Keith Carter
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When the 1st edition of Ogre was published the defender in the classic Mark III attack scenario got 35 attack strength of armor (instead of 12 armor units) to go with the 20 squads of infantry. This meant that a GEV cost 2 and a heavy tank (HVY) cost 4 making a GEV twice as cost effective. Imagine playing the Mark III Attack scenario with a defending force of 17 armor units (16 GEV, 1 MSL) whereas the heavy tank approach would be 9 armor units (8 HVY, 1 MSL). Now reduce the heavy tank movement from 3 to 2 and increase GEV movement from 4/3 to 4/4.

This paying for armor by attack strength mistake* was corrected in the 2nd and subsequent editions by having the defense choose 12 armor units. I do wonder though if an aspect of that by attack strength issue did not get changed. For the Mark III Attack scenario a complete defense victory requires the CP and at least 30 points of attack strength survive. Since a HVY provides 4 to the GEVs 2 then the HVY is twice as cost effective as the GEV. In an all GEV defense the defender starts with 44 attack factors (20 INF + 24 from GEVs) and can only lose 14 attack factors before a complete defense victory is no longer possible. In an all HVY defense the defender starts with 68 attack factors (20 INF + 48 from HVYs) and can lose 38 attack factors before a complete defense victory is no longer possible.

So has an aspect of a “bug” from Ogre 1st edition survived all the way to the 6th edition in the complete defensive victory condition? Should the complete defensive victory condition be converted to 30 victory points (each INF squad = 2, GEV, MSL, HVY = 6, HWZ = 12) for the Mark III Attack and 50 victory points for the Mark V Attacks scenario? Most of the scenarios in the Ogre Designer’s Edition use victory points to determine victory or victory level. Only the basic scenario and the Casey Joneski scenarios use attack strength.

*”Mistake” is Steve’s term. See The Ogre Book second edition, ANOTHER #@**$%$?!! OGRE ARTICLE, page 23, left column, second to last paragraph. The term “bug” is used on page 23 in the last paragraph of the right column.
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David Rock

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Bounder wrote:

So has an aspect of a “bug” from Ogre 1st edition survived all the way to the 6th edition in the complete defensive victory condition? Should the complete defensive victory condition be converted to 30 victory points (each INF squad = 2, GEV, MSL, HVY = 6, HWZ = 12) for the Mark III Attack and 50 victory points for the Mark V Attacks scenario? Most of the scenarios in the Ogre Designer’s Edition use victory points to determine victory or victory level. Only the basic scenario and the Casey Joneski scenarios use attack strength.


So, if I understand your question correctly, it boils down to "should attack strength be replaced by victory points?"

I would not necessarily call that "an aspect of the 1st edition bug," but I do think it's likely correct to make the change that you suggest. Using VPs instead of Attack points is more leveling. I have to admit I've never noticed the usage of attack points before, for two reasons:
1. everything else is by VPs, so I've always read it as VP anyway
2. I've _never_ had an Ogre game be that unbalanced that it was ever that good of a defensive win to even count the remaining units in the first place. :-)

I guess the real question is how much different would counting by VPs be? Is that easier for the defense, harder, or the same?
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Niko
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granitepenguin wrote:
Bounder wrote:

So has an aspect of a “bug” from Ogre 1st edition survived all the way to the 6th edition in the complete defensive victory condition? Should the complete defensive victory condition be converted to 30 victory points (each INF squad = 2, GEV, MSL, HVY = 6, HWZ = 12) for the Mark III Attack and 50 victory points for the Mark V Attacks scenario? Most of the scenarios in the Ogre Designer’s Edition use victory points to determine victory or victory level. Only the basic scenario and the Casey Joneski scenarios use attack strength.


So, if I understand your question correctly, it boils down to "should attack strength be replaced by victory points?"

I would not necessarily call that "an aspect of the 1st edition bug," but I do think it's likely correct to make the change that you suggest. Using VPs instead of Attack points is more leveling. I have to admit I've never noticed the usage of attack points before, for two reasons:
1. everything else is by VPs, so I've always read it as VP anyway
2. I've _never_ had an Ogre game be that unbalanced that it was ever that good of a defensive win to even count the remaining units in the first place. :-)

I guess the real question is how much different would counting by VPs be? Is that easier for the defense, harder, or the same?
Just wanted to echo the sentiment that it never came down to that condition in my games.
That may just be because both me and my opponents tend to think and play in terms of win/lose rather than the gradual conditions the scenario gives though.
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Keith Carter
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granitepenguin wrote:

So, if I understand your question correctly, it boils down to "should attack strength be replaced by victory points?"

I would not necessarily call that "an aspect of the 1st edition bug," but I do think it's likely correct to make the change that you suggest. Using VPs instead of Attack points is more leveling. I have to admit I've never noticed the usage of attack points before, for two reasons:
1. everything else is by VPs, so I've always read it as VP anyway
2. I've _never_ had an Ogre game be that unbalanced that it was ever that good of a defensive win to even count the remaining units in the first place. :-)

I guess the real question is how much different would counting by VPs be? Is that easier for the defense, harder, or the same?


Yes, if the unit efficiency disparity created by using strength factors needs fixing then replacing it with victory points would be the way I would go. Like the posts before this one have mentioned the complete defense victory is rare, maybe never seen. Changing from strength points to victory points would have almost but not quite zero effect on game outcomes. That is why I titled the thread as a "does it exist" rather than "should it be changed." I thought the remaining unit efficiency disparity was interesting from a design history point of view more than I was concerned that it needed to be changed.

I do wonder now, given the rarity of a complete defense victory, how the level came to be set at 30 strength points for a Mark III and 50 for a Mark V. The other end of the victory condition scale, the complete OGRE victory, while not common, has not been rare either. Was the complete defense victory condition set looking at the results of the hundreds of playtest games? I notice that it requires preserving a little more than half the starting force, perhaps that goal is what drove setting the strength point survival requirements. Then again the surviving attack strength requirement just happens to be 10 times the mark level of the Ogre. Mark III = 30. Mark V = 50. Who know? How victory conditions ended up as they have is probably lost in time.
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Stephan Beal
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granitepenguin wrote:
... I have to admit I've never noticed the usage of attack points before...


Yes you have: the core Ogre scenarios use Attack Points to limit how many units may be placed in the "front area" of the map. IIRC the Basic Scenario limits front area defenders, at setup-time, to 20 "attack strength points".
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David Rock

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sgbeal wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:
... I have to admit I've never noticed the usage of attack points before...


Yes you have: the core Ogre scenarios use Attack Points to limit how many units may be placed in the "front area" of the map. IIRC the Basic Scenario limits front area defenders, at setup-time, to 20 "attack strength points".


That's a different discussion, though. That only affects initial placement, not overall value of the selected force. I am talking only about attack points as an end condition for determining victory level being what I never noticed before. The former is in your face every time you set up, the latter is rarely seen because it almost never happens.
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Steve Jackson
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Bounder wrote:
I do wonder though if an aspect of that by attack strength issue did not get changed.


Good forensic speculation. I do not recall any details, myself, but opening the rulebook and looking at the way it's expressed, I think you're probably right. I don't think I should mess with it at this late date, though.
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