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Subject: Starweb rss

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Richard Moxham
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luigi87 wrote:
mocko wrote:
So here's my question: are you able to say what the game would have ended up looking like if you'd decided to implement the Catchup system instead?
I hesitate to mention this again, but I think the answer to your question is Side Stitch.
Yes, I get that, Luis, but my point (for it was really a point just pretending to be a question) was that Starweb would probably have ended up looking exactly like Starweb - in other words that an overwhelming majority of games would deliver an identical outcome under both dispensations, and that in practice (and I doubly emphasise those words) the much-discussed 'triangular counting' approach offers very little in the way of innovation.

 
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christian freeling
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mocko wrote:
luigi87 wrote:
mocko wrote:
So here's my question: are you able to say what the game would have ended up looking like if you'd decided to implement the Catchup system instead?
I hesitate to mention this again, but I think the answer to your question is Side Stitch.
Yes, I get that, Luis, but my point (for it was really a point just pretending to be a question) was that Starweb would probably have ended up looking exactly like Starweb - in other words that an overwhelming majority of games would deliver an identical outcome under both dispensations, and that in practice (and I doubly emphasise those words) the much-discussed 'triangular counting' approach offers very little in the way of innovation.

If your point is that I made claims to the contrary then I don't hesitate to mention again that I made that very point in the second post of the original thread. Triangular counting is a generic tool. Who would claim otherwise?
 
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Richard Moxham
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christianF wrote:
mocko wrote:
luigi87 wrote:
mocko wrote:
So here's my question: are you able to say what the game would have ended up looking like if you'd decided to implement the Catchup system instead?
I hesitate to mention this again, but I think the answer to your question is Side Stitch.
Yes, I get that, Luis, but my point (for it was really a point just pretending to be a question) was that Starweb would probably have ended up looking exactly like Starweb - in other words that an overwhelming majority of games would deliver an identical outcome under both dispensations, and that in practice (and I doubly emphasise those words) the much-discussed 'triangular counting' approach offers very little in the way of innovation.

If your point is that I made claims to the contrary then I don't hesitate to mention again that I made that very point in the second post of the original thread. Triangular counting is a generic tool. Who would claim otherwise?
No, Christian, I absolutely am not imputing any such thing to you. I'm simply saying (and am open to refutation from all and sundry) that it looks to me as if almost every actual game would end up with the same winner as if you just took the player with the bigger biggest group and then counted down in the event of ties.

What I suppose I am asking is: if I'm right about that, was the triangular way of phrasing the scoring rule justified by the number of exceptions to my claim, and also, I guess, wouldn't the Catchup approach have been more user-friendly?

And if I'm not right - well, then, I apologise for the error.

 
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christian freeling
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mocko wrote:
And if I'm not right - well, then, I apologise for the error.

Apologies accepted.
 
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Richard Moxham
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christianF wrote:
mocko wrote:
And if I'm not right - well, then, I apologise for the error.

Apologies accepted.
Although not necessarily extended (as yet)...
 
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Russ Williams
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FWIW I agree that Catchup style scoring seems more user friendly than computing the sum of the triangular numbers.

I still haven't tried Starweb (though I'm hoping to), but FWLIW my intuition suspects that Catchup style scoring would not make the gameplay work out the same in many cases. Catchup style scoring lets you completely ignore all the opponent's smaller groups, as long as you've ensured that you have the unique largest group by splitting the opponent into smaller subgroups, whereas that's not true in Starweb style scoring.

E.g. a single 7-group wins Catchup style vs a 6-group + 5-group, but the single 7-group loses Starweb style.
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Nick Bentley
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I'm not understanding this at all. In Starweb you care about the corners. In Catchup you don't. Starweb is outside-in. If Catchup had Starweb's turn rules, it would be 100% inside-out (and utterly broken). You don't need to occupy a single corner to win in Catchup.

Have I missed something? Am I being daft? I keep looking back at Starweb's rules, wondering if I've somehow misunderstood them.


Oh wait, I think I understand. You're asking: what if you compared the two groups with the most corners, and only if tied, compared the next two groups, etc?

If so, then yeah, that's a more interesting question.
 
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Eric Brosius
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My favorite 18xx game for six players is two games of 1846 with three players each.
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milomilo122 wrote:
I'm not understanding this at all.
The comparisons are just of the scoring systems.
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Nick Bentley
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Eric Brosius wrote:
milomilo122 wrote:
I'm not understanding this at all.
The comparisons are just of the scoring systems.

I just realized that myself. derp.
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christian freeling
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Here's a short game specific reflection on the difference that Russ already explained in general terms. In the game between Tony and yours truly there is this moment:


Quote:
So here White has provisionally connected his two 2-groups, but with two 4-groups and two singles his score adds to 22. Black with a 6-group and a 2-group would get to 24, so a cut attempt was required. Because of the leftmost white stone a connection there had to be secured at the cost of a white escape to the centre, threathening to cut off the D1 corner. And that's a 5-points reduction of White's score, quite enough to tip the balance.

"Quite enough to tip the balance" ... with triangular counting. With "largest group cascading down counting" the whole cut attempt would have been useless because White can only hope to cut off one corner. That would leave a black 5-group which would still be "quite enough to win" for Black.

Now with Catchup counting White wouldn't have let the black group solidify to begin with: he would have attempted a cut sooner. So the difference inherently leads to a different strategy. I think the strategic implications of triangular scoring have a somewhat finer 'resolution' than those of Catchup scoring. And though they have similar effects, they don't have the same effects.
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Rahn
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Is there a file available to create a print and play board for this?
 
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christian freeling
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TumbleSteak wrote:
Is there a file available to create a print and play board for this?
I certainly hope there will be but unfortunately I haven't got the means to create one. If someone is better equipped to do so then I'd appreciate that very much.

With Java it is possible to play at MindSports.nl.
 
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Julien Griffon
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I submitted a pdf file with a simple B&W board to the game's page. You'll need to work out the scaling for yourself (printing on four A4 or letter size sheets will probably work).
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christian freeling
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captncavern wrote:
I submitted a pdf file with a simple B&W board to the game's page. You'll need to work out the scaling for yourself (printing on four A4 or letter size sheets will probably work).

You mean the game page at BGG? Did I overlook it there?
 
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Julien Griffon
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christianF wrote:
captncavern wrote:
I submitted a pdf file with a simple B&W board to the game's page. You'll need to work out the scaling for yourself (printing on four A4 or letter size sheets will probably work).

You mean the game page at BGG? Did I overlook it there?

It's been approved just one hour after you asked, so you can now find it here.
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christian freeling
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captncavern wrote:
It's been approved just one hour after you asked, so you can now find it here.
That's absolutely great! Thank you
 
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Rahn
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captncavern wrote:
I submitted a pdf file with a simple B&W board to the game's page. You'll need to work out the scaling for yourself (printing on four A4 or letter size sheets will probably work).

Great! Thanks. Sent you some Geek Gold for your troubles.
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christian freeling
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Stephen Tavener has included Starweb in his java based generic AI program, and it plays a pretty mean game! You will need a good strategy and clever tactics to beat it. Enjoy!

Download Stephen's AI
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