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Subject: Ogre's missing something... rss

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Karl Gallagher
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Norsehound wrote:
My problem is for all of those units, open space and terrain, there isn't One General Scenario that outlines something like:

"Pick a map. Choose 5 overlays (that are not swamps) that are no more than 12 hexes large in total. Players alternate placing these obstacles on the board until all are placed.


Take a look at "Salvage" in Ogre Scenario Book 2 (available on Warehouse 23). That's about how it starts, though with three overlays each and smaller forces. It's built for 3-9 players so should cover your tourney needs.
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Keith Lewis
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HI Mike,

As an owner of a few ODE components, The biggest advantage of OGRE ODE is the openness(hope that's a word) to create scenarios, units and variants with out the boundaries that other game set in stone. OGRE has a canon set of rules but the fan based exceptions to the rules are more numerous than I'd have time to evem list in the rest of my life...if you look for them.

Visit the SJ Ogre Forum and use the search..if you have an idea probably someone has brought it up, if not post it ..even better.
You've gotten some great ideas for alternate CRT and again that's the beauty of the system.

Check some of FB pages as well as here at BGG for files to complement your OGRE experience, this might just win some of those friends over. There are some fan sites still up and running...Google them and the'll lead you to others google hasn't found. I believe at last count I had over 125 different scenarios stores on my Ogre Thumb drive with variant maps, units and rules galore.

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Mark Sockwell
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andreww wrote:

If you want to catch up on Ogre, buy the PDF of The Ogre Book. Lots of stuff in there.

The CRT is old school, but it *works*. The relationships between the various attack and defense strengths make for interesting choices. The stethoscope, John Browning's 1911 .45, gas stoves, some things get the job done so well that they don't get replaced. Well, the .45 is sort of being replaced, but you see the point.

Ceasefire Collapse is the only generic scenario, but in my opinion it's the least interesting. Ogre makes high asymmetrical scenarios lots of fun, and that's where the system works best. Casey Joneski and Operation Newspaper are great examples. I haven't tried the newest scenarios yet...



Browning's M2 would have been the better comparison. Nearly 100 years old, still going strong and nothing better out there.


Edit: Needless to say, I didn't read all of the other postings before I made mine.
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Mark Sockwell
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Here's my thought on "something's missing":

I first purchased OGRE as Metagaming #1 in 1977 when I was 15. It was the first game I ever bought, and the game that brought me back to wargaming in 2007 after a roughly 20 year hiatus (marriage, kids, career, not as much disposable income).

What surprised me at that time was the lack of expanding the system. Things were still PanEuro v Combine. I would have expected that after 30 years (at that time) there would have been SOME development of the other factions. I also fully expected to see many more scenarios available for play.

Yes, yes, yes, I know that OGRE is SJ's baby and always will be. But I wonder where it would be today if it had received more vigorous support throughout the 80s, 90s and 00s. I also play ASL and I've seen what it has become through the efforts of the third-party producers. While staying within the boundaries of the system, they have expanded what is available while providing top-notch (in most cases) products. It would have been nice to see this happen with OGRE.

All this being said, will I still play OGRE in 15 to 20 years (I'm 55 now)? Most likely, but what could it have been with the rabid fanbase it has.

Cheers,


Mark

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Brian McCue
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I, too, bought OGRE when it first came out, and its defining nature as a Microgame--small size, simple rules and, not least, low price--was part of its appeal. G.E.V. continued this, and I'll admit that I thought Shockwave was a bit much of a muchness. I wouldn't have minded more scenarios, though, and I thought that the game totally cried out for Ogre Design rules, which my friend turned out to have already dreamed up.
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Michael Ptak
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Quote:
What surprised me at that time was the lack of expanding the system. Things were still PanEuro v Combine. I would have expected that after 30 years (at that time) there would have been SOME development of the other factions. I also fully expected to see many more scenarios available for play.


I'm also feeling the lack of expansion on the other factions in the world of Ogre... and it's a little disappointing that all of the other major factions are just handwaved into using clones of the Paneuo/Combine templates. I was kind of disappointed to find this was the case with the Nihon units from Roy K's invasion of SF scenario... but I was happy to see that their MK-IIIs at least had extended ranges for the secondaries. A difference!

I'm eating up all of the Ogre variants and permutations, especially from other countries, but we're lacking orders of battles from other nations that I'm feeling is kind of missing.

I know though there's only so far you can push the diversity. A heavy tank is going to be a heavy tank, this game is too abstract for the minor distinctions. But at least telling us, for example, that the Isreali army never favored GEVs and instead fielded more Superheavies and similar for defense would be a good start.

The problem I'm seeing with diverse units is, well... too many of them are fan designed. I like the idea of the Ogre Sasquach (an Ogre-I with an artillery cannon), but it's unofficial. Missile tanks using Ogre missiles are also great idea. But there are too many fan units cluttering up what is possible and not a lot of new official things. I feel like some organization could be needed before really pushing forward with the future of Ogre.

This outcry to get a standardized scenario was part of this, to allow two players with their chosen army to get together and play, rather than shuffle through scenarios that have been in place for thirty years.

If I had the time I would totally sit down and design out new look and feel for distinct units of a new faction. In fact, if the guys at SJG want an article like that for their Ogerzine, I'd totally make it a priority. It's not like I'm a bad artist either, just not as great as the guys they commissioned for their recent interior art...
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Keith Lewis
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FAN BASED UNITS CLUTTERING UP? Who do you think has been keeping the dream alive for someone like you. Who are you to make such a statement? Before you go slinging comments like that maybe you should try putting up something, anything other than saying you DON'T HAVE THE TIME. Apparently you have the time for Star Wars Armada based on your badges. Sheesh!
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Jeff Saxton
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I think the overall simplicity and clean lines are a very large part of the continuing appeal of Ogre over the years. Grab it off the shelf, set it up, and play a full game in under an hour almost every single time.

"Mission Creep" can be a very bad thing as games get ever more complex, and you find you are continually having to learn new rules and units, instead of being able to just enjoy the game. Or even worse, you have to keep buying ALL the new expansions merely to keep up with the game or you'll be hopelessly left behind by other players.

As far as the "old school" CRT or its supposed limitations, if you play for more than an hour or so, the results quickly become ingrained and you seldom need it at all. Adding a new combat dynamic to the play style would just clutter it up with fancy dice or some other doo-dad you'd have to buy.
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Michael Ptak
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Misplaced Buckeye wrote:
FAN BASED UNITS CLUTTERING UP? Who do you think has been keeping the dream alive for someone like you. Who are you to make such a statement? Before you go slinging comments like that maybe you should try putting up something, anything other than saying you DON'T HAVE THE TIME. Apparently you have the time for Star Wars Armada based on your badges. Sheesh!


Maybe if you went looking, you would see the scenario format I made a little while ago that didn't seem to get traction (though not through lack of trying on my part). Or maybe the Scenario I contributed to the Ogre Designer edition. Maybe the record sheets I have in the files section (including obscure ogres I had to go digging for, like the four MK VII variants that have been put out over the years)?

The reason I put more effort into Armada now than Ogre is simply because I can get players for Armada a lot easier than I can for Ogre. Ogre may play a lot quicker but I've always found that it's a struggle to get it to the table- either through the bulk of the ODE edition or the fact that people want to play something else.

That doesn't stop me from putting effort into this on occasion though. Here I am with this thread wanting to put the effort into creating a custom/generic scenario to emulate most TT games by putting together and fielding armies of their choice. Or a new combat resolution system. Or wanting to put together an article for Ogrezine with my take on a new faction that I'm willing to create some artwork for.

...but I also don't want to be yet-another-fan-submitting-yet-another-unit. How many aircraft rules do we have? Cyberwalkers? How many people have put together stats for things like GEV missile tanks? I feel like the fan community has put forward a lot of units independently of one another so there is no standard of a particular unit. For instance if I put together a scenario featuring those GEV missile tanks, I'd have to specify which of Henry Cobb's missile GEVs to use in one article, or (more likely) I'd make up my own. And above all of that, have these units been actually tested or is this all wishful thinking by the creators? How can I tell?
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Keith Lewis
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Mea Cupla. I'm just a little edgy when I feel people dismiss all the pluses of OGre. Actually I don't dig much on BGG but more outside it. So What you're basically saying if I get you right is that you are looking for the uniformity of a historical OB and a defined set of environment. To get this you'd need an unifying factor and while SJG defends their canon rules the ability to play beyond them precludes all that unfortunately. SJG would have to dedicate the same control the George Lucas did with the Star Wars franchise and the books that were licensed and not allowed to stray from his vison which again we aren't talking fan based(Which is maybe why you get more Armada players but I think that if we had a series of Ogre movies we might get more too)..lol. Not to mention that with the movie enough variety exists that fan based creation really doesn't exist at least from what I've see in the groups I game with. I wish it could be so but I really don't see anyone dedicating the resources necessary.

Again Mea Culpa. I have looked to your posts (which actually BGG made it hard to find for mwe at least without your link) and see what you want, just son't know if you will ever get it.
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Michael Ptak
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I really don't think it's that hard with an official publication to introduce one or two new units and describe a faction's makeup with one or three scenarios.

For instance in my brain: Israelis. I'm already thinking of a take on the Ogre scenario, on the Ogre map, describing how yet-another-terrorist cult from that region decides to harass the Isreali army and runs afowl of a Golem. Spinkle in some heavy tanks, introduce one or two proprietary superheavies (maybe packing an ogre secondary with a pair of one-shot missiles instead of a standard layout), maybe one new artillery unit and a kind of dug-in terrain. Field against a bunch of Paneuropean units fed to the attackers by the russians. New showcase for a new kind of Ogre, a few new units, and some scenarios showing them off.

Maybe talk about the Chinese Dragon supertank that everyone thought was a cyber. What is that? I never found stats for it but we know it exists. What is it, how did it appear, when was it captured? That could be the center of an article and an accompanying scenario.

Best of all once these units are featured they have more legitimacy than the gobs of units we've all made up and thrown together on internet forums since the internet was a thing. Instead of saying which missile GEV we want to use, or having ambiguity on the "right" Medium tank, an Ogrezine or other article can give us a baseline of what is standard.

AS well, I'd like to see more entries in the Ogre universe about where things have gone and where they went. I'd like to see more than just Paneuro/Combine factions and battles. Tell us about Mars. Tell us about Nihon vs China.

All of these things Ogrezine can do, by the way. I'm looking forward to juicy, substantive articles that can help the game and the universe grow.
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Keith Lewis
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I agree that continuity would be nice and doing so with an order of battle would be nice. Perhaps the rulebook should be a 3 ring binder to allow for change and expansion. I have been creating a personal one but it's far from complete
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Mark Sockwell
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SJG's website has a page for The Last War. Where would the system be now if over the years faction packs with scenarios and counters had been released for Australia, the Arabian Confederation, the Chinese Hegemony and others had been released.
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Michael Ptak
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...probably nowhere if they were just released like all we have of the Nihon forces: reskins of the Combine/Paneuropean forces.

But we need something different. In the very least a superheavy could be a different beast, because surely the World came to different solutions on how to stop the combine Ogres. Paneurope had the economic might to fight beasts with beasts, but what about the other nations?

Maybe the splintered nations around India and China stole plans for rattler missiles, and someone in that area put enough into production that a new combat assault tank designed to fire pairs of them at attacking Ogres. Far away from the Combine-Paneuropean conflict, the other side of the globe has very different defense of the CP scenarios... with motorized infantry and rocket-based scatter artillery against groups of smaller cybertanks plowing through thick jungles... or cyberwalkers scaling the massive peaks of the Mahalangur mountain range against jump jet infantry and helicopters, in a place where lasers are useless with the peaks so close in.

THAT is something I would want to see. But can we expect innovation in this game that's forty years old with little in the way of new content in the recent decades?
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Brian McCue
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OK, let's say it's 1980 and I have Ogre and G.E.V., but that's it.

What would/did I want?
--More scenarios;
--Sets that did not have razor-thin counters that had to be cut out;
--Armored Personnel Carriers;
--Fortifications;
--Ogres Mark I, II, and IV, anyway
--A design-your-own-Ogre system;
--A secret damage system;
--A solitaire system;
--Additional maps;
--Mines
--A campaign game.

Some of these came out, sooner or later. (Two of them I wrote, and they appeared in Space Gamer; my fried did another, and it got rejected.) Some of them have not come out, and I still would like them.

Of note, I did not feel the need for multiple types of Missile Launcher beyond the original, nor did I ever really warm up to the cruise missiles and the laser towers.

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Michael Ptak
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There was once an old veteran gamer who frequented my FLGS before he passed away, and he said laser towers were the worst thing to happen to Ogre. I never got the cruise missile / laser tower thing myself (since they seem to directly counter one another and really removed the movement-attack portion of the game), but fortifications are interesting.

Laser towers and Artillery seem to be the only kinds of fixed installations in the game though, and while potent I didn't think they represented the kind of standard base defenses one would be setting up for fortified installations...

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Ken
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MAS01 wrote:
SJG's website has a page for The Last War. Where would the system be now if over the years faction packs with scenarios and counters had been released for Australia, the Arabian Confederation, the Chinese Hegemony and others had been released.


Perhaps right where it is not. Or perhaps dead under the weight of new rules and mechanics. Taking a relativity simple system and every year adding more too it. You don't have to look far to see the money Goliaths of games who's fan base is growing ever more satisfied.

Norsehound wrote:
But we need something different.


I like a lot of what you have to say. But I think I disagree with this. This seems like the current mentality of a lot of gamers. If there isn't something new and often the game is lacking. Yet Ogre has survived for years and is still being played.

- Do we need it? I don't think so, the game is fine and lots of fun.
- Do you and some other want it. Yes that is most likely true.
- Is the game fine without it. Absolutely it is!
- Will the game benefit from these additions? That is an unknown. It really depends on if these additions are adding complication and layers of rules and new mechanics or just new diversity. And is this new diversity really new or just changing thing up a little?

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I always saw the myriad fan made variations as being a bit of a PITA.

Additionally, when I see a single counter for a Heavy Tank, I don't see it as a lone tank, à la "Fury"; I see it as a platoon of tanks whose basic outline and utility is as a "Heavy". The actual breakdown of individual tanks in that unit may include two variations of a heavy tank, but the overall effect of the counter itself is as a whole, not as an individual.

As to there being no Chinese, Australian, etc, units. Even now, you have this lack of overall diversity in military procurement. As an example, forces allied with the U.S.A. tend to have Abrams, and forces allied with Russia tend to have T-90's or clones. Yes, there are some Leopards, Merkavas, Leclercs and Challengers or what-have-you out there; but the vast bulk of the world's military might stems from just two designs. Extend that into the future, and you see fewer and fewer countries making their own, and more just making upgraded clones of the "T" series or Abrams, etc.
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Regarding the OGRE CRT...I agree it is a simple odds ratio mechanic, however what I don't care for is it does in fact slow the flow of combat for me. In a game like OGRE, that can be a big deal for some people. I happen to be one. Some of us are more visually oriented than others who are more mathematically inclined for example. The CRT is more complicated to remember than other game mechanics. OGRE does not have smooth and exciting flow for some of us because there is the added step of converting the D6 result to the CRT resulting in slower game flow. It's awesome that most have no issue with this. They can look at the D6 that stopped rolling and say...that means a Disable! As someone who is more visually oriented I want to be able to simply figure my attack odds, and then pick up the appropriate dice and roll to hit and instantly see the results when the dice stop rolling without having to consult the CRT or from memory. This happens when using my FanMade OGRE AI CRT Dice. OGRE AI CRT Dice benefit players like myself, but are especially beneficial to new players who may be turned away for the reasons stated earlier. Imho, CRT Dice could only help and benefit OGRE by giving players both old and new options to play the game in a way that they can truly enjoy. It would also be more OGRE stuff SJGs could sell. Since I iterated my own take on OGRE CRT Dice and made some, I can't go back to playing OGRE without them. Since making them, everyone I have played OGRE with after trying them prefers using them...and they look good on the table top. They visually compliment the game. OGRE AI CRT Dice are my entry into the category for best OGRE CRT Dice. Try them and see for yourself. Maybe they will help others like they help me.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/128248274@N05/albums/721576873...
 
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Stephan Beal
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boardgameTK wrote:


Where are you getting those blank(?) dice? i'd love to make a set of these, but only have ugly blank wooden dice. They can be painted with water colors, but it's a pain in the butt to do.
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Michael Ptak
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Quote:
I like a lot of what you have to say. But I think I disagree with this. This seems like the current mentality of a lot of gamers. If there isn't something new and often the game is lacking. Yet Ogre has survived for years and is still being played.

- Do we need it? I don't think so, the game is fine and lots of fun.
- Do you and some other want it. Yes that is most likely true.
- Is the game fine without it. Absolutely it is!
- Will the game benefit from these additions? That is an unknown. It really depends on if these additions are adding complication and layers of rules and new mechanics or just new diversity. And is this new diversity really new or just changing thing up a little?


Here's the odd thing, while I'd like new units, I'm not willing to fully embrace an large roster of new ones. One or two units that are very generic are fine, but not a full list of variant units with minor tweaks.

For an example, lets say an Israeli nation. Their heavy tanks are identical in every way in stats to the Paneuro/Combine ones, but the look is different. Same with Infantry- they don't need "desert infantry" or some crazy permutation for permutation's sake. I suggested a superheavy in variation because really, apart from the Ogres, Superheavies are the smallest unit where we're going to see any details distinguished. I figured something more defensive would work.

Point being these units have a clear-cut purpose and function different from everything else, so that they don't feel like minor modifications for the sake of it. The Missile Crawler stood out against the Missile tanks and mobile artillery because it was much more powerful, operated on different rules than the other two long-range units, and had distinct ammunition that changed the performance of the unit once it fired. You will never confuse a missile crawler for a mobile howitzer by how they play. So it should be with a new addition to the game.

Then we have one (and only one) new wildcard unit that feels just as generic of an addition to the game as the missile crawlers. My proposal is the 2x Ogre missile unit, because it already supports mechanics in the game (the Ogre missile weapon, ammunition counts on units like the missile crawlers), and because it feels generic enough not to be something like not-another-gev-permutation like the Ogre Coalcynth or those missile GEVs I mentioned above.

For other nations, like india, thier order of battle could omit classic units entirely and be restricted only to a few special units. The Jump jet infantry may be India's only infantry selection because of how difficult the terrain is, so scenarios would force an Indian nation player to use that infantry whether or not it is the best selection.


I know that I was disappointed when Nihon turned out to be reskinned Combine, and was hoping at least for a new visual take on the same units. I feel being conservative about new unit (and map?) additions wouldn't hurt either, but that's where I'd like the game to go. I will say that the small unit selection makes the game easier and better to play, though I think new content would help show the game is actually growing and feel more alive.
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Brian McCue
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Norsehound wrote:
My proposal is the 2x Ogre missile unit, because it already supports mechanics in the game (the Ogre missile weapon, ammunition counts on units like the missile crawlers)...

I would have said "is supported by mechanics already in the game," but either way I see that as a key point. In Orge (and in fact in wargames generally) I prefer new things that are created by recombining existing mechanics than new things that require new rules.
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brianmccue wrote:
Norsehound wrote:
My proposal is the 2x Ogre missile unit, because it already supports mechanics in the game (the Ogre missile weapon, ammunition counts on units like the missile crawlers)...

I would have said "is supported by mechanics already in the game," but either way I see that as a key point. In Orge (and in fact in wargames generally) I prefer new things that are created by recombining existing mechanics than new things that require new rules.


That case kind of does require a new mechanic: record-keeping for the two missiles, since those can't be tracked on a conventional Ogre-style counter. If you've got more than one in play, you need a way to designate each counter such that you can keep track of which has how many missiles. So far only Ogres requires record sheets (or SHVY's if you're using that variant of SHVY... which i don't, because record keeping is not something i enjoy). Adding record sheets for non-Ogre units would make me gag :/.
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Jeff Saxton
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I'll just drop this here, from another Ogre discussion on this very website:

Ogre complexity?
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sgbeal wrote:
brianmccue wrote:
Norsehound wrote:
My proposal is the 2x Ogre missile unit, because it already supports mechanics in the game (the Ogre missile weapon, ammunition counts on units like the missile crawlers)...

I would have said "is supported by mechanics already in the game," but either way I see that as a key point. In Orge (and in fact in wargames generally) I prefer new things that are created by recombining existing mechanics than new things that require new rules.


That case kind of does require a new mechanic: record-keeping for the two missiles, since those can't be tracked on a conventional Ogre-style counter. If you've got more than one in play, you need a way to designate each counter such that you can keep track of which has how many missiles. So far only Ogres requires record sheets (or SHVY's if you're using that variant of SHVY... which i don't, because record keeping is not something i enjoy). Adding record sheets for non-Ogre units would make me gag :/.

I'd say that because the game already has record-keeping for Ogres, the record-keeping mechanic is not a new one. Liking (or disliking) it is a separate question.
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