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Subject: RinCon 2017 No-Ship Math Trade - Discussion Thread rss

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Michael Tunison
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This will serve as the official discussion thread for the 2017 RinCon math trade. I will not vouch for any of the other myriad of RinCon math trade threads which are bound to pop up all over BGG in the next three weeks. Seriously, it's the wild west out there - just stick to this one and you'll be fine.

Geeklist: Tucson RinCon 2017 No-Ship Math Trade
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Michael Tunison
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Just a quick reminder to anyone interested in participating, you have until tomorrow evening (9/20) to add or update offered items. There's a lot of excellent stuff in there, so don't miss out.
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Michael Tunison
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The deadlines for the offers and the want lists will be 9pm, not 8pm. I always try to get the time zone right but the tool still throws it off by an hour.
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Michael Tunison
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Time for those Want Lists to start rolling in and for all the new Math Traders to get to Step 4 and think "Sweet Jiminy alive, what have I gotten myself into!?"

Here are the tips I emailed out to everyone:

You all have from now until 9:00pm on Monday, Sept 25th to submit your official Want List. If you have any questions about this phase, don't hesitate to jump in to the discussion forum (right here!) and ask - plenty of folks are happy to help.

A few additional notes if you're new to this process:

1. After submitting your Wants, which is a two-step process, you will receive an email confirming they have been submitted. If you don't receive a confirmation geekmail from JeffyJeff, your list has NOT been submitted.

2. You are welcome to resubmit your list as many times as desired. I usually submit a preliminary list, then continue to tweak it and resubmit as desired until the deadline.

3. When it doubt, leave the boxes blank! Any box you check and submit is a commitment to follow through with the trade, even if you mess up and accidentally trade Yokohama for Yahtzee. If you're not sure about something, or decide you don't want to trade an item, leaving the associated boxes blank is the safest route. It's usually better to hold on to your item than be required to follow through on an undesirable trade.

4. The "Step 4" wall-of-check-boxes screen is intimidating, especially if you offered several items. The logic is fairly simple and it looks more complex than it really is, so just take your time and be careful. It's also a good idea to scroll to the bottom and save your updates regularly.

5. If you're a Firefox user, the add-on CheckBoxMate will save you a TON of time and clicking by allowing you to click on one box, then scroll across a whole row/column/section of them.

6. If you are offering cash equivalents (cash, paypal, gift certs, etc.), remember that you are NOT allowed to trade up in value. If you try to trade your $20 for someone's $30, you will go to the top of the naughty list. Right next to Gerry.

7. The "looser" you are with your wants, the more likely you are to get a trade, but keep in mind that the nature of math trades is such that you will often get the least-desired item in your list of wants (since the other more desirable items can likely help more trades happen overall). This being the case, make sure you would be happy with any trade you select - don't check a box unless you really want to trade for that item.

8. If you cannot fulfill a trade for any reason (for example, you can't make it to RinCon, you just sold the item on ebay, your cat pooped all over Finca again, etc.), simply submit a blank list for that item to ensure it will not trade. This also applies if you realize the condition of your item is notably different from what you originally described. Better to not trade than hand someone a crushed copy of Munchkin that you described as "Like New".
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Michael Tunison
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Also, the most confusing piece of the OLWLG tool is Duplicate Protection. Here are some notes I added earlier in the Math Trade List comments that I'll re-post here in case you missed them:

Duplicate Protection is super useful, but it does make the final "step 4" screen far more complicated to navigate. Fortunately, it's also completely optional. The idea behind it is this: I'm offering Connect Four and Rummikub and I REALLY want to trade for Checkers. Seventeen people are offering Checkers and I'd be happy with any of them, but if I offer each of my items against all the copies of Checkers, I could end up getting TWO copies of Checkers, and that's just too many Checkers! Duplicate Protection allows me to create a fake item named "Checkers" which singularly represents all 17 copies of real Checkers. I select Fake Checkers as my wanted trade for each of my items, and it will try to trade either of them for any of the real Checkers, but ensures I won't end up with two copies -- as soon as any trade is found in that group, it stops trying to find another one. If you only have 1 item you're offering, ignore all of this - you're fine. If you're offering multiple items and trying to trade them for multiple copies of the same game (but only really want one of them), this can help you out but it does turn your checkbox screen into a mess so spend some time getting familiar with it first. Or just ignore it and risk ending up with duplicate items which you'll trade/sell away later.
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Michael Tunison
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Anyone want to play a fun game of Most Check-Boxes?

My Step 4 page has 5,458
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Garrett
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That's impressive! I was thinking my ~1900 was a lot.
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Michael Tunison
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Yeah, my browser was really struggling to scroll up and down. Lots of offers, lots of wants, lots of extra boxes from Dupe Protection. Big fun mess
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Seth Jaffee
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I guess I'm happy I didn't get around to listing anything then!
 
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Gerry Daigle
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Dang Mike! I had 1849 I believe.
 
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Wil
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Looks like we're at 91% of wants submitted. Woohoo!

http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/mtusers.cgi?listid=229555

---

Mike,

The deadline states:

Deadline-Wants: Monday, September 25, 2017 8:00 PM PST

Based on that, I believe that's 9pm AZ/MST time.

Sound right?





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Michael Tunison
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Yep, I just sent out an email to everyone about the 9pm deadline. If you need to tweak your lists, you have 11 hours to make it happen. Also wanted to repost this here from the email:

-------
Important note: One thing that has the potential to cause issues with the final results (and require them to be manually adjusted and re-run) is arbitrage, which is trying to trade lower value cash/paypal/gift certificate items for higher value. Since there are so many offerings this time around for money, double-check your lists to make sure you're not trying to trade $20 for $30, as great of a trade as that would be. This rule only applies to money - you can certainly try to trade up in value for actual games as much as you want.
-------

I've never had to actually deal with an arbitrage issue. I think the nicest way to deal with it if it pops up is to manually adjust the want list for the item trying to trade up to remove just the desired higher value items. I've seen other Math Trades deal with this by completely blank out the offending item, or even all items by that user, but if it's a simple mistake (most likely scenario here), that feels too aggressive. BY just removing the specific desired items, everything else on the want list should still be valid and will allow that person to hopefully still get a trade.

Having said all that, I highly doubt this will be an issue but that check box matrix can get confusing so it's certainly not unthinkable to accidentally do this. Heck, I wouldn't be shocked if I did this somewhere in mine. My want list is a crazy disaster of boxes.
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John Morgan
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I am so surprised that OLWLG doesn't have a meta-tag to indicate that something is cash or cash equivalent (gift card, gift code, PayPal, etc.) That way it could warn about arbitrage.
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Gerry Daigle
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I think the issue is that there isn’t a consistency in the alt names used so the listing doesn’t know which would be money, geek Gold or any other use of a number in a listing
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Mike McCarthy
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1081 boxes and falling by the minute .....
 
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Curtis M
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Hagaf22 wrote:
I think the issue is that there isn’t a consistency in the alt names used so the listing doesn’t know which would be money, geek Gold or any other use of a number in a listing


There are buttons on the OLWLG that show you just PayPay, just GeekGold or just Gift Card listings so the system is already designed to uniquely find them. How it currently works with just marking trades between alt-items after the fact to be double checked seems to work pretty well though so I'm not sure if it really needs too much of a tweak.
 
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John Morgan
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tineyeit wrote:
Hagaf22 wrote:
I think the issue is that there isn’t a consistency in the alt names used so the listing doesn’t know which would be money, geek Gold or any other use of a number in a listing


There are buttons on the OLWLG that show you just PayPay, just GeekGold or just Gift Card listings so the system is already designed to uniquely find them. How it currently works with just marking trades between alt-items after the fact to be double checked seems to work pretty well though so I'm not sure if it really needs too much of a tweak.
'

Yes it is true what you said about filters. But there are CHECKS for other potentially undesirable conditions, such as selecting a trade for $25 when you would take $20. (Assuming that alt names are properly used.) A "cash equivalent" metatag (like alt names) could be easily added. The benefit of flagging "cash equivalent" to "cash equivalent" trades, I believe, is of value. Now I have to admit, if the poster doesn't use proper "alt names" or other metadata, then none of this works.

I am not trying to pick a fight or troll. But, I have never understood this kind of response. I would understand a response like, "I would HATE it if such a feature was added." But what you said is roughly, this is not needed because some other (less automatic) feature can be used for roughly the same purpose. This is a bit like saying why use seat belts when we have airbags.
 
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Garrett
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Wow that's a lot of trades! Well done everyone!
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Wil
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shoegoo wrote:
Wow that's a lot of trades! Well done everyone!


Yeah, no kidding. Great to see!

Thanks for making this happen Mike! (and everyone!)
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Ed Farias
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Yeah, awesome. For my first Math Trade, I am really impressed and super happy with everything I got.

So now we just contact people one on one to setup? I owe one person some paypal, just contact them and get their paypal? That's all?
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Michael Tunison
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Yep, you can actually use the links within the OLWLG results page to set up an official BGG trade. This is a bit weird since we're doing them in person, but it does allow you build up your trade rating. And then just start geekmailing folks to find out how they want money or where they want to meet up.

I ended up with trades in or out with like 20 different people so I'll be busy! Fortunately, I know most of them so that helps.
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Michael Tunison
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Also, just to repost here, I'll try to grab a table for the semi-official math trade exchange to hopefully make this a bit easier.

Saturday from 1:00 - 1:30pm
Upstairs landing near the vendor hall entrance (I'm thinking over near the bar to the left might be a bit more out of the way, but I'll need to see how tables are arranged up there)

I'll try to have a little sign for "Math Trade Exchange" or something like that. It's not a very big area. I'm guessing most of us will be gaming in this general space anyway.
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Ed Farias
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MikeTuna wrote:
Also, just to repost here, I'll try to grab a table for the semi-official math trade exchange to hopefully make this a bit easier.

Saturday from 1:00 - 1:30pm
Upstairs landing near the vendor hall entrance (I'm thinking over near the bar to the left might be a bit more out of the way, but I'll need to see how tables are arranged up there)

I'll try to have a little sign for "Math Trade Exchange" or something like that. It's not a very big area. I'm guessing most of us will be gaming in this general space anyway.


I'll be there.
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Michael Tunison
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And if anyone's curious, my final check box count was 7,896
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Sean T
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MikeTuna wrote:
Also, just to repost here, I'll try to grab a table for the semi-official math trade exchange to hopefully make this a bit easier.

Saturday from 1:00 - 1:30pm
Upstairs landing near the vendor hall entrance (I'm thinking over near the bar to the left


The upstairs tables tend to fill up quickly, especially on Sat, but there will be quite a few extra overflow tables downstairs in Sabino. We could probably schedule a table for you in Sabino for an hour or so. And you won't have to lug games upstairs ☺
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