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Subject: Another look at BGG-Zilla rss

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wolf90 (Drew)
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Greetings everyone!

I've been pondering the BGG sheets and some possible scenarios featuring some of the counters and overlays. I find myself constantly looking at the BGG-Zilla but fear we lack any sort of consistent rules for the beast. So let's try to get some degree of consensus.

To begin, I'd like to draw everyone's attention to a few prior threads addressing this concept. We have Darin Sunley's (HeatDeath) description here: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/16293039#16293039
as well as Richard Smith's (Rick Smith) take on some rules here: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1124463/suggested-rules-bgg....
I think there are some great ideas here!

So what does everyone think? Any other ideas that should be addressed in a possible ruleset for the creature?

D.

Edit: Another thread discussing this: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1086277/bgg-zilla-anyone-ma...

And Henry Cobb's thread examining this beast: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=129120

D.
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Keith Lewis
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Drew I believe you forgot Henry Cobbs fairly large variant on BGG zilla. I have used this extensively in my campaign games especially with Ogre thulhu
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David Valenze
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Any chance for a look at the Pyramid articles for Godzilla and other kaiju?

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Andrew Walters
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The big problem, in my mind, is that Ogre is "hard sci fi" and Kaiju are something else. Giant monsters are essentially melee fighters, with the occasional flame breath effective to a few hundred meters. Even Ogre infantry can out-range kaiju, and since even infantry are faster they can choose the range. So if there's going to be contest the rules will need to depart from the reasonable definitively. That really means re-conceiving the game, not just slapping some stats on the creature.

The attempts that have been made so far are pretty neat, but they didn't really convince me. Hopefully someone will come up with something cool someday.
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If the Kaiju is undetectable more than 2 hexes away, and attacks static city hexes, then range isn't as much of an issue. Especially if the city isn't expecting an attack, and has to call in any armor from off-board.
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Andrew Walters
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Hard to imagine kaiju are undetectable. More fun is untargetable.

You could also say that when Kaiju are in city hexes collateral damage prevents normal combat - only overrun combat is permissible. But I have a hard time thinking GEVs couldn't get some shots in while avoiding the stomping feet. Kailua would probably have all the advantages infantry have, though.
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wolf90 (Drew)
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Misplaced Buckeye wrote:
Drew I believe you forgot Henry Cobbs fairly large variant on BGG zilla. I have used this extensively in my campaign games especially with Ogre thulhu


I was not aware that Henry had done so! Did he post it anywhere? (I can ask him, but if it's already out there...) I will link it in my original post if it's available.

D.

Edit: Found it. See first post.

D.
 
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wolf90 (Drew)
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I have uploaded a file with the relevant stats from the article in Pyramid Classic #1. Please feel free to consider this as an option as well!

D.

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/147580/bgg-zilla-rule...
 
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wolf90 (Drew)
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Now that we have some rules collected for this creature, how about someone taking a stab or two at some scenarios? Some should be fairly straight-forward:

- Kill the CP, but with the creature replacing the Ogre. What is the right balance of units?
- Monster Hunt: Conventional units try to kill it on a GEV map.
- Three's A Crowd: It shows up as an unwanted third party in a traditional scenario. Only one side can win, but the warring parties need to join forces against the creature.
- Mano a mano: Ogre vs Creature straight up. Which Ogre is balanced against it?

And I'm sure there are plenty of other seeds that can grow in the fertile minds around here!

D.
 
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Kill the CP is doable, but Kaiju are even more susceptible to being kited by MSL & GEV than an Ogre.

Monster Hunt is the same, but at least the Kaiju can benefit from cover. More importantly, the Kaiju wins if it can destroy X City hexes - that's what changes the equation.

Three-way battle is fine, but I think the Kaiju is easily avoided and ignored, due to its low threat radius.

Ogre v Creature, is always on an Ogre with MRs.
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wolf90 (Drew)
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The ruleset has been updated to include a record sheet for the creature: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/147813/bgg-zilla-rule...

D.
 
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Stephan Beal
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wolf90 wrote:
Now that we have some rules collected for this creature, how about someone taking a stab or two at some scenarios? Some should be fairly straight-forward:


This would be much more straightforward if we had access to the original scenarios without having to pay for them. i incidentally do have a copy of them, as they used to be posted openly on the SJG web site and i downloaded the page way back then (my local copy is dated December 20, 1998), but i can't legally distribute that copy.

Locking the original article behind a $5 paywall, and then asking the community to post submissions when said submissions would be much simpler to create with access to the original scenario(s) from that article (e.g. the base scenario provides an armor unit range for the opposing army, whereas the current BGG-zilla file provides only the monster's raw stats, leaving us to guess at its armor value), is just... truly, i can only facepalm.
 
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I downloaded the proposed rules and found them overcomplicated, having to track energy *and* wounds. I would simplify the monster dramatically:

60 wounds [M4]
Move as Ogre or Infantry - monster's choice!
Defend as Infantry - S/3 in city, S/2 woods/swamp!

When attacked:
- X results wound equal to S(effective);
- D results have no effect;
- N/A results regenerate 1 wound...

Attacks [3 AP/turn]
3 AP: Atomic Breath - 9/4 attack;
2 AP: Atomic Burp - 6/3 attack;
1 AP: Atomic Burp - 3/2 attack;
1 AP: Rampage - 6/1 attack.
Attacks spillover as usual, per GEV.

Basically, this version is exceedingly hard to kill, and keeps picking away turn after turn.
 
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Stephan Beal
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GrauGeist wrote:
2 AP: Atomic Burp - 6/3 attack;
1 AP: Atomic Burp - 3/2 attack;


To avoid the duplication, how about...

GrauGeist wrote:
2 AP: Atomic Burp - 6/3 attack;
1 AP: Atomic Hiccup - 3/2 attack;
 
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That's better! Thanks!
 
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wolf90 (Drew)
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None of these rules are "official". People are free to use whatever version they wish in creating a scenario - they should simply acknowledge which set they are using in the intro for clarities sake.

sgbeal wrote:
...when said submissions would be much simpler to create with access to the original scenario(s) from that article (e.g. the base scenario provides an armor unit range for the opposing army, whereas the current BGG-zilla file provides only the monster's raw stats, leaving us to guess at its armor value)


For a variety reasons we cannot post that article for free any longer. Which is why I distilled the rules for everyone to see. Additionally, there are mainly only scenario seeds (of which I have summarized in an earlier post), fiction and some gameplay tips left. And the range you're referring to I've found deliberately poor, so I'm consciously avoiding posting it. The point here was to spur some creative opportunity by fans on the forums, not for me to say "Here is how it should be". There is no "right" answer; just people's interpretation and creativity, should they so desire to do so.

D.
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Keith Lewis
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I have an issue with the power of the Kaiju as compared to the size of Ogre hexes.
As we all have been told, the Ogre hex is approximately 1.5 km across.
I can't see a Range weapon hitting anything except in the next hex.
As for a physical attack the Kaiju should actually be in the same hex.

I would suggest the following:
Breath weapon: 2d6/range 1. If the Kaiju wants to use full strength then it must rest one round otherwise 1 d6 damage.
Physical attacks: must be in the same hex. 3 attacks 2 arms and one tail. Each hits for 1 d6.

OR

STOMP: Anything under a SHVY is destroyed. a SHVY is disabled on a 1-3, 4+ destroyed. No affect on an Ogre.

OR

JUMP STOMP: Kaiju must move no more than 1 hex before entering the attack hex. Anything below an Oogre is auto destroyed. For an attack on an Ogre first roll 1 d6. Result is how many dice of damage are rolled.
Damage is distributed as follows: Larger weapons are easier to damage for Kaiju so External Missles, then MB followed by SB followed by treads. AP too small to be considered in damage results.

BODY POINTS: 42 points. Movement 3 hexes
 
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Cat O\'Mighty
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Since I game with miniatures, the nominal scale of the hexes is of very minor concern to me compared to the overall look and feel of the game. I will be using kaiju models in my games, but not the tiny 1" tall ones that would look like they couldn't do a ranged attack beyond their own hex.

Having gone through my [rather extensive] kaiju collection, the ones that look best suited for pairing up against Ogres are the 2.5" Hyper Real series. At that size figure, a ranged attack is completely appropriate. Normally, I game with 4" tall kaiju vs. 1/285 squishies, but dropping their size to be more comparable to the Ogres works for this.

I might also have some 2" tall ones which I could consider if I go on an archaeological expedition into my office to find them. [Edit: hmm, no, those would look too small next to the conventional forces.]

If you really have to rationalise your kaiju abilities, consider that Godzilla gets taller and taller in each rebooting just to stay visually current with the height of contemporary Tokyo buildings. When Godzilla gets tall enough to look like a well paired match with an Ogre, the breath range will of course increase as well.

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Cat O\'Mighty
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Kaiju size is all about relative scale to the gaming table. Given the smaller size of buildings I'll be using for Ogre, and all the vehicles, 2.5" kaiju work best. Even 12" or 6" tall ones work well with 1/285 squishies for a close-quarters game. The 4" tall ones work best on my model of the Greater Boston Area which I used for a number of years at Anime Boston.



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Brian McCue
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1) Can you please define "kaiju"?
2) Born in Boston and bred nearby, I give you +1 for the Citgo sign (which I can remember when it was still City Service!)
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Cat O\'Mighty
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brianmccue wrote:
1) Can you please define "kaiju"?
2) Born in Boston and bred nearby, I give you +1 for the Citgo sign (which I can remember when it was still City Service!)


Kaiju is the Japanese name for the entire giant monster genre and for the monsters themselves. Sort of the genera, or perhaps family, level of classification. So Godzilla is a kaiju; as are Mothra, Rodan, Gamera, etc.

That Citgo shot is the view looking out over the big green monster from Fenway Park at the Big Green Monster!
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Keith Lewis
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I never said a ranged attack wasn't appropriate. But shooting a fireball 3 miles seems the maximum which would be one hex (including the one he is standing in). This is not an atomic bomb of even a tactical size and the ability to sustain the same strength over distance is different that shooting a projectile. Consider his breath weapon a giant flame thrower, the range of a standard one which is only 15 meters (look it up). BGGZ's power is in his tail, claws and legs he has to be close to use them and he's not going to grow a mile and a half high. Nature hates things like that.
If you want to give him "super powers" feel free for your campaigns, no problem. It's not rationlizing. I'm proposing a real life specification if a Kaiju actually existed.

 
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David Damerell
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Misplaced Buckeye wrote:
If you want to give him "super powers" feel free for your campaigns, no problem. It's not rationlizing. I'm proposing a real life specification if a Kaiju actually existed.


Of course Godzilla canonically has super powers, every bit as much as any other radiation-created superhero/villain. This is an elemental force of nature, not just a big lizard.

A "real life specification" falls at the first hurdle; the square-cube law makes it impossible to have a beastie that size and shape. So that is a completely futile endeavour.
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Exactly. Presume a 100' monster exists, and you can have it breathe as far as you like
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Keith Lewis
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To Damerell: Square Cube doesn't apply. You already stated that radiation has mutated the best. The resulting "bones" could be anything, no one has carved one up.

To GrauGeist: I agree he is 100' tall NOT a skyscraper a Cat mentioned. I prefer to play Ogre as science fiction not science fantasy.

You are all free to tweak it any way you want. Nuff said.
 
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