year. You could do the opening years.

Anyway I'd love to see this game. It is period that has been underdone gameswise.
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Gus I
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MrMT wrote:
Iraq is the obvious big one.
I have often wondered why this didn't make it.
 
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Oerjan Ariander
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GuusI wrote:
MrMT wrote:
Iraq is the obvious big one.
I have often wondered why this didn't make it.
How can it "make it" when it hasn't even been done yet?

/Oerjan
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