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Subject: "Missing" ODE terrain overlays rss

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wolf90 (Drew)
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Poll: "Missing" ODE terrain overlays
I was playing around with my ODE set recently during some scenario creation, and I realized that there were some overlays I wanted to use that didn't exist within the set. Yes, given the absolute abundance of overlay goodness, this was shocking to me too! This got me thinking about what was "missing" that I might use...

So I bring this to you all - what "missing" overlays would you want to see down the road? Note that this is not a promise to get these to you; this is market research, nothing more. I am not promising that this will ever see the light of day. But I am curious as to what others may have found lacking in the set. For the sake of this poll, I'm keeping everything as a single hex overlay. Also note the road branch and road intersection overlays in Town terrain exist in ODE, as does the rail branch in Clear terrain, and thus why they are not included in this poll.

D.

(Full disclosure: the Clear with road branch exists in my Barbarians at the Gate set even though it is not in ODE)

D.
What "missing" single-hex overlays would you be most interested in seeing? (The text in parentheses describes the front and back)
  Absolutely vital Needed Nice to have Eh I don't use overlays
Water
Beach
Clear w/road branch (right,left)
Woods w/road branch (right,left)
Clear w/road intersection (X,Y)
Woods w/road intersection (X,Y)
Town w/rail branch (right,left)
Woods w/rail branch (right,left)
Town w/rail intersection (X,Y)
Clear w/rail intersection (X,Y)
Woods w/rail intersection (X,Y)
      44 answers
Poll created by wolf90
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Karl Gallagher
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To explain my vote--the terrain with road/rail branches don't matter that much to me because we have the skinny road/rail overlays that can go on any terrain. So I'd just use those to make whatever road pattern I needed.
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Stephan Beal
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4stephen wrote:
soblue

Until such time as to when the GEV type boards are released for us Ogre 6th Edition owners discussion about the above terrain overlays are not that useful.

I have to assume that the Ogre 6th Edition owners are the key to future business growth for this game as ODE was a limited one time run. Give us more products to buy!


Very good points, but answering the poll effectively requires some experience with the overlays, which implies experience with the ODE. So... kind of a chicken/egg scenario.
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Keith Lewis
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I feel everyone misses another extremely needed terrain, MOUNTAINS and PLATEAUS. Maybe add it to your survey. Then we get into Ogres falling off mountain sides and such
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Hunter Shelburne
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4stephen wrote:
soblue

Until such time as to when the GEV type boards are released for us Ogre 6th Edition owners discussion about the above terrain overlays are not that useful.

I have to assume that the Ogre 6th Edition owners are the key to future business growth for this game as ODE was a limited one time run. Give us more products to buy!


We've definitely got more on the way for owners of Sixth Edition! This isn't to indicate we are trying to cater to ODE owners any more than our Ogre Sixth Edition owners, Drew is just looking for some more information to expand the game for everyone.
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Stephan Beal
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Misplaced Buckeye wrote:
I feel everyone misses another extremely needed terrain, MOUNTAINS and PLATEAUS. Maybe add it to your survey. Then we get into Ogres falling off mountain sides and such


FWIW, i don't miss either of those . But i also don't like the addition of beaches - i'm kind of old fashioned when it comes to my Ogre stuff.
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David Crowell
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4stephen wrote:
:soblue:

Until such time as to when the GEV type boards are released for us Ogre 6th Edition owners discussion about the above terrain overlays are not that useful.


The GEV/Shockwave maps in 6e scale are available from WH23 here: http://www.warehouse23.com/products/ogre-giant-battlefield-s...

The set is maps G1, G2, S1, S2. It is just the maps, no terrain overlays.
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Stephan Beal
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davethelost wrote:
The GEV/Shockwave maps in 6e scale are available from WH23 here: http://www.warehouse23.com/products/ogre-giant-battlefield-s...

The set is maps G1, G2, S1, S2. It is just the maps, no terrain overlays.


Sidebar: the USPS shipping rates from w23 effectively block access to those maps for anyone outside the US.

According to the ODE campaign:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/ogre-designer...

that covers the vast majority of backers, but... still... there are those of us outside the US :/.

Certain products, e.g. the new 6E box, are available via regional Amazon outlets without the USPS shipping cost overhead, but the "specialized" products, like the ODE/6E map and counter sets, are only available via w23.
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4stephen wrote:
Until such time as to when the GEV type boards are released for us Ogre 6th Edition owners discussion about the above terrain overlays are not that useful.


Technically, you can buy a copy of GEV Deluxe and use the ODE overlays on the paper map. Just sayin'...
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wolf90 wrote:
So I bring this to you all - what "missing" overlays would you want to see down the road?


NONE.

I have zero interest in additional or new terrain overlays. I have the ODE GEV & Shockwave boards, which provide more than adequate variety for me. It's not like SJG is starting with a blank map that needs terrain to be added. The GEV and SW maps already have terrain on them. Splitting the maps increased the options even further, adding GS and SG to the GG and SS options we previously had.

While I understand the attraction of overlays, more than a sheet in GEV would be a mistake, as the objective should be to upsell to a full terrain pack and/or Shockwave.

But really, the effort should be to move Ogre into the modern age as a miniatures game for 7E.
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Tim Gordon
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NB: Declaration of interest: creator/backer of Ogre: Strategic & Tactical Objectives Sponsored Counter Sheet - lots of additional terrain overlay options

I recall a few years back that there was a consensus that more Water hexes could have been useful in ODE? On that memory, I voted for Water hexes, and then it made sense to add Beach hexes too.

This is about Terrain Overlays, so I will end my comment there, as anything else I would like to see should go on another thread.
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wolf90 (Drew)
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SJ Hunter wrote:
4stephen wrote:
Until such time as to when the GEV type boards are released for us Ogre 6th Edition owners discussion about the above terrain overlays are not that useful.

I have to assume that the Ogre 6th Edition owners are the key to future business growth for this game as ODE was a limited one time run. Give us more products to buy!


We've definitely got more on the way for owners of Sixth Edition! This isn't to indicate we are trying to cater to ODE owners any more than our Ogre Sixth Edition owners, Drew is just looking for some more information to expand the game for everyone.


ODE definitely was a one-time event. That said, I hope to see Ogre Sixth Edition grow to be a robust, on-going product line for SJGs. How best to accomplish this? People exactly like you are the key.

We need new players. Those that backed ODE are generally our core Ogre players; we love them and they support us/we support them. But we need new blood for the line to grow. The best way we can track the growth of the line is through sales of Ogre Sixth Edition. If every owner of ODE and Sixth Edition to date played their game with enough new players that it resulted in one additional sale of Ogre Sixth Edition per current owner, THAT would tell us that the line is attracting new players. New players means new growth.

Many of you have told me that Ogre really promotes itself and the key to attracting new players is getting them to play the game. So I challenge each and every one of you - invite someone to play the game with you. We all win in that scenario!

But fear not! As Hunter said, we do have some new products in the pipeline that all can enjoy!

D.
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wolf90 wrote:
The best way we can track the growth of the line is through sales of Ogre Sixth Edition. If every owner of ODE and Sixth Edition to date played their game with enough new players that it resulted in one additional sale of Ogre Sixth Edition per current owner, THAT would tell us that the line is attracting new players.


Now hold on there!

ODE is not a game that you can take to play with a new player. ODE is so large, heavy (28 lbs!), and bulky that one cannot reasonably transport it to take elsewhere for gaming. The 3-D Ogres and the PVC storage only exacerbate the problem. ODE is something of a monument to Steve that just sits in the basement or game room.

Had ODE been packaged as a set of smaller, stackable 6E-sized boxes, then one could take the Ogre (or GEV!) core game out to share with others.

The fact that 6E sells at all is testament to how good of a game Ogre is.

But even then, 6E isn't the end game, because it's still very dated. Ogre needs to be a miniatures game. I wouldn't want to demo 6E when we all know the "good" version using the pending plastic miniatures set(s) would be far more compelling to demo and play.
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I've seen 6E and it's definitely not ODE. The counter sheets are very different, which is a good thing, as the 6E counter mix is far superior. 6E doesn't saddle the PE with 4 HWZ per sheet, for example. Considering the sheer number of HWZ in ODE (16!, IIRC), a PE Maginot scenario would make sense, where HWZ only cost 1 AU.
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Stephan Beal
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wolf90 wrote:
We need new players. Those that backed ODE are generally our core Ogre players; we love them and they support us/we support them. But we need new blood for the line to grow.


Sidebar: as a long-time Ogre fan (started in 1988, IIRC) and ODE backer, i am absolutely tickled pink at the momentum in the product line since the ODE ended. i honestly expected Ogre to lie dormant after the ODE campaign, sliding silently in the the annals of gaming history (having gone out with a bang). Even though i have far, far, FAR more Ogre than i can ever possibly play (including 3 ODE sets and a 6E kit), i will continue to throw my money at any new Ogre products. In that regard, i kind of count as a "new player" in terms of SJG revenue stream.


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Stephan Beal
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Looking over my Ogre photo album, it occurred to me that this poll is missing SWAMP overlays. i've used lots of those in custom scenarios to set up areas which Ogres can't easily reach.
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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GrauGeist wrote:
wolf90 wrote:
The best way we can track the growth of the line is through sales of Ogre Sixth Edition. If every owner of ODE and Sixth Edition to date played their game with enough new players that it resulted in one additional sale of Ogre Sixth Edition per current owner, THAT would tell us that the line is attracting new players.

Now hold on there!

ODE is not a game that you can take to play with a new player. ODE is so large, heavy (28 lbs!), and bulky that one cannot reasonably transport it to take elsewhere for gaming. The 3-D Ogres and the PVC storage only exacerbate the problem. ODE is something of a monument to Steve that just sits in the basement or game room.

Had ODE been packaged as a set of smaller, stackable 6E-sized boxes, then one could take the Ogre (or GEV!) core game out to share with others.

The fact that 6E sells at all is testament to how good of a game Ogre is.

I agree with you completely so far... (which is why I did this.)

GrauGeist wrote:
But even then, 6E isn't the end game, because it's still very dated. Ogre needs to be a miniatures game. I wouldn't want to demo 6E when we all know the "good" version using the pending plastic miniatures set(s) would be far more compelling to demo and play.

Here you've lost me. I don't care about miniatures; to me, the "good" version is classic black & white counters on Denis Loubet's maps. Miniatures are a step backward in playability.



(Hi, Stephan!! I almost said something when you mentioned chicken/egg scenarios above, because I still think of chickens every time I add a new file to a revision control system.)
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Stephan Beal
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kuhrusty wrote:
(Hi, Stephan!! I almost said something when you mentioned chicken/egg scenarios above, because I still think of chickens every time I add a new file to a revision control system.)


OMG! RUSTY!!! And i still use "egg" as the initial checkin comment on new repositories! (And i was just wondering about Scott Burrito (a.k.a. Hellhammer) a couple days ago!)
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sgbeal wrote:
And i was just wondering about Scott Burrito (a.k.a. Hellhammer) a couple days ago!

Hellhammer's original name was Scott? No wonder she uses a pseudonym.
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Stephan Beal
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wmshub wrote:
sgbeal wrote:
And i was just wondering about Scott Burrito (a.k.a. Hellhammer) a couple days ago!

Hellhammer's original name was Scott? No wonder she uses a pseudonym.


As i recall it (but this is from memory some 15-odd years ago) Rusty wanted to name their son Scott Hellhammer Ballinger, but his wife fought him on that and they settled on Scott Burrito Ballinger. The name Burrito came from (as i recall it) when a nurse handed the newborn to his parents, wrapped in his tiny blanket, looking like a Burrito.
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kuhrusty wrote:
GrauGeist wrote:
ODE is not a game that you can take to play with a new player. ODE is so large, heavy (28 lbs!), and bulky that one cannot reasonably transport it to take elsewhere for gaming.

I agree with you completely so far... (which is why I did this.)

GrauGeist wrote:
But even then, 6E isn't the end game, because it's still very dated. Ogre needs to be a miniatures game. I wouldn't want to demo 6E when we all know the "good" version using the pending plastic miniatures set(s) would be far more compelling to demo and play.

Here you've lost me. I don't care about miniatures; to me, the "good" version is classic black & white counters on Denis Loubet's maps. Miniatures are a step backward in playability.


OK, carving the box down is a fix.

While miniatures may not be for you, they're the only way that Ogre is going to sell to a larger market that expects miniatures, before Richard Borg gets around to a Command and Colors "giant robot" game.

Steve hasn't demo'd Ogre with 1/2" B&W counters in the decade-plus since Ogre Deluxe came out with the miniatures and big map. Every con picture had him playing Ogre Miniatures on the Ogre Deluxe map. Now that he's finally got Ogre Miniatures Set 1 in the works, I doubt that we'll ever see SJG demo counters again.

As for playability, the least playable things SJG has produced are the 2.5D Ogres from ODE, on top of ODE being non-transportable as-is.
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Patrik Pettersson
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Maybe just an road/rail crossing Y/X for the road/rail sections. And perhaps some loose road/rail straights like the ones in ODE for SE as well. Could be something like the streams that were just released, or added in some of the new forthcoming products.
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Karl Gallagher
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GrauGeist wrote:
ODE is not a game that you can take to play with a new player. ODE is so large, heavy (28 lbs!), and bulky that one cannot reasonably transport it to take elsewhere for gaming.


Well, no. But you don't need the whole thing to play. I have a tote bag with the rules, Ogre board, G1 board, a few ziplocks of counters, and a tupperware container with some Ogres and CPs. Lighter than many of my other games and with easy carrying handles.

Set that up on a table at a con and you will draw in some guys half your age to play.
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Robert Sweeney
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I agree that detrimental terrain (mountains, hills, cliffs, swamp, pits) for Ogres is needed. Were I a defender, I wouldn't choose to face one in the open....
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wolf90 (Drew)
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selenite wrote:
GrauGeist wrote:
ODE is not a game that you can take to play with a new player. ODE is so large, heavy (28 lbs!), and bulky that one cannot reasonably transport it to take elsewhere for gaming.


Well, no. But you don't need the whole thing to play. I have a tote bag with the rules, Ogre board, G1 board, a few ziplocks of counters, and a tupperware container with some Ogres and CPs. Lighter than many of my other games and with easy carrying handles.

Set that up on a table at a con and you will draw in some guys half your age to play.


THIS is exactly what we'd like to see. There is no need to bring the whole ODE set (unless you're going for shock and awe!); a small subset is all that's needed to attract gamers. Plus those of you with Ogre Sixth Edition have a very portable version that shares all of the majesty of ODE.

D.
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