Recommend
9 
 Thumb up
 Hide
308 Posts
[1]  Prev «  9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13  Next »  [13] | 

Ogre» Forums » General

Subject: Ogre's missing something... rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
G G
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Tournament and in-store play account for less than 5% of GW gaming, and they pushed harder than just about anybody else. You can compare GW revenues with tournament attendance and it's obvious that the overwhelming amount of miniatures wargaming is unpainted.

Switch it over to miniatures boardgaming, like Ogre, and it's a non-requirement.

It's like you guys are arguing that Formula 1 rules somehow apply to driving on regular public streets. Just because Formula 1 ran at Long Beach does not mean Long Beach is a race course and that only multi-million dollar race cars that go as fast as X are allowed.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Niko
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
GrauGeist wrote:
Tournament and in-store play account for less than 5% of GW gaming, and they pushed harder than just about anybody else. You can compare GW revenues with tournament attendance and it's obvious that the overwhelming amount of miniatures wargaming is unpainted.
Don't you mean it is obvious that all gaming happens at tournaments and stores and all the other revenue comes from people buying minis just to paint and never play with?
Obviously I'm janking your chain, but that argument above isn't convincing at all.

I think it just really depends on the group one plays with, even after I stopped playing in stores and only played private games with friends at home there was still an expectation of painting (not as in "never field grey models", but as in "wait, haven't you had that unit for like 3 months and it still is only primed?!")
There will quite likely be groups that have only a few painted models between them (if that)

As to what the percentage of each is I have no idea and would rather not speculate

Anyways, board games with minis (e.g. Ogre with minis on a hex map, Cthulhu Wars, Kingdom Death) are a totally different ball of wax than 40K and it's ilk. I agree that it appears to be the default in the former to play with unpainted minis.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Keith Lewis
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
granitepenguin wrote:
Misplaced Buckeye wrote:

Let me be the first of many (I Hope) to say that even though I supported the KS with minis, I DETEST PAINTING MINIS. I'D RATHER BE PLAYING. The 3D Ogres give me what I want in a mini; enough realism(or as real as an Ogre can be)to be entertaining. And if I want to trick them up it's a helluva lot easier to cobble cardboard than lead or resin...cheaper too.


That's precisely why the new minis are moulded in different colors; ready to play with no painting required. To further drive home the point, my new copy of GW's Lost Patrol is still sitting in the box for exactly the opposite reason: multiple minis that need to be assembled *and* painted in order to be "enjoyable." Just the assembly is off-putting enough at the moment.

If a game has minis that are "play ready" out of the box (or at least relatively close) that's a big factor. There's no argument that nice-looking minis have a wow factor, but it's pointless if it never makes it to the table because it takes too much effort to get it there in the first place.



But they really aren't. People won't be satisfied. And you do have to assemble them. I just watch the unboxing video.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G G
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
GrauGeist wrote:
You can compare GW revenues with tournament attendance and it's obvious that the overwhelming amount of miniatures wargaming is unpainted.

As to what the percentage of each is I have no idea and would rather not speculate

Anyways, board games with minis (e.g. Ogre with minis on a hex map, Cthulhu Wars, Kingdom Death) are a totally different ball of wax than 40K and it's ilk. I agree that it appears to be the default in the former to play with unpainted minis.


Fair enough, and thanks.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Labelle
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm fine with the blue and red plastic. It makes it a bit Milton Bradley'ish.
I have all the the "Wings Of Glory" WW1 pre painted planes. All!
$10 to $15 bucks per plane.
Times 150 planes.
This equals what one will do for beautiful and interesting minis.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron A
United States
Coronado
California
flag msg tools
badge
Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet-Gen. Mattis
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Momoshiro wrote:
I'm fine with the blue and red plastic. It makes it a bit Milton Bradley'ish.
I have all the the "Wings Of Glory" WW1 pre painted planes. All!
$10 to $15 bucks per plane.
Times 150 planes.
This equals what one will do for beautiful and interesting minis.


Yikes! The cost, in $$$ and storage space required is why I've never gotten into minis (+ the inability to paint them). I truly hope that Ogre doesn't end up like this-- if it does, at least I have the ODE counters to fall back on.

A datapoint in the 'are minis required to be painted for organized play' debate: http://www.sdhist.com/bolt-action-tourney.html

Our local con is hosting a Bolt Action tourney, and while not required, painting 'preferred', and painted armies get a beneficial DRM in combat. Shudder. That way lies madness.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Reed
United States
Kyle
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ken at Sunrise wrote:
I've gotten into games because of their pre-painted miniatures.


If Imperial Assault had been pre-painted, I would have been doomed. Thank you, FFG, for saving me lots of cash!!!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Rock

Illinois
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Misplaced Buckeye wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:

... Just the assembly is off-putting enough at the moment.

If a game has minis that are "play ready" out of the box (or at least relatively close) that's a big factor. There's no argument that nice-looking minis have a wow factor, but it's pointless if it never makes it to the table because it takes too much effort to get it there in the first place.



But they really aren't. People won't be satisfied. And you do have to assemble them. I just watch the unboxing video.


Yeah, I know "some assembly required." :-(

Nothing's perfect, but some gluing with "ready to play" colors is more likely to make it to the table. I equate that much effort to punching out counters. I *do* plan to paint what I have eventually, but I also have minis that are 30 years old that haven't even been primed yet, too; so I'm glad I'll have the option.

Not to mention the glow-in-the-dark units... painting them would be at cross-purposes. :-)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron A
United States
Coronado
California
flag msg tools
badge
Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet-Gen. Mattis
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
granitepenguin wrote:

Not to mention the glow-in-the-dark units... painting them would be at cross-purposes.


I can't paint so I won't be doing this, BUUUUTTT, I had an idea... what abut a partially painted GitD Ogre? Sort of battledamaged, and the glowy parts are the bare metal, irradiated from all the tac nukes? ...and yes, even the non damaged painted parts would be irradiated, but c'mon, cut me some slack.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Rock

Illinois
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SBGrad wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:

Not to mention the glow-in-the-dark units... painting them would be at cross-purposes.


I can't paint so I won't be doing this, BUUUUTTT, I had an idea... what abut a partially painted GitD Ogre? Sort of battledamaged, and the glowy parts are the bare metal, irradiated from all the tac nukes? ...and yes, even the non damaged painted parts would be irradiated, but c'mon, cut me some slack.


I thought the same thing. You could have some entertaining effects, maybe a glowing smiley face? :-)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G G
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Depending on how the various parts connections were designed, and how precisely they were made, there is a chance that the pending Ogre Miniatures could be press-fit / snap-fit, no glue required.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
West Palm Beach
Florida
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PhilReed wrote:
Ken at Sunrise wrote:
I've gotten into games because of their pre-painted miniatures.


If Imperial Assault had been pre-painted, I would have been doomed. Thank you, FFG, for saving me lots of cash!!!


Phil I'm with you on that. Though I'm sure we'll find something else to send it on.

Momoshiro wrote:
I'm fine with the blue and red plastic. It makes it a bit Milton Bradley'ish.
I have all the the "Wings Of Glory" WW1 pre painted planes. All!
$10 to $15 bucks per plane.
Times 150 planes.
This equals what one will do for beautiful and interesting minis.


Well I don't have that many planes, about 1/2, but I used the saving for X-Wing (I'm a Star Wars Fan and my wife WWI).

Back on topic: I still think the cardboard 3D Ogres and targets are awesome. I've purchased multiples of every sponsored sheet (save one). The design, art and 3D effect are great for the game. For a guy like me that doesn't paint this is a fantastic mid-point.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Rock

Illinois
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Momoshiro wrote:
I'm fine with the blue and red plastic. It makes it a bit Milton Bradley'ish.


I agree with you based on the impressions I get from the available images, but I will wait to pass judgement on their look until after I actually have them in my hands. :-)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Rock

Illinois
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GrauGeist wrote:
Depending on how the various parts connections were designed, and how precisely they were made, there is a chance that the pending Ogre Miniatures could be press-fit / snap-fit, no glue required.


That would be nice, but it seems unlikely, at least for some of the smaller bits. It's likely advisable to glue regardless so you don't lose pieces.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Keith Lewis
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
granitepenguin wrote:
Misplaced Buckeye wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:

... Just the assembly is off-putting enough at the moment.

If a game has minis that are "play ready" out of the box (or at least relatively close) that's a big factor. There's no argument that nice-looking minis have a wow factor, but it's pointless if it never makes it to the table because it takes too much effort to get it there in the first place.



But they really aren't. People won't be satisfied. And you do have to assemble them. I just watch the unboxing video.


Yeah, I know "some assembly required." :-(

Nothing's perfect, but some gluing with "ready to play" colors is more likely to make it to the table. I equate that much effort to punching out counters. I *do* plan to paint what I have eventually, but I also have minis that are 30 years old that haven't even been primed yet, too; so I'm glad I'll have the option.

Not to mention the glow-in-the-dark units... painting them would be at cross-purposes. :-)


Actually I have already got a place in the Ogreverse for the GITD. They will be part of the Ogrethulu battalion I have been using in my Light and Dark scenarios against the Vatican forces.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Ptak
United States
Livermore
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Talking about miniatures I think helps the game's presentation... but 6E's already knocked this out of the park. The box is slick, the rules are well-presented, and the chits are well within what you'd expect in a modern game. The 3D Ogres and units are an exceptional touch.

But I'm still thinking the combat needs streamlining, regardless of whether you're putting miniatures on the table or cardboard on a map. Both are going to run into the same issues if you have to compute to play. Going pure miniatures would bring Ogre more in-line with the 40K run of miniatures games... but they've been moving away from complexity for a reason, and SW Legion is poised to overcome even that with a compare-results approach to combat resolution.

I keep pushing this because Ogre is supposed to be quick, fast, and simple. That CRT doesn't make it so for the kind of audiences I'm trying to sell Ogre to. I intend to buy the minis to push the game to be as impressive as possible (It will be awesome to model terrain in that scale!) but the game can be improved.

There's also still the matter mentioned in my original post. If you want to play Ogre, and throw down an all-comers battle scenario between two armies you've allocated points for, what scenario do you want to play? What's a scenario where I can just assemble a force and fight my opponent without special rules or conditions?

...something other than Ceasefire collapse.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Niko
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Norsehound wrote:
There's also still the matter mentioned in my original post. If you want to play Ogre, and throw down an all-comers battle scenario between two armies you've allocated points for, what scenario do you want to play? What's a scenario where I can just assemble a force and fight my opponent without special rules or conditions?
How about this:
Each side gets a mobile CP in addition to their forces. Goal is to destroy the opposing M-CP, at which point you can retreat yours off the map to win the game immediately, or if both CPs are destroyed whoever took more casualties lost.

You'd have to play around with where you can retreat the M-CPs, starting map edge would be kinda boring, but opposing edge seems too punishing...

I think this gives you an interesting all comers objective where you can either try to build a mobile forces to attack and get out quick or a slower force to grind up the board to your opponent.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Desert Scribe
msg tools
Norsehound wrote:
There's also still the matter mentioned in my original post. If you want to play Ogre, and throw down an all-comers battle scenario between two armies you've allocated points for, what scenario do you want to play? What's a scenario where I can just assemble a force and fight my opponent without special rules or conditions?

...something other than Ceasefire collapse.


Ceasef ... just kidding.

My actual suggestion: Pick one of the large (7+ hexes) towns on one of the green maps. Use overlays to expand it if desired. The attacker's goal is to capture the town by having at least one unit occupying any still-standing town hex at the end of the game. The defender's goal is to save the town by making sure no enemy unit is within range of any still-standing town hex at the end of the game. Attacker's army is twice the strength of the defender's. If that's not enough, try it with three times the strength. Use the terrain destruction, camouflage setup, and dummy unit rules, with defender setting up first and attacker coming in from the far side of the map. Starting on turn 8, roll two dice. If the total is equal to or less than the turn number, the game ends.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G G
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Norsehound wrote:
Talking about miniatures I think helps the game's presentation...

but 6E's already knocked this out of the park.

The 3D Ogres and units are an exceptional touch.

But I'm still thinking the combat needs streamlining,

If you want to play Ogre, and throw down an all-comers battle scenario between two armies you've allocated points for, what scenario do you want to play?

...something other than Ceasefire collapse.


The miniatures look great.

6E is what the ODE core should have been: a focused game with a reasonable counter mix that doesn't saddle the PE player with an excess of HWZ, trains and terrain; all in a backpack-portable box.

The 2.5D Ogres look strange, as do the 2.5D CPs. And the oddity of so many unique counter shapes is unnecessary when simple discs or squares would have been more player-friendly.

I take ODE and 6E to be the final edition for the hex-and-chit crowd, in appropriately large print for failing eyesight. Streamlining the combat is something that should have been done ages ago, but I get that Ogre historically hasn't driven the sort of revenue that would allow for a more modern game engine to be developed and tested properly.

Scenario-wise, it's pretty simple, as there's only one such scenario published by SJG...
... oh, nevermind.

Quite frankly, Ogre should have several such balanced points scenarios, with a proper points engine and scenario generator. It's really too bad that SJG didn't use the "extra scenarios" promised for ODE to create a whole new (to Ogre) way to play.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Keith Lewis
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
DesertScrb wrote:
Norsehound wrote:
There's also still the matter mentioned in my original post. If you want to play Ogre, and throw down an all-comers battle scenario between two armies you've allocated points for, what scenario do you want to play? What's a scenario where I can just assemble a force and fight my opponent without special rules or conditions?

...something other than Ceasefire collapse.


Ceasef ... just kidding.

My actual suggestion: Pick one of the large (7+ hexes) towns on one of the green maps. Use overlays to expand it if desired. The attacker's goal is to capture the town by having at least one unit occupying any still-standing town hex at the end of the game. The defender's goal is to save the town by making sure no enemy unit is within range of any still-standing town hex at the end of the game. Attacker's army is twice the strength of the defender's. If that's not enough, try it with three times the strength. Use the terrain destruction, camouflage setup, and dummy unit rules, with defender setting up first and attacker coming in from the far side of the map. Starting on turn 8, roll two dice. If the total is equal to or less than the turn number, the game ends.


Since he mentions 6e in the original post, the means NO green boards or overlays. Nice suggestion and I might give it a whirl...just won't work for 6e, just ODE
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Rock

Illinois
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Misplaced Buckeye wrote:

Since he mentions 6e in the original post, the means NO green boards or overlays. Nice suggestion and I might give it a whirl...just won't work for 6e, just ODE


Well, that's a mixed message at best. Ceasefire Collapse is not an Ogre (Orange map) scenario. Suggesting options based on the material used as an example of what he doesn't want is fair game, IMHO.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Ptak
United States
Livermore
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The reason I suggested against overlays is because I don't want to spend five to ten minutes finding the overlays, then finding the exact hexes they need to be placed on.

Setting aside issues of bumping and misplacing them during play....

It works for a dedicated scenario that both players wish to play, but not for the rapid pickup games I'd like Ogre to accomplish.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
[1]  Prev «  9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13  Next »  [13] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.