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Subject: Difference in EP between command and weapon effect rss

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Xavier GALLERI
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As far as I understand the rules of EP, I notice that there are a few differences in its usage between command range and weapon effect range.

Here they are:

1) wood hexes cost 1 EP for command and 2 EP for weapon effect (since woods somehow "reduce" weapon effect, as stated by rule 8.2.1.4)

2) Partitions cost +1 EP to cross for command and +0 EP to cross for weapon range (see last example on page 24)

3) Zones cost 0 EP for command (this is how I understand the empty space in the player aid) and 1 EP for weapon range

What do you think?

Also, I might have forget some other differences. Please, let me know your thoughts.
 
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H.M. Woggle-Bug, T.E.
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As far as I understand it, there is only one way of counting EPs. Where do you take this differences in EPs from?

1) Where does the rule state there is a difference in EPs?
2) I cannot find the example you are referring to.
3) Again, where do you take this two different EPs from?

As I understand it, EPs are relatively straightforward. Basically it is 1 EP per hex/room (why is there an EP cost for partitions listed on the play-aid? A partition always seperates two rooms, does it not? Are EP for partitions added like MPs?) or 2 for walls/fascade/apertures along the shortest route, not necessarily following exact LOS.
Also see this [geekurl=https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1806761/roof-roof-eps]thread[/geekurl].
 
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Xavier GALLERI
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Thank you for your answer. Here are my thoughts.

First, I misinterpreted the example on page 24. Indeed, it is said that "B is the target of a light weapon fire, the effect is applied up to 2 EPs beyond the partition, C and D are affected". This shows that partitions reduce weapon effect in the same way as outer walls and facades. My bad.

Second, I still notice that woods reduce weapon effect "as if" they have a cost of 2 EPs in that case, while still costing 1 EP otherwise.

Third, I notice that, in the player aid, zones don't have EP cost, while they have a 1 EP cost otherwise (cf. same example as above where B is targeted, and C/D affected, which implies a 1 EP cost in that case). Maybe it's a misprint. But, otherwise, it is an exception.

As for your questions concerning partitions, my understanding is that they have a +1 PM/EP cost for crossing, in the same way as outer walls and facades. This is just another way to state the same rule and I read on Strategikon that the French co-designer somehow apologizes for not using consistent wording for the same rule.

Thanks again.
 
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H.M. Woggle-Bug, T.E.
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gzavatwar wrote:
Thank you for your answer. Here are my thoughts.

First, I misinterpreted the example on page 24. Indeed, it is said that "B is the target of a light weapon fire, the effect is applied up to 2 EPs beyond the partition, C and D are affected". This shows that partitions reduce weapon effect in the same way as outer walls and facades. My bad.

Second, I still notice that woods reduce weapon effect "as if" they have a cost of 2 EPs in that case, while still costing 1 EP otherwise.

Please specify, where do you find the EP difference for woods?

gzavatwar wrote:
Third, I notice that, in the player aid, zones don't have EP cost, while they have a 1 EP cost otherwise (cf. same example as above where B is targeted, and C/D affected, which implies a 1 EP cost in that case). Maybe it's a misprint. But, otherwise, it is an exception.

How is this supposed to imply 1 EP?

gzavatwar wrote:

As for your questions concerning partitions, my understanding is that they have a +1 PM/EP cost for crossing, in the same way as outer walls and facades. This is just another way to state the same rule and I read on Strategikon that the French co-designer somehow apologizes for not using consistent wording for the same rule.

Thanks again.

Outer walls/fascades do not have an +1 MP/EP in adition to the basic MP/EP.


 
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Joris
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The second example on page 24, bottom right, suggest 1 EP per zone.
 


I don't understand why they left EP's for zones blank. Either list it as 0 or 1...

In the second example, if zones are 0 EP, J and C must be affected by the blast. And also the unmarked zone in the C/D room be be affected.
In any case the unmarked zone in the C/D room must be affected, because it's in the fire lane, right?
 
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Xavier GALLERI
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livio wrote:
Please specify, where do you find the EP difference for woods?

Rule 8.2.1.4 says that "The weapons effect may be lowered because of the presence of walls obstacles (outer walls and buildings) and woods". The way I interpret this is that, in fire lane, after a wood hex, the effect stops after 2 EPs. But, also, in case of a blast, if the target is beside a wood hex, no hex beyond that wood would be affected. Thus, it's the same as saying that the wood hex costs 2 EPs for the blast effect.

YosT wrote:
In the second example, if zones are 0 EP, J and C must be affected by the blast. And also the unmarked zone in the C/D room be be affected.

Thanks, Joris, for your explanation . I have the same understanding of the examples as you. All this clearly suggest that zones cost 1 EP for weapon effect.

YosT wrote:
In any case the unmarked zone in the C/D room must be affected, because it's in the fire lane, right?

No, since rule 8.2.1.4 says that "In the fire lane: The weapons effect applies up to 2 EPs beyond the obstacle." and the unmarked zone in C/D room is at 3 EPs beyond the partition.

livio wrote:
Outer walls/fascades do not have an +1 MP/EP in adition to the basic MP/EP.

It's the way I interpret the cost of 2 EP to cross a wall and reach the hex behind. I mean, I prefer to say that crossing a wall costs +1 EP and the hex beyond costs 1 EP, than to say the it's a cost of 2 EP. Question of point of view.
 
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If B is the target of a heavy weapon per the example of page 24 why the hex 0216 left of F isn't affected?
 
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Joris
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gzavatwar wrote:

No, since rule 8.2.1.4 says that "In the fire lane: The weapons effect applies up to 2 EPs beyond the obstacle." and the unmarked zone in C/D room is at 3 EPs beyond the partition.

But a partition is not a obstacle, is it? Only walls, outer walls, (buildings?) and woods are listed as obstacles.

Friedrich wrote:
If B is the target of a heavy weapon per the example of page 24 why the hex 0216 left of F isn't affected?

I would think all hexes adjacent to B are affected.
Unless you interpret Rule 8.2.1.4 to mean that the wall absorbs the blast and none of the hexes adjacent to B are affected, except maybe the ones adjacent to the aperture... Why have a rule for obstacles if they are treated just the same as normal hexes...

Another question, can you remote breach E from position F? I think not, but it is 2 EPs distance.
 
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Xavier GALLERI
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Friedrich wrote:
If B is the target of a heavy weapon per the example of page 24 why the hex 0216 left of F isn't affected?

Yes. I think that this hex is affected too. My guess is that F is just shown as an example among others.
 
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Xavier GALLERI
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YosT wrote:
gzavatwar wrote:

No, since rule 8.2.1.4 says that "In the fire lane: The weapons effect applies up to 2 EPs beyond the obstacle." and the unmarked zone in C/D room is at 3 EPs beyond the partition.

But a partition is not a obstacle, is it? Only walls, outer walls, (buildings?) and woods are listed as obstacles.

Yes. I think partitions are obstacles in the same way as walls. And I understand this precisely because of the provided examples.

YosT wrote:
Another question, can you remote breach E from position F? I think not, but it is 2 EPs distance.

I agree it's no. Because the firing block is not in the fire arc of the Breach symbol.

Now, I must say that I'm wondering about the "2 EPs away" rule for remote breaching. Actually, when outside and adjacent to the Breach, a block is actually at 2 EPs from E. Still, I don't think this could be understood as being in a "remote" location. If I'm right, either the rule should state "more than 2 EPs away" instead of "at least 2 EPs away". Or it should precise if it talks about the hex behind the wall, or the wall itself. Personally, I would prefer something like "The block can breach remotely. The block has to be located in the firing arc of the Breach symbol's hex, at more than 2 EPs away from it, and have a sufficient fire range."

Still, these are just interpretations of mine. What do you think?
 
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Joris
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gzavatwar wrote:

I agree it's no. Because the firing block is not in the fire arc of the Breach symbol.

Yes it is.

Maybe start counting from the wall, not the breach symbol. Or ignore the wall's EPs in this case.
 
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Xavier GALLERI
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YosT wrote:
gzavatwar wrote:

I agree it's no. Because the firing block is not in the fire arc of the Breach symbol.

Yes it is.

You're right. My bad whistle

YosT wrote:
Maybe start counting from the wall, not the breach symbol. Or ignore the wall's EPs in this case.

Yep. Something like this.
 
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Nicola S
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Well, if the wall is NOT breached, then you cannot be at 2EP from it being in the adjecent hex.

I think you guys are throwing the breach in the computation before it is being made...

...or I am missing something obvious (which can very well be the case, BTW).
 
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Joris
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A facade with or without a breach costs 2EP to cross.
So either way the EP costs from F to E is 2. But is E really the location of the breach or do you count to somewhere else to get the distance to the breach-to-be?
 
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YosT wrote:
gzavatwar wrote:

No, since rule 8.2.1.4 says that "In the fire lane: The weapons effect applies up to 2 EPs beyond the obstacle." and the unmarked zone in C/D room is at 3 EPs beyond the partition.

But a partition is not a obstacle, is it? Only walls, outer walls, (buildings?) and woods are listed as obstacles.

Friedrich wrote:
If B is the target of a heavy weapon per the example of page 24 why the hex 0216 left of F isn't affected?

I would think all hexes adjacent to B are affected.
Unless you interpret Rule 8.2.1.4 to mean that the wall absorbs the blast and none of the hexes adjacent to B are affected, except maybe the ones adjacent to the aperture... Why have a rule for obstacles if they are treated just the same as normal hexes...

Another question, can you remote breach E from position F? I think not, but it is 2 EPs distance.


Just finished my first solo play,the wall 2ep absorb is very confusing,the example in page 24 that affect F have to be wrong,if wall absorbs 2eps.
I think the designer must give us more definitions and examples.
 
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Nicola S
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Let's try this again.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

I see two different problems discussed in this thread:

1) Example on page 24 and its implications
1A) EP cost for different zones in the same room: this remains a point to be clarified (I have asked to the developer on Strategikon). My take is that it is still 1EP (as for between rooms) because 0EP would have other grave implications...
1B) EP cost vs. weapons effect. If the weapons effect is 2EP, then, since crossing a wall (and getting to the destination hex) costs 2EP, it affects the hex (or space, if inside the building) on the other side of the wall.
It is a to be read as a cost to "cross and get to the other side".
Yes, it is somewhat different than what we are generally used to in wargaming (where obstacles are expressed as a "penalty over regular cost to move between hexes"), but the net result is exactly the same (of course they then threw a wrench in their own way of thinking when they gave costs for movement inside a building as a penatly, so that moving from one room to another actually costs 2: 1 for the movement and 1 for crossing the obstacle...oh well).
1C) Just as said, and this has been confirmed by the developer on Strategikon, so it is official, the 1MP/EP cost for the walls between rooms is because it is intended to be added to the room you want to get to, hence moving into a room while crossing a wall costs 2 MP/EP: 1 for the wall and 1 for the room


2) Breaching from a distance
- The breach you want to create is your target hex.
- You need to be at 2EP from it and in the firing arc of the (yet to be created) breach (which also implies that you need to be outside of the buliding). This also means that you cannot be in the adjecent hex of the breach when you are creating a breach remotely. That is not 2EP, that is just 1EP from the target hex (i.e. that of the breach)!
- the firing causes an effect similar to the weapons effect of (regular) firing (in the fire lane and/or around the firer and/or around the target). So in this case you have a 2EP attenuation inside due to the effect having to cross the wall.

Anything else?

(Sorry for being anal about this, but my intent is to distill all the doubts, ask the right questions to Nuts! - if and when they will reply - and come up with a structured FAQ/Errata document)
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Joris
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1C) What does rule 8.2.1.4 mean:
Quote:
Within range: the weapons effect is lowered for each obstacle
crossed (see the number of EP on the Terrain effect aid card).

It seems to imply obstacles do something special to the blast radius. Or should this rule just be ignored?
I mean, a clear hex also lowers the weapon effect by 1 EP.

Quote:
- The breach you want to create is your target hex.

This is my question. Where is the breach? The symbol is (often) in a room/zone, not a hex. In this example it is in zone E.
Now for example, if a Plt leader is in hex F and an infantry block is in zone E, for command purpose they are 2EP apart.
So E and F are 2 EP apart.
But for breaching you pick a hex in the arc of fire adjacent to the breach symbol? Is that how it works? If so, can you pick any, or must you choose the closest hex?

3) Some examples from Nuts! would really help:
- Creating a breach, showing weapon effects
- Command range of a leader (on a roof) into and through buildings
- JFO range, do buildings matter? What if they are on a roof?
 
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Nicola S
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1C) Mmm...I try to take a different perspective (based on my understanding of the rule that does not present doubts to me).

EP's are for measuring the distances of weapons effect what MP's are for measuring distance for movement.

Let's assume this situation:
A is a clear hex
B is ANY type of hex
A and B are separated by an outer wall

Movement:
You have a foot unit block that wants to go from A to B. The unit does not have a ladder.
It takes 5 MP to move from A to B.

Weapons Effect:
The distance in EP between A and B is 2EP.
So if A is the target of a heavy weapon that has a 2EP blast radius, B is impacted.
If B is in the line of fire of fire of a squad weapon and the target was in A, B is affected.

Breaching from a distance.
Again, here is what the rules say.
-You need to be outside the building and in the firing arc of the breach to be created. The fact that you need to be outside is a consequence of the need to be in the firing arc of the (yet to be created) breach.
-You need to be at 2EP from the breach.

Now for the little interpretation (though I would define it more as application of common practical sense):
- you are outside a wall
- you want to breach the wall with your heavy weapon
- you fire at the portion of the wall you want to take down
Therefore, your target (in game terms) is the portion of the wall corresponding to the partial hex around the yellow arrow(s)

So, in your example, the breach is not in zone E.
The breach is in the wall between zone E and the partial hex on the other side.
This is confirmed also in 5.1.3.2 - definition of breaches: Outer walls and facades may be pierced by apertures or breaches.
It does not talk about the breach being in the zone. So your example when computing the distance between E and F is wrong not because the EP count between E and F is wrong, but because the breach is NOT in E, it is in the wall, and hence you need to use the partial hex in front of you for the computation of EPs, not the inside of a building.
Also, you cannot be in F to create the breach from a distance for two reasons:
1) you are not respecting the 2EP distance (see above)
2) you are not in the breach firing arc
The only way to create a breach from F is to do it with the Engineers or a Bulldozer, i.e. "breaching in contact". In this case you need to be in the adjecent hex to the partial hex containing the wall to be breached, and F is such a valid hex.

I hope it is clearer now.

In any case I respectfully disagree that there is anything unclear in the parts of the rules that affect breaching and consequences of the example on page 24, except for the missing EP distance between zones.

For your other points, I need to check a couple of things before answering, as the topic has been brought up before and I think there is an official ruling (mainly EP distance from roofs when NOT firing, as that is covered in 5.1.7.3).
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Xavier GALLERI
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_viper_ wrote:
1C) Mmm...I try to take a different perspective (based on my understanding of the rule that does not present doubts to me).

Thanks for your support

_viper_ wrote:

EP's are for measuring the distances of weapons effect what MP's are for measuring distance for movement.

Let's assume this situation:
A is a clear hex
B is ANY type of hex
A and B are separated by an outer wall

Movement:
You have a foot unit block that wants to go from A to B. The unit does not have a ladder.
It takes 5 MP to move from A to B.

Agreed

_viper_ wrote:
Weapons Effect:
The distance in EP between A and B is 2EP.
So if A is the target of a heavy weapon that has a 2EP blast radius, B is impacted.

Agreed too. Moreover, B is impacted by the "2EP" effect. This is the reason why I prefer to consider the wall as giving a +1 EP cost.

_viper_ wrote:


If B is in the line of fire of fire of a squad weapon and the target was in A, B is affected.

Agreed.

_viper_ wrote:
Breaching from a distance.
Again, here is what the rules say.
-You need to be outside the building and in the firing arc of the breach to be created. The fact that you need to be outside is a consequence of the need to be in the firing arc of the (yet to be created) breach.
-You need to be at 2EP from the breach.

Now for the little interpretation (though I would define it more as application of common practical sense):
- you are outside a wall
- you want to breach the wall with your heavy weapon
- you fire at the portion of the wall you want to take down
Therefore, your target (in game terms) is the portion of the wall corresponding to the partial hex around the yellow arrow(s)

So, in your example, the breach is not in zone E.
The breach is in the wall between zone E and the partial hex on the other side.
This is confirmed also in 5.1.3.2 - definition of breaches: Outer walls and facades may be pierced by apertures or breaches.
It does not talk about the breach being in the zone.

I agree with this vision. Thus, rephrasing of the rule could be "The block can breach remotely. The block has to be located in the firing arc of the Breach symbol, not adjacent to its encompassing wall, and have a sufficient fire range."

_viper_ wrote:

So your example when computing the distance between E and F is wrong not because the EP count between E and F is wrong, but because the breach is NOT in E, it is in the wall, and hence you need to use the partial hex in front of you for the computation of EPs, not the inside of a building.
Also, you cannot be in F to create the breach from a distance for two reasons:
1) you are not respecting the 2EP distance (see above)
2) you are not in the breach firing arc
Yes. It is. As far as I understand templates on page 12 of the rules.
_viper_ wrote:

The only way to create a breach from F is to do it with the Engineers or a Bulldozer, i.e. "breaching in contact". In this case you need to be in the adjecent hex to the partial hex containing the wall to be breached, and F is such a valid hex.
Yes. F is ok also because it is in the fire arc of the Breach
_viper_ wrote:


I hope it is clearer now.

In any case I respectfully disagree that there is anything unclear in the parts of the rules that affect breaching and consequences of the example on page 24, except for the missing EP distance between zones.

For your other points, I need to check a couple of things before answering, as the topic has been brought up before and I think there is an official ruling (mainly EP distance from roofs when NOT firing, as that is covered in 5.1.7.3).


Thanks again.
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Nicola S
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Xavier,

Thank you. I think you are right, F is in the firing arc. Yet, it is not at 2EP or more, so:
- ok to breach in contact
- nok to breach remotely

I edited my post above accordingly.
 
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_viper_ wrote:
EP's are for measuring the distances of weapons effect what MP's are for measuring distance for movement.

This is my understanding as well, that's why I think rule 8.2.1.4 about obstacles in the blast radius should be ignored. Because Obstacles are not treated any different than clear hexes. There is a difference in EP, but not any special effect like obstacles in fire lanes.

Here are some cases. Did I get them right?
1) Engineers are in all possible adjacent spaces. In red is the 2EP (let's assume it's 2EP) blast radius when creating the breach.
 


2) MBT's at the shortest possible range to remote breach.
 


3) MBT's at the shortest possible range to remote breach to outer wall.
 


4) Engineers are in all possible adjacent spaces. In red is the 2EP blast radius when creating the breach.
 


5) MBT at the shortest possible range to remote breach.
 


6) 3D action target with a 2EP radius in red.
 


7) 3D action target with a 2EP radius in red.
 
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Nicola S
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Thanks for putting these together Joris!

Yet I have a few comments:

1) If the engineer in 0606 is breaching, then hexes 0705, 0706 and 0805 are at 2EP from the breach. 0706 is also affected if the engineer inside the building is breaching.

2) I think you are 1EP farther than you need to be. The breach is in the partial hex 0606, hence 0405 and 0505 are your closest hexes (rule says "at least 2EP", not > 2EP)

3) Same as above. The wall section to be breached is in 1907, so: tanks on the left OK, tanks on the right should be pulled to 2107 and 2108.

4) Just as above: breach is in the wall section in hex 1907, so 2EP radius includes: 1707, 1708 (also for coherency with the previous example!), 1808, 1908, 1909, and the room 38

5) that is a close one. I see a tiny little vertex of a partial hex sticking out from the wall. I would argue that the wall section to be breached is in that partial hex, hence the tank could be in hex 1507.

6) looks ok to me

7) room 38 is NOT affected. The situation is the same as 6. Passing a facade is 2EP, and the target is already 1EP from the facade, so to get inside you would need a 3EP radius.

Comments are welcome.
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1) The weapon effect for breaching/destroying is around the target, not around the firer. Since all Engineers target the same breach, I would expect the weapon effect to be the same for all.
Not sure if 0706, 0706 and 0805 should be included or not.

2) I think it depends from where you are counting. From wall to MBT, I count 3EP, but from MBT to wall I count 2EP.
I see the wall as being on the hexside, rather than in a hex. Maybe that's wrong.
So I count the center dots from MBT to the wall. So 2 full hexes. The partial hex I don't count a 1EP.

3) Same reasoning as above. The wall is on the hexsides between 1907 and 2006/2007.

4) Again I'm counting from the hexside. If you count from hex 1907, 2107 and 2108 should not be affected, as you cross a breach/wall from 1907 to 2006 for 2EP.
Room 38 may be affected either way... Not sure about that one.

5) Most of the wall is in 1406 and 1407 though. Can you just pick the spot that is furthest away?
Again, I'm using the hexside and counting center dots.

7) The situation is different from 6 as hex 1905 does not have a center dot, so I did not count it as 1EP. Blocks can not enter it, so why count it for EP?
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Nicola S
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My reasoning to determine distances is as follows (and this is where the majority of our diasgreement stems from). I picture the breach in the wall section confined by the two arrows or pointed at by the single arrow. I then look at the HEX this section is in (in all your examples with maybe the exception of 5).
In your case, if I have interpreted correctly, you instead picture the breach at the hex side, hence the difference in numbering.

So, with this in mind, here are my replies.

1) you are right that it does not depend on who is breaching. Nevertheless I count the hexes mentioned as being 2EP from the breach, regardless of the way you consider where the breach is (i.e. at the hex sides or the hex itself). So 0705, 0706 and 0805 are definitely included (NOTA: the 2EP effect does not stay within the firing arc!)

2-3-4) I think the problem here lies in our interpretation of where the breach is (as you have correctly guessed). So, if it is thought to be at the border of the hex, then your reasoning is correct.
The only potential flaw I see in your line of reasoning is that you end up with a non-reciprocity in the distances between two objects on the map and Nuts! has clearly stated (on Strategikon FAQ thread) that you need to have reciprocity in order for the game to work.
This leads me to think that we should consider that the breach is in the hex and not at its edge/border, otherwise you will always end up with differences depending on where you are counting from.

5) This is the most debatable of examples. But since we have only one arrow, I considered the tiny little hex vertex that it points to as the actual hex the breach is in...

7) Hex without center dots are impassable to units, that is true.
But to me they are used when counting distances, so I do not think they should be excluded (again, also because excluding them will lead to a violation of reciprocity in distances).

Interesting discussion nevertheless.

What I propose to ask on Strategikon is the following:
1) Are breaches at the border of a hex or inside a hex (even if only partial and without the center dot)?
2) [Related] Are partial hexes used when counting EP's?
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Andrew Stewart
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2) Left MBT is in fire arc of the breach, the other is not (per diagrams pg 12)
 
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