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Subject: Ogre's missing something... rss

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Martin Gallo
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Maybe the answer is...Nomographs.

Or a CRT sliderule.
 
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granitepenguin wrote:
GrauGeist wrote:
BTW, hex-and-chit is the issue, not hex-and-move.


hex-and-chit may well be a bigger factor in Ogre adoption than the CRT is. While I prefer hex-and-chit for a host of reasons (that aren't all nostalgic); it's a pretty simple fact that big, bright minis catch your attention a lot more effectively than little pieces of cardboard.

I would venture to say if Ogre 6e came out with minis from the get-go (even with the CRT intact) it would have been more successful.


Miniatures boardgames have strong visual appeal, that's a given. It's a big part of why miniatures boardgames have done exceedingly well on Kickstarter, compared to non-miniatures boardgames. IMO, quite a number of Euro / abstract / strategy games tack on miniatures precisely because the visual appeal gets people to open their wallets.

If Ogre 6E had the tabletop visual of HUGE red mk III vs a mob of tiny blue armor and infantry units, yes, that would have been more compelling. I would agree that the ODE KS would have been more successful if it had launched with effectively Ogre Minis Set 1 & 2, with the option to order additional minis sets and/or classic counter sets, but that's hypothetical water under the bridge.

Fortunately, SJG is looking like they'll be pretty well-positioned to launch Ogre 7E, GEV 7E, and Shockwave 7E, with lots of reinforcement packs!
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granitepenguin wrote:
GrauGeist wrote:

BTW, hex-and-chit is the issue, not hex-and-move.


hex-and-chit may well be a bigger factor in Ogre adoption than the CRT is. While I prefer hex-and-chit for a host of reasons (that aren't all nostalgic); it's a pretty simple fact that big, bright minis catch your attention a lot more effectively than little pieces of cardboard.

I would venture to say if Ogre 6e came out with minis from the get-go (even with the CRT intact) it would have been more successful.


Let me be the first of many (I Hope) to say that even though I supported the KS with minis, I DETEST PAINTING MINIS. I'D RATHER BE PLAYING. The 3D Ogres give me what I want in a mini; enough realism(or as real as an Ogre can be)to be entertaining. And if I want to trick them up it's a helluva lot easier to cobble cardboard than lead or resin...cheaper too.

As for the CRT debate, there have been many alternatives proposed throughout Ogre existence, some by commentators to this Thread. Why can't one use what they feel comfortable with and leave the rest?

If you want to have diceless chitless scenarios then PLEASE SUBMIT ONE. Let us see your ideas in action. Actions speak volumes over words. I Myself enjoy an interlude that may(or may not) have merit.

Indeed, it seems like the desire to turn Ogre into something akin to the SW minis because you like the SW system. Then write up a fan based variant. We now have the vehicle to bring your ideas out of the BGG dark hole and into the light with the Ogrezine.

I would greatly welcome it.
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David Rock

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Misplaced Buckeye wrote:

Let me be the first of many (I Hope) to say that even though I supported the KS with minis, I DETEST PAINTING MINIS. I'D RATHER BE PLAYING. The 3D Ogres give me what I want in a mini; enough realism(or as real as an Ogre can be)to be entertaining. And if I want to trick them up it's a helluva lot easier to cobble cardboard than lead or resin...cheaper too.


That's precisely why the new minis are moulded in different colors; ready to play with no painting required. To further drive home the point, my new copy of GW's Lost Patrol is still sitting in the box for exactly the opposite reason: multiple minis that need to be assembled *and* painted in order to be "enjoyable." Just the assembly is off-putting enough at the moment.

If a game has minis that are "play ready" out of the box (or at least relatively close) that's a big factor. There's no argument that nice-looking minis have a wow factor, but it's pointless if it never makes it to the table because it takes too much effort to get it there in the first place.

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Ron A
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granitepenguin wrote:
Just the assembly is off-putting enough at the moment.


Here's hoping the Ogre minis are easily and painlessly assembled. I live in terror of getting the sprue flash off of them myself. I've put together dozens of HO scale freight cars, and there's not 1 that I am SUPER happy with.*

That's probably why I'm only springing for one Mark III and one Mark V myself.







*yes, I have multiple xacto knives, cutters, sandpaper etc. Just not good at it.
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Misplaced Buckeye wrote:
Let me be the first of many (I Hope) to say that even though I supported the KS with minis, I DETEST PAINTING MINIS. I'D RATHER BE PLAYING. The 3D Ogres give me what I want in a mini; enough realism(or as real as an Ogre can be)to be entertaining. And if I want to trick them up it's a helluva lot easier to cobble cardboard than lead or resin...cheaper too.


Let me be the first of many to tell you that the current Ogre Miniatures require NO painting, are molded in color. Furthermore, they are plastic, not lead or resin or lead-free white metal; these plastics are at least as cheap as cardboard, probably cheaper overall.
 
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SBGrad wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:
Just the assembly is off-putting enough at the moment.


Here's hoping the Ogre minis are easily and painlessly assembled. I live in terror of getting the sprue flash off of them myself. I've put together dozens of HO scale freight cars, and there's not 1 that I am SUPER happy with.*

That's probably why I'm only springing for one Mark III and one Mark V myself.


This is first run from the tools, so flash should be minimal.

There is no requirement for this to be railroad scale perfect... This is a boardgame, not something you would take a magnifying glass to, and complain that your engine number is off by <1/16" compared to a photograph, or the shade is a hair too orange or a bit too dark...
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Brian McCue
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Re: Ogre's missing something...
Misplaced Buckeye wrote:
Indeed, it seems like the desire to turn Ogre into something akin to the SW minis because you like the SW system. Then write up a fan based variant. We now have the vehicle to bring your ideas out of the BGG dark hole and into the light with the Ogrezine.


Having played Ogre, on and off, since it came out, and having played SW once, I think that what people really like about the latter is the opposed-die-roll mechanic, and not having to look anything up in tables. (OK, they really like minis too, but help is on the way.)

So I would really like somebody to try my proposed variant (see also above):

--No combined attacks: each attacking unit (or, in the case of the Ogre, weapon) picks a target within range and rolls a D6: a result less than or equal to the attacker's strength is a hit, BUT
--The defender gets to try to negate the hit by rolling a D6: if the result is less than or equal to the target's defense strength (or modified defense strength, if there is terrain--OMG, addition!) then the hit is negated.
--Attacks on Ogre treads are still a special case: roll a D6 and on a 5 or 6 the treads take damage equal to the attacker's strength.
--If the attacker's and defender's dice are equal, Disabled is the result.

 
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Brian McCue
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Misplaced Buckeye wrote:
If you want to have diceless chitless scenarios then PLEASE SUBMIT ONE. Let us see your ideas in action. Actions speak volumes over words. I Myself enjoy an interlude that may(or may not) have merit.

Indeed, it seems like the desire to turn Ogre into something akin to the SW minis because you like the SW system. Then write up a fan based variant. We now have the vehicle to bring your ideas out of the BGG dark hole and into the light with the Ogrezine.

I would greatly welcome it.

I'd like to submit my Math-Free CRT (which doesn't change the game at all) and my Interpolated CRT (which does), with accompanying text that would probably be more or less what I said about them in the Files section. How do I contact Ogrezine to do that?
 
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David Rock

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brianmccue wrote:

So I would really like somebody to try my proposed variant (see also above):

--No combined attacks: each attacking unit (or, in the case of the Ogre, weapon) picks a target within range and rolls a D6: a result less than or equal to the attacker's strength is a hit, BUT
--The defender gets to try to negate the hit by rolling a D6: if the result is less than or equal to the target's defense strength (or modified defense strength, if there is terrain--OMG, addition multiplication!) then the hit is negated.
--Attacks on Ogre treads are still a special case: roll a D6 and on a 5 or 6 the treads take damage equal to the attacker's strength.
--If the attacker's and defender's dice are equal, Disabled is the result.



I've given it a spin and so far, it's been interesting. The main things I have noticed so far:

1. disabled is a _very_ narrow window; the effects are more swingy to either X or NE.
2. Extremes seem to favor the defense. For example; a HWZ attacking a 1-INF should be an auto-kill at 6:1, but now it's effectively a 2:1 because there's a chance to not be hit at all.
3. There's no allowance for Ogre's being immune to Disabled results, although for the most part because of #2, it sort of works out that way anyway.
4. Terrain makes a HUGE mess. Anything with a D value of 6 or higher can't be hit directly (best case is a 16% chance of a D). For high values of D, an X is impossible.

Also, in the case of (A4 against a D2)

Attack is successful (rolls a 4)
Defense is unsuccessful (also rolls a 4)
What happens? Is this a D, or an X? I would think it should be a D only if the defense roll was successful (which it was not).

Overall, it's very fluid, but I'm not sure it's balanced yet. There needs to be some way to allow combined fire to improve the odds (i.e., get an X result), or units will hole up in towns and be impossible to dig out. Just imagine a D5 SHVY in a town...
 
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David Rock

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brianmccue wrote:
Misplaced Buckeye wrote:
If you want to have diceless chitless scenarios then PLEASE SUBMIT ONE. Let us see your ideas in action. Actions speak volumes over words. I Myself enjoy an interlude that may(or may not) have merit.

Indeed, it seems like the desire to turn Ogre into something akin to the SW minis because you like the SW system. Then write up a fan based variant. We now have the vehicle to bring your ideas out of the BGG dark hole and into the light with the Ogrezine.

I would greatly welcome it.

I'd like to submit my Math-Free CRT (which doesn't change the game at all) and my Interpolated CRT (which does), with accompanying text that would probably be more or less what I said about them in the Files section. How do I contact Ogrezine to do that?


http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/products/ogrezine/writing.html
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granitepenguin wrote:
brianmccue wrote:

So I would really like somebody to try my proposed variant (see also above):

--No combined attacks: each attacking unit (or, in the case of the Ogre, weapon) picks a target within range and rolls a D6: a result less than or equal to the attacker's strength is a hit, BUT
--The defender gets to try to negate the hit by rolling a D6: if the result is less than or equal to the target's defense strength (or modified defense strength, if there is terrain--OMG, addition multiplication!) then the hit is negated.
--Attacks on Ogre treads are still a special case: roll a D6 and on a 5 or 6 the treads take damage equal to the attacker's strength.
--If the attacker's and defender's dice are equal, Disabled is the result.

I've given it a spin and so far, it's been interesting.

Thanks so much for trying it!
granitepenguin wrote:
The main things I have noticed so far:

1. disabled is a _very_ narrow window; the effects are more swingy to either X or NE.
2. Extremes seem to favor the defense. For example; a HWZ attacking a 1-INF should be an auto-kill at 6:1, but now it's effectively a 2:1 because there's a chance to not be hit at all.
3. There's no allowance for Ogre's being immune to Disabled results, although for the most part because of #2, it sort of works out that way anyway.
4. Terrain makes a HUGE mess. Anything with a D value of 6 or higher can't be hit directly (best case is a 16% chance of a D). For high values of D, an X is impossible.

1. I'm surprised, because Disabled is the one outcome whose probability (1/6) hasn't changed.
2. Interesting.
3. Right. Let's add
--Ogres do not suffer the Disabled result.
4. I wasn't thinking of terrain mods because I was thinking original Ogre. If people are playing terrain then they have learned to add so they can learn how to divide, too.
granitepenguin wrote:
Also, in the case of (A4 against a D2)

Attack is successful (rolls a 4)
Defense is unsuccessful (also rolls a 4)
What happens? Is this a D, or an X? I would think it should be a D only if the defense roll was successful (which it was not).

Yes, D.

Thank you again for trying my idea.
 
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granitepenguin wrote:
Misplaced Buckeye wrote:

Let me be the first of many (I Hope) to say that even though I supported the KS with minis, I DETEST PAINTING MINIS. I'D RATHER BE PLAYING


That's precisely why the new minis are moulded in different colors; ready to play with no painting required.


I hate painting too, I can't do it. But I love the look of playing with pre-painted miniatures. I didn't get the Ogre miniature for that reason. I know they are in two colors, one for each side, but they're not pre-painted. Had they been I most likely would have gotten them.

I like my 3D cardboard Ogres. I like the different colors and names on them. The pre-painting is the main reason I purchased X-Wing miniatures oddly enough.
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granitepenguin wrote:
The main things I have noticed so far:

1. disabled is a _very_ narrow window; the effects are more swingy to either X or NE.
2. Extremes seem to favor the defense. For example; a HWZ attacking a 1-INF should be an auto-kill at 6:1, but now it's effectively a 2:1 because there's a chance to not be hit at all.
3. There's no allowance for Ogre's being immune to Disabled results, although for the most part because of #2, it sort of works out that way anyway.
4. Terrain makes a HUGE mess. Anything with a D value of 6 or higher can't be hit directly (best case is a 16% chance of a D). For high values of D, an X is impossible.



brianmccue wrote:

1. I'm surprised, because Disabled is the one outcome whose probability (1/6) hasn't changed.

Actually, it has. Most columns on the CRT have a 33% chance of a D, not a 16%

brianmccue wrote:
4. I wasn't thinking of terrain mods because I was thinking original Ogre. If people are playing terrain then they have learned to add so they can learn how to divide, too.

The problem is it has to work for terrain, or it will fall on its face. Besides, you are the one that brought up terrain in the first place ;-)

brianmccue wrote:

granitepenguin wrote:

What happens? Is this a D, or an X? I would think it should be a D only if the defense roll was successful (which it was not).

Yes, D.

In that case, the odds of getting a D drop even more, since some of them will be invalid (as in the above example).

brianmccue wrote:

Thank you again for trying my idea.

Any time :-)
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Ken at Sunrise wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:
Misplaced Buckeye wrote:

Let me be the first of many (I Hope) to say that even though I supported the KS with minis, I DETEST PAINTING MINIS. I'D RATHER BE PLAYING


That's precisely why the new minis are moulded in different colors; ready to play with no painting required.


I hate painting too, I can't do it. But I love the look of playing with pre-painted miniatures. I didn't get the Ogre miniature for that reason. I know they are in two colors, one for each side, but they're not pre-painted. Had they been I most likely would have gotten them.

I like my 3D cardboard Ogres. I like the different colors and names on them. The pre-painting is the main reason I purchased X-Wing miniatures oddly enough.


I have plenty of old games that have minis that are moulded in single colors and it's more than enough to play. The difference is most of those are really just glorified tokens; nobody expects to paint them.

The problem is painting miniatures is a WHOLE DIFFERENT HOBBY that just happens to apply to pieces of a boardgame sometimes. Some people like playing boardgames, some like painting, and some like both. Painting minis should never be a REQUIREMENT for playing a boardgame; forcing one hobby down someone's throat so they can enjoy another is wrong.
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Bits2Bytes wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:

The problem is painting miniatures is a WHOLE DIFFERENT HOBBY that just happens to apply to pieces of a boardgame sometimes. Some people like playing boardgames, some like painting, and some like both. Painting minis should never be a REQUIREMENT for playing a boardgame; forcing one hobby down someone's throat so they can enjoy another is wrong.


Don't tell that to the WarHammer 40K or Bolt Action or Flames of War players.



I've been playing Space Hulk since 1989 and have never painted a single mini; my life does not feel incomplete.

To be fair, I still prefer the Classic Ogre counters, so I'm probably not the best data sample. ;-)
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Bits2Bytes wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:

The problem is painting miniatures is a WHOLE DIFFERENT HOBBY that just happens to apply to pieces of a boardgame sometimes. Some people like playing boardgames, some like painting, and some like both. Painting minis should never be a REQUIREMENT for playing a boardgame; forcing one hobby down someone's throat so they can enjoy another is wrong.


Don't tell that to the WarHammer 40K or Bolt Action or Flames of War players.

As a former 40k player, painting minis is the main reason for the "former".
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granitepenguin wrote:
Ken at Sunrise wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:
Misplaced Buckeye wrote:

Let me be the first of many (I Hope) to say that even though I supported the KS with minis, I DETEST PAINTING MINIS. I'D RATHER BE PLAYING


That's precisely why the new minis are moulded in different colors; ready to play with no painting required.


I hate painting too, I can't do it. But I love the look of playing with pre-painted miniatures. I didn't get the Ogre miniature for that reason. I know they are in two colors, one for each side, but they're not pre-painted. Had they been I most likely would have gotten them.

I like my 3D cardboard Ogres. I like the different colors and names on them. The pre-painting is the main reason I purchased X-Wing miniatures oddly enough.


I have plenty of old games that have minis that are moulded in single colors and it's more than enough to play. The difference is most of those are really just glorified tokens; nobody expects to paint them.

The problem is painting miniatures is a WHOLE DIFFERENT HOBBY that just happens to apply to pieces of a boardgame sometimes. Some people like playing boardgames, some like painting, and some like both. Painting minis should never be a REQUIREMENT for playing a boardgame; forcing one hobby down someone's throat so they can enjoy another is wrong.


BTW, I never said that painting miniatures should be a requirement for playing a boardgame. Of course that doesn't make sense. But there are Ogre miniatures available for this game and more miniatures coming out. So I wasn't trying to force anything on anyone.

I was simply saying: A) I like painted miniatures; B) This game has miniatures that are not pre-painted; C)I don't paint miniatures; D) I've gotten into games because of their pre-painted miniatures.

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Ken at Sunrise wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:

I have plenty of old games that have minis that are moulded in single colors and it's more than enough to play. The difference is most of those are really just glorified tokens; nobody expects to paint them.

The problem is painting miniatures is a WHOLE DIFFERENT HOBBY that just happens to apply to pieces of a boardgame sometimes. Some people like playing boardgames, some like painting, and some like both. Painting minis should never be a REQUIREMENT for playing a boardgame; forcing one hobby down someone's throat so they can enjoy another is wrong.


BTW, I never said that painting miniatures should be a requirement for playing a boardgame. Of course that doesn't make sense. But there are Ogre miniatures available for this game and more miniatures coming out. So I wasn't trying to force anything on anyone.

I was simply saying: A) I like painted miniatures; B) This game has miniatures that are not pre-painted; C)I don't paint miniatures; D) I've gotten into games because of their pre-painted miniatures.



I'm not directing my comments at you; it's just a general commentary on what I've seen. Historically, whenever there are minis involved, there seems to be pressure for them to be painted. Do they look better than unpainted? Usually. Does it diminish a boardgamer's experience if they aren't? Doubtful.

I personally think there are two different classes of minis players:
1. players that like painting minis, and oh-by-the-way, use them to play games. The art is the point.
2. players that play boardgames that happen to have minis where the minis are tokens in the game, not the point of the game.

Over the last few years, these lines have blurred a bit, and the expectations from one seem to be bleeding into the other. I'm not sure that's a good thing.
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granitepenguin wrote:
Ken at Sunrise wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:
Misplaced Buckeye wrote:

Let me be the first of many (I Hope) to say that even though I supported the KS with minis, I DETEST PAINTING MINIS. I'D RATHER BE PLAYING


That's precisely why the new minis are moulded in different colors; ready to play with no painting required.


I hate painting too, I can't do it. But I love the look of playing with pre-painted miniatures. I didn't get the Ogre miniature for that reason. I know they are in two colors, one for each side, but they're not pre-painted. Had they been I most likely would have gotten them.

I like my 3D cardboard Ogres. I like the different colors and names on them. The pre-painting is the main reason I purchased X-Wing miniatures oddly enough.


I have plenty of old games that have minis that are moulded in single colors and it's more than enough to play. The difference is most of those are really just glorified tokens; nobody expects to paint them.

The problem is painting miniatures is a WHOLE DIFFERENT HOBBY that just happens to apply to pieces of a boardgame sometimes. Some people like playing boardgames, some like painting, and some like both. Painting minis should never be a REQUIREMENT for playing a boardgame; forcing one hobby down someone's throat so they can enjoy another is wrong.


Wat?

Nobody's forcing anybody to paint anything. While it is true that professionally-painted minitures look great, there are *lots* of people who play bare metal and bare plastic. The notion that one must paint miniatures to some sort of exacting standard is entirely in your head.
 
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GrauGeist wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:
Ken at Sunrise wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:
Misplaced Buckeye wrote:

Let me be the first of many (I Hope) to say that even though I supported the KS with minis, I DETEST PAINTING MINIS. I'D RATHER BE PLAYING


That's precisely why the new minis are moulded in different colors; ready to play with no painting required.


I hate painting too, I can't do it. But I love the look of playing with pre-painted miniatures. I didn't get the Ogre miniature for that reason. I know they are in two colors, one for each side, but they're not pre-painted. Had they been I most likely would have gotten them.

I like my 3D cardboard Ogres. I like the different colors and names on them. The pre-painting is the main reason I purchased X-Wing miniatures oddly enough.


I have plenty of old games that have minis that are moulded in single colors and it's more than enough to play. The difference is most of those are really just glorified tokens; nobody expects to paint them.

The problem is painting miniatures is a WHOLE DIFFERENT HOBBY that just happens to apply to pieces of a boardgame sometimes. Some people like playing boardgames, some like painting, and some like both. Painting minis should never be a REQUIREMENT for playing a boardgame; forcing one hobby down someone's throat so they can enjoy another is wrong.


Wat?

Nobody's forcing anybody to paint anything. While it is true that professionally-painted minitures look great, there are *lots* of people who play bare metal and bare plastic. The notion that one must paint miniatures to some sort of exacting standard is entirely in your head.
In my 40K days there was definitely an expectation that minis be painted; Official GW stores literally didn't allow playing with unpainted minis on their tables! Though I think that has changed, haven't played in one in a very long time...
Of course to what standard is a different issue, and I fully admit that part of the issue was the (too high) standard I held myself to
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
GrauGeist wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:
Painting minis should never be a REQUIREMENT for playing a boardgame; forcing one hobby down someone's throat so they can enjoy another is wrong.


Wat?

Nobody's forcing anybody to paint anything. While it is true that professionally-painted minitures look great, there are *lots* of people who play bare metal and bare plastic. The notion that one must paint miniatures to some sort of exacting standard is entirely in your head.
In my 40K days there was definitely an expectation that minis be painted; Official GW stores literally didn't allow playing with unpainted minis on their tables! Though I think that has changed, haven't played in one in a very long time...
Of course to what standard is a different issue, and I fully admit that part of the issue was the (too high) standard I held myself to


Yes, "the GW hobby" pushed for painted minis. The tournament scene and painting contests were highly visible, deliberately so, for GW's marketing purposes. The reality is that vast bulk of GW stuff didn't get painted, except for in-store play or at sanctioned GW tournaments that required painting. GW stores were/are physical advertising for product that is overwhelmingly played unpainted at home.

I sorely doubt that any Ogre tournaments are to going require painted miniatures. Heck, most of them would probably be OK with the "classic" (but large print) counters in lieu of miniatures.
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Ken
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granitepenguin wrote:
[...]Historically, whenever there are minis involved, there seems to be pressure for them to be painted. Do they look better than unpainted? Usually. Does it diminish a boardgamer's experience if they aren't? Doubtful.


Diminish or enhance? I see your point, but painted miniatures, especially one's well done are awesome and honestly add to the play experience. Of course this is just me.

And yes I agree there is, and has been for years, growing pressure to paint your figures/miniatures.


GrauGeist wrote:
Wat?

Nobody's forcing anybody to paint anything. While it is true that professionally-painted minitures look great, there are *lots* of people who play bare metal and bare plastic. The notion that one must paint miniatures to some sort of exacting standard is entirely in your head.


No it is NOT entirely in someone's head and not just GW either. I personally have been in game stores and made to feel unwelcome with unpainted miniatures. Several local event require that you must paint your miniatures to participate. Of course no one requires you to as a rule, but no one requires you to play the game either, neither of which address the point. Which is to say that playing in certain venues require you to have painted miniatures.


granitepenguin wrote:
[...]Over the last few years, these lines have blurred a bit, and the expectations from one seem to be bleeding into the other. I'm not sure that's a good thing.


I don't see it either way, yet! I agree that often they are not required for play but a board game can be very enhanced by miniatures and the feel for the theme can go way up if they are painted and detailed. Or did I just repeat myself? I need to keep posts shorter.
 
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Frank McNally
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Games with gray minis for both sides require either paint or markers indicating ownership (unless unit types are radically different). In most cases, unpainted minis are inferior to chits. Even when sides are identified by using 2 colors of resins, if unit type requires close inspection of mini, I find it annoying and would prefer chits or minis painted to highlight the differences.
 
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Ken
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FrankM wrote:
Games with gray minis for both sides require either paint or markers indicating ownership (unless unit types are radically different). In most cases, unpainted minis are inferior to chits. Even when sides are identified by using 2 colors of resins, if unit type requires close inspection of mini, I find it annoying and would prefer chits or minis painted to highlight the differences.


I had the manager of a game store actual say "if you're not going to paint your miniature you may as well use cardboard chits". We don't play or shop there any more even though we now have a lot of painted miniatures.
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