Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
38 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Wargames» Forums » General

Subject: Are FPS Video Games "War Games?" rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
T. Nomad
Netherlands
Den Bosch
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This thread was prompted by the article listed here:
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1555412017720359
Just War? War Games, War Crimes, and Game Design
by Iain Donald

It's really a two-pronged question:

- Are FPS video games habitually called "War Games?"
- Do the members of this forum think of them as such?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin L. Kitchens
United States
Gainesville
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
Snowflakes Melt
badge
Snowflakes Melt
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tommynomad wrote:
This thread was prompted by the article listed here:
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1555412017720359
Just War? War Games, War Crimes, and Game Design
by Iain Donald

It's really a two-pronged question:

- Are FPS video games habitually called "War Games?"
- Do the members of this forum think of them as such?


Technically YES... it's a game about war. Period. End of discussion.

But the common understanding of a wargame, then of course not. But then we get into the whole Is Twilight Struggle a wargame? (spoiler: yes)
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wayne Hansen
United States
Springfield
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I played a lot of GoldenEye and Halo back in the day, I never once thought of them as wargames. But I also wasn't familiar with the term, so maybe I was just unaware.

Or maybe it's only a wargame if it simulates a historical conflict, like the WW2 or Middle East era Call of Duty games?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron A
United States
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb


42
5 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Fung
United States
Old Greenwich
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SBGrad wrote:


42

Let's see how long it takes folk's to get this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Enrico Viglino
United States
Eugene
OR
flag msg tools
Slowed - BGG's moderation policies have driven me partially from here
badge
http://thegamebox.byethost15.com/smf/
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The (and minis) are NOT wargames as referred to in the sense
that is generally discussed here, which is about the board
wargame hobby. Even though there's a relationship between
the three (board, minis, and computer) hobbies, as well as
with the military usage, it's still a category error to
conflate them.

I don't know enough about the computer wargaming hobby to
know if they generally do include FPS games under their hobby.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin L. Kitchens
United States
Gainesville
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
Snowflakes Melt
badge
Snowflakes Melt
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
calvinboy24 wrote:
SBGrad wrote:


42

Let's see how long it takes folk's to get this.

Took you 3 minutes. I got it in seconds. 42 of them in fact.

Clearly THIS is a wargame too: Beating a Dead Horse
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brant G
United States
Raleigh
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tommynomad wrote:

- Are FPS video games habitually called "War Games?"

in academia, yes they are
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brant G
United States
Raleigh
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
A very similar point of view / discussion came up in a chapter of Zones of Control, the big book on wargaming that was released last Spring.

In my review of the book, I noted the following:
Quote:
Schulzke’s haranguing of America’s Army, the recruitment video game officially released by the US Army, is peppered with half-hearted attempts to caveat the criticism leveled at the game by other authors, while he himself mercilessly slams the game. He states “The propaganda function of AA is heightened by the way the game avoids considering alternative viewpoints on military service or on American military operations” and also notes that “The game likewise fails to consider the possible nonmilitary solutions to the conflict scenarios that frame the multiplayer battles or to raise the possibility that military operations could destabilize the countries in which they are carried out.” Both of those statements accurately portray the limitations of AA as it was released. And yet, both are completely beyond the scope of the game, whether it was designed as a propaganda tool or not. Applying this same line of criticism to other video games, Schulzke must also lay in bed at night wondering why the Madden series of NFL video games fail to include cut scenes of players in the trainer’s room undergoing concussion protocol testing, or why the Grand Theft Auto games don’t also venture into city-level public policy statements about preventative police tactics designed to pre-empt the crime sprees glorified by the game. The Call of Duty series, and every other FPS out there, manages to bypass kum-ba-ya drum circles as a means of resolving conflict without criticism. Holding AA to a higher standard because it was released by the US Army seems disingenuous, as though a US Army-sponsored game is somehow failing society if it doesn’t also incorporate the State Department, Doctors Without Borders, and Dr Rex Brynen.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brandon
United Kingdom
Exeter
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
calvinboy24 wrote:
SBGrad wrote:


42

Let's see how long it takes folk's to get this.

Should be about 7.5 million years.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris
Germany
Kassel
Hessen
flag msg tools
badge
Crush. Mix. Burn. Repeat.
Avatar
mbmb
bayonetbrant wrote:
tommynomad wrote:

- Are FPS video games habitually called "War Games?"

in academia, yes they are

Well, in my academia they would be called "text".
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JP Laurio
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
9 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bob Roberts

Unspecified
msg tools
Avatar
You can certainly play ARMA III rather like a wargame using the editor to run fairly large platoon+ sized actions, plotting out orders and letting the AI fight itself. And jump in at the first person level if you choose and join the action. And the stuff groups like Shack Tac do are lot like "wargames" in the military sense, simulating operations of up to company size.

But I don't think of it as a "wargame" like Russian Campaign or Panzer Leader or Fire and Fury or DBA.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alfy Burger
Mali
Bamako
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
FPS can absolutely be war games. But they're not wargames.

Spaces do have meaning in the written language, otherwisewewouldallbewritinglikethis.
5 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Enrico Viglino
United States
Eugene
OR
flag msg tools
Slowed - BGG's moderation policies have driven me partially from here
badge
http://thegamebox.byethost15.com/smf/
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AlfyB wrote:
FPS can absolutely be war games. But they're not wargames.

Spaces do have meaning in the written language, otherwisewewouldallbewritinglikethis.

And only Germans can do that.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Keane
United States
Medford
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
In my view and that of many mothers, FPS are war games, particularly ones that are simulating a historical war like all the WW2 games. Grognards may want "wargame" or "war game" to have some more specific universal definition, and there are endless posts on BGG arguing about it, but it is a semantic argument with no right or wrong answer, just different perspectives.

That said, there are other video games, namely turn-based with hex maps, that are much more analogous to a board wargame than FPS. Some early computer/console games like Star Control I and Military Madness sure felt like war games to me and received magazine awards like "Best War Game" or "Best Military Strategy Game." But these were largely replaced in the video game market by real-time-strategy games like Dune II and Warcraft, something that board wargames can't do as well.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Abe Delnore
United States
Pittsburgh
PA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
FPS games are not called "wargames" in videogame marketing. For that matter neither are RTS games. These are all distinct genres: FPS, RTS, and wargame. But they may all be "war games."
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Enrico Viglino
United States
Eugene
OR
flag msg tools
Slowed - BGG's moderation policies have driven me partially from here
badge
http://thegamebox.byethost15.com/smf/
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Abe Delnore wrote:
FPS games are not called "wargames" in videogame marketing. For that matter neither are RTS games. These are all distinct genres: FPS, RTS, and wargame. But they may all be "war games."

I dunno. I google RTS wargame, and a fair amount comes up. Not so much with
FPS. I think RTS is seen as a modifier, to be compared with turn-based.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Impaired Bear
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
This is a weird question, as a longtime PC gamer and gamer in general. Hopefully I am not misinterpreting the question.

If we are talking specifically FPS (First-person shooter) they are not all war games, not even close. There are loads of 'first-person' games that have no guns or combat at all like, Outlast, A Story About My Uncle, Portal, The Vanishing of Ethan Carter.

But, if we are talking about first-person shooters, with guns, again not all are wargames, in fact my favorite genre is FPS and I hate war themed games. Some of my favorites would include DOOM, Shadow Warrior, Borderlands, Bioshock, Left4Dead. All of these games have nothing to do with war, there are plenty of others as well.

So, I would never have even thought to call the FPS genre 'war-games'. Hope this helps!

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Impaired Bear
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
calandale wrote:
Abe Delnore wrote:
FPS games are not called "wargames" in videogame marketing. For that matter neither are RTS games. These are all distinct genres: FPS, RTS, and wargame. But they may all be "war games."

I dunno. I google RTS wargame, and a fair amount comes up. Not so much with
FPS. I think RTS is seen as a modifier, to be compared with turn-based.

RTS is Real-Time Strategy like Starcraft. TBS is Turn-Based Strategy like classic Final Fantasy games.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Impaired Bear
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
bayonetbrant wrote:
tommynomad wrote:

- Are FPS video games habitually called "War Games?"

in academia, yes they are

If this is actually true, it is very misinformed...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Franklin
United Kingdom
Braintree
Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Black Alexidor wrote:
RTS is Real-Time Strategy like Starcraft. TBS is Turn-Based Strategy like classic Final Fantasy games.

Eh? Final Fantasy is a Turn-Based RPG (or at least it was, they seem to be sliding further into Action RPGs since the majority wrote off turn-based as being far too square (pun intended)).

Final Fantasy Tactics would be Turn-Based Strategy, along with the likes of console siblings Fire Emblem or Advance Wars. On the PC and historical front, something like Battle Academy or Panzer Corps. (Although confusingly, by wargaming nomenclature these would all be mostly tactical. Video gaming doesn't have the same tactical / strategic / operational split, and likes to use the "strategy game" label).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Impaired Bear
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
tim-pelican wrote:
Black Alexidor wrote:
RTS is Real-Time Strategy like Starcraft. TBS is Turn-Based Strategy like classic Final Fantasy games.

Eh? Final Fantasy is a Turn-Based RPG (or at least it was, they seem to be sliding further into Action RPGs since the majority wrote off turn-based as being far too square (pun intended)).

Final Fantasy Tactics would be Turn-Based Strategy, along with the likes of console siblings Fire Emblem or Advance Wars. On the PC and historical front, something like Battle Academy or Panzer Corps. (Although confusingly, by wargaming nomenclature these would all be mostly tactical. Video gaming doesn't have the same tactical / strategic / operational split, and likes to use the "strategy game" label).

Lol you're totally right, I just hit the bong and was all confused with this thread and tacked on the strat. part to final fantasy without thinking. My bad.
1 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Enrico Viglino
United States
Eugene
OR
flag msg tools
Slowed - BGG's moderation policies have driven me partially from here
badge
http://thegamebox.byethost15.com/smf/
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Black Alexidor wrote:
calandale wrote:
Abe Delnore wrote:
FPS games are not called "wargames" in videogame marketing. For that matter neither are RTS games. These are all distinct genres: FPS, RTS, and wargame. But they may all be "war games."

I dunno. I google RTS wargame, and a fair amount comes up. Not so much with
FPS. I think RTS is seen as a modifier, to be compared with turn-based.

RTS is Real-Time Strategy like Starcraft. TBS is Turn-Based Strategy like classic Final Fantasy games.


To be closer to talking about wargames, Age of Rifles is turn-based.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rich Shipley
United States
Baltimore
Maryland
flag msg tools
badge
the liberal unsavory type
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If a turn-based game has maneuver with multiple units and combat between them, it is a wargame to me, regardless of format (board, miniatures, or computer) or subject matter.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   |