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Subject: Just received my Kickstarter - not very good I'm afraid rss

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StevenE Smooth Sailing...
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Bullet dodged... poor soft droopy planes.

I would not have been happy.
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Nigel Heather
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DaveKitcat wrote:
Hmm, yes I'll certainly hold off painting until I'm sure they are going to keep their shape. The Great War minis painted up very nicely, but they definitely were a harder plastic.

Please do post details about the transfers/water slides that you end up using.


Domsdecals

http://domsdecals.com/epages/81fc44d0-907b-42a4-9f72-8d3238c...

Type B for upper wing and A1 for fuselage.

http://domsdecals.com/epages/81fc44d0-907b-42a4-9f72-8d3238c...

For accuracy should use wide band for fuselage sides and narrow band on top surfaces but I'll probably use the thick band on both fuselage and upper wing.

Cheers,

Nigel



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Stephen Harper
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Wow, this is very, very depressing. And the game was so expensive. Although I play most of my games via VASSAL PBEM, I like to occasionally pull out one of my C&C games (Ancients, Napoleonics, Great War, Tricorne), set it up, and play some solitaire, as I delight in how the games look on my table. If, for BoB, the plane models are in such sorry shape, no way can I put this on the table and enjoy the spectacle. Truly disappointing.

The broken bayonets thing with Great War didn't bother me. Having grown up as a youngster building models, I just worked slowly and used sprue cutters, and had only a handful of broken bayonets. So it was no big deal. I even mounted the figures on acrylic stands with magnets, per a brilliant idea of someone on BGG, which looked really good. But this, with so many (maybe, haven't received the game yet) of the pieces severely mis-shapen......

Thanks, Gary, for the reference to Tumbling Dice. I will have to look into buying a set for this game.
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David Groves
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It's poor show when gamers are looking to buy and replace the plastic core component of a game from a manufacturer that specialises in plastic.

Not as pleasing to the eye by far but we might as well had wooden blocks with pictures of our favourite WW2 planes on. At least the layout on the board would have looked more professional and not like something bought from a local £ (pounds) shop.
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Nigel Heather
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David Groves wrote:
It's poor show when gamers are looking to buy and replace the plastic core component of a game from a manufacturer that specialises in plastic.

Not as pleasing to the eye by far but we might as well had wooden blocks with pictures of our favourite WW2 planes on. At least the layout on the board would have looked more professional and not like something bought from a local £ (pounds) shop.


Even if the models had been excellent I had it in the back of my mind to make some wooden blocks like what was used in real RAF operations rooms.

I was going to get a few games under my belt to see whether I like the game enough to put in the extra effort.

Cheers,

Nigel
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Terence Burnett
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I haven’t received mine and I’m not looking forward to it anyway.
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Greg Love
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Haven't received mine yet either, but if any Aussies / Kiwis get theirs, please let us know, thanks.
 
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Alastair Jack
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I've added some thoughts and a few photos on my blog...

[url]https://wargaminggallimaufry.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/battle-o...]

I've mixed feelings...as a war game the figures are very poor , especially coming from a company whose job is to make figures! But as a strategic boardgame I'm not sure I was expecting finely sculpted table top figures...maybe something more like the tanks etc in a game like Memoir 44. Overall, the figures are poor, the map etc is good and fingers crossed the game itself is fun.
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Nigel Heather
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alastairj wrote:
I've added some thoughts and a few photos on my blog...

[url]https://wargaminggallimaufry.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/battle-o...]

I've mixed feelings...as a war game the figures are very poor , especially coming from a company whose job is to make figures! But as a strategic boardgame I'm not sure I was expecting finely sculpted table top figures...maybe something more like the tanks etc in a game like Memoir 44. Overall, the figures are poor, the map etc is good and fingers crossed the game itself is fun.


I do share some of your sentiments.

The card components are excellent, light and day better than the original.

The plastic components are much poorer than I had been expecting. Part of this is that as a wargamer I am familiar with other products that PSC sell - their range of 15mm figures and vehicles are excellent.

As PSC specialise in plastic figures (the clue is in the name) I was expecting similar quality, and the CGI pictures they peppered their campaign with suggested great things. What I actually received were some of the worst board game plastic figures ever - the mouldings are not great, but not the worst but the condition is dreadfull.

A lot of this might be down to packing. There is a lot of comparison with Memoir 44. Similar plastic and some of the accuracy is terrible. You do get the odd bent gun barrel but generally they are all good. When you open a Memoir 44 game or expansion you will find the main models (tanks, guns) in a blister pack with individual compartments for the models. This protect them well in transit.

By comparison, the BoB planes were thrown together in two zip lock bags (British and German) which was in the centre well of the box (the well is about 6" x 11" x 2.5" with no compartments). In that well is also two packs of cards, and the dice. So you can imagine that in transit these parts are all free to move arround and bash into each other. The boxes are carried so they are in a vertical position on the long edge so you can imagine the models on the bottom with the packs of cards sat on top of them.

PSC have come a cropper with poor packing before (The Great War) and it doesn't look like they have learned anything from it.

The 4 kickstarter exclusive planes were just thrown in the packing box along with the retail game with no other packing. So on some occasions those models were probably sat squashed under the full weight of the retail game - I'm surprise they were in a much poorer condition.

Cheers,

Nigel
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Nigel Heather
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ON A MORE POSITIVE NOTE

I have just tried the 'hot water' treatment on one of the worst moulds - a He-111.

For those not familiar with the process:

Heat water to boiling in a kettle, microwave etc. and put in a suitable container that you can drip the model with

Also have a similar sized container with cold water

Dip the model in the hot water for 10-20 seconds (time is not crucial, you can't really over-do it and you can always retry if it didn't work well enough). Be careful not to burn yourself, use pliers, tweezers, or hold by an unaffected part that won't be dipped.

Remove from hot water - for minor bends you will probably find that they have magically resumed their proper shape (thermo-plastics have a memory effect). But on more severe bends you might need to manipulate into the right shape - the plastic will be soft and pliable for a short time - but not enough that you can do damage so don't worry about that.

When happy with shape, dip model into the cold water to fix it.

If it didn't quite work you can repeat until you get a satisfactory result.

Here are BEFORE and AFTER photos of one of my worst models

BEFORE



AFTER



Hope you find this useful and a little reassuring,

Nigel
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Dave Daffin
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If you dip them in soapy boiling hot water, then they'll also be ready for you to paint afterwards!
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Nigel Heather
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Dave in Ledbury wrote:
If you dip them in soapy boiling hot water, then they'll also be ready for you to paint afterwards!


Good tip.

I would also add that I am going to leave it a couple of weeks before I paint to make sure the shape really is fixed.

In the past, on rare occasions, I have see 'fixed' models start to bend back out of shape but not as severely. When this has happened another round of hot water treatment usually fixes them for good.

Cheers,

Nigel
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Patrick Heron
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nheather wrote:
Dave in Ledbury wrote:
If you dip them in soapy boiling hot water, then they'll also be ready for you to paint afterwards!


Good tip.

I would also add that I am going to leave it a couple of weeks before I paint to make sure the shape really is fixed.

In the past, on rare occasions, I have see 'fixed' models start to bend back out of shape but not as severely. When this has happened another round of hot water treatment usually fixes them for good.

Cheers,

Nigel


Hi Nigel - to stop them bending back you should just need to dip them in really really cold water afterwards

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David Groves
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nheather wrote:
David Groves wrote:
It's poor show when gamers are looking to buy and replace the plastic core component of a game from a manufacturer that specialises in plastic.

Not as pleasing to the eye by far but we might as well had wooden blocks with pictures of our favourite WW2 planes on. At least the layout on the board would have looked more professional and not like something bought from a local £ (pounds) shop.


Even if the models had been excellent I had it in the back of my mind to make some wooden blocks like what was used in real RAF operations rooms.

I was going to get a few games under my belt to see whether I like the game enough to put in the extra effort.

Cheers,

Nigel


Actually, now you've said that you wouldn't even need stickers just enough blocks to distinguish Brits from German and bombers from fighters. I might have enough spare CCN blocks, Red for Brits Blue for German fighters and another colour for German bombers.
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Nigel Heather
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David Groves wrote:
nheather wrote:
David Groves wrote:
It's poor show when gamers are looking to buy and replace the plastic core component of a game from a manufacturer that specialises in plastic.

Not as pleasing to the eye by far but we might as well had wooden blocks with pictures of our favourite WW2 planes on. At least the layout on the board would have looked more professional and not like something bought from a local £ (pounds) shop.


Even if the models had been excellent I had it in the back of my mind to make some wooden blocks like what was used in real RAF operations rooms.

I was going to get a few games under my belt to see whether I like the game enough to put in the extra effort.

Cheers,

Nigel


Actually, now you've said that you wouldn't even need stickers just enough blocks to distinguish Brits from German and bombers from fighters. I might have enough spare CCN blocks, Red for Brits Blue for German fighters and another colour for German bombers.


The blocks would need to indicate the British Group and the German Luftflotte numbers as the counter needs to be matched up with the sets of cards being held by the players.

To ease gameplay it would be best if the blocks were different colours.

In the film The Battle of Britain the Squadron Leader takes the raw recruit (Simon) up for some training. Quote from the film

"Hello Rabbit Leader - thought you might come in from the sun!"

So if there is a Rabbit Leader, that suggests there must be a Rabbit Flight or Squadron. So you could use these





Cheers,

Nigel
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Alastair Jack
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Love the Rabbits...much better than some of the models!
 
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Hi Nigel

Perhaps numbered cards in stands would help mark out the correct grouping just like the table in the control centre. I would really want those croupier sticks. now.

Of course, the rabbits would be more fun.
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Little Idiot
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Dave in Ledbury wrote:
If you dip them in soapy boiling hot water, then they'll also be ready for you to paint afterwards!


If you dip them in soapy boiling hot water with a tea bag then you can... I'll get my coat.
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Barry Miller
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nheather wrote:
Here are BEFORE and AFTER photos of one of my worst models

BEFORE



AFTER


Hmmm... when I first saw the subject of this thread, I would've expected to see the 2nd image as an example of a poor quality mini... not as an example of one that's been fixed!

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Nigel Heather
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bgm1961 wrote:

Hmmm... when I first saw the subject of this thread, I would've expected to see the 2nd image as an example of a poor quality mini... not as an example of one that's been fixed!



I think that is a little harsh, and maybe the camera doesn't do it justice. Remember that these are small scale (1:300) and are gaming figures not display models.

They are made of a softish plastic which makes them robust for gameplay. I do a lot of table top wargaming and once you get down to 6mm (1:285) and below the models do tend to look less realistic.

Comparisons have been made with Memoir 44 - I'd say that once they have been straightened out they are at least as good as Memoir 44 miniatures (same sort of plastic too).

Cheers,

Nigel
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Martin S
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David Groves wrote:
My only real concern is that I love The Great War and wonder if this is the finish of PSC as a game company and so no more TGW. Should this be the case perhaps Richard Borg could find another supplier to complete the series.


100% agree Dave. Will apparently is one for "sticking his head in the sand" and that's certainly true of his KS management. Not a good way to run a successful business as I'm sure PSC Games are about to find out to their cost.
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nheather wrote:

I think that is a little harsh, and maybe the camera doesn't do it justice. Remember that these are small scale (1:300) and are gaming figures not display models.

They are made of a softish plastic which makes them robust for gameplay. I do a lot of table top wargaming and once you get down to 6mm (1:285) and below the models do tend to look less realistic.

Comparisons have been made with Memoir 44 - I'd say that once they have been straightened out they are at least as good as Memoir 44 miniatures (same sort of plastic too).

Cheers,

Nigel


You do not have to apologize for PSC Nigel. The quality of these planes speak for themselves. That, with the useless model speaks volumes about PSC as a Kickstarter campaign manager.

We as consumers are paying full MRSP for these games straight from the manufacturer. They make a TON of money off of these campaigns being able to take out the middle man AND charge full prices for the games (even with stretch goals already calculated in). When something like this pops up, consumers should be rightfully pissed off. I payed over $130 to get the game and the mat and finding out I have been overpaying for a flawed game really gets my goat. I should know by now having backed a TON of KS campaigns, and ultimately not getting value for money out of a a good number of them, that paying over $100 for ANY game is a waste of money (ok...Kingdom Death is an exception. That KS was incredible. But I digress). This one just puts a cherry on the crap ice cream sundae. There is no excuse for PSC to allow these games to reach consumers in such condition. It's obvious that there was no QA check on these games.

-Ski
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Teamski wrote:

You do not have to apologize for PSC Nigel. The quality of these planes speak for themselves. That, with the useless model speaks volumes about PSC as a Kickstarter campaign manager.

We as consumers are paying full MRSP for these games straight from the manufacturer. They make a TON of money off of these campaigns being able to take out the middle man AND charge full prices for the games (even with stretch goals already calculated in).


Let us not overstate things. The profit margins. especially when all the other fixed costs are factored in, are not particularly large, given the small scale of production. I am as disappointed as anyone in PSC's inability to produce a single game with the quality of components and packaging as was regularly achieved by competing manufacturers, and my patience with their KS campaigns is probably at an end. However, I really doubt they are "making book" on these things. More likely, in an effort to keep these games below the $100 retail mark and still profitable, PSC is making unwise choices of economy both in terms of producing and packaging the plastic figures, and in their general staffing.
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Craig Foster
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Of course everybody is free to react to this and any game in any way they choose. However, I am always shocked by the vindictiveness displayed by too many wargamers.

I submit we should want these companies to ultimately succeed. We should send them clear messages about what consumers expect and what issues are created by disappointing these expectations. Over time, those who can meet expectations in a (for them) cost effective fashion will flourish. Others who cannot, will flounder and, in the end, perhaps perish. But we want more, not less, quality wargame producers producing games of different types, subjects and styles. To excitedly anticipate their financial pain and even demise, to actively undermine their chances of success, seems short sighted and self-destructive. Likewise, claims of the vast wealth generated by the production and sale of wargames seems beyond fanciful, especially over time.

I suggest we wait for our versions to arrive and judge for ourselves. Oh, we might play the game too before we reach a final conclusion. Then a number of us can post, reflecting various expectations, experiences, and preferences. This game may be rated by the community a 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 - whatever. So be it. But letting the first, loudest voice drive the herd better belongs in the animal kingdom.
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David Groves
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Achtung_Panzer10 wrote:
David Groves wrote:
My only real concern is that I love The Great War and wonder if this is the finish of PSC as a game company and so no more TGW. Should this be the case perhaps Richard Borg could find another supplier to complete the series.


100% agree Dave. Will apparently is one for "sticking his head in the sand" and that's certainly true of his KS management. Not a good way to run a successful business as I'm sure PSC Games are about to find out to their cost.


Hi Martin

Frankly, I'm amazed that a renowned model making company would have allowed these things to go out of the door for the sake of their own reputation.

I play games and do not make models so these things will never see a coat of paint. The fact that the German transfers (for stands /plane, I'm not sure which) are not accurate bothers me not. If this game had been marketed by a toy company I might even have shrugged off the state of the playing pieces (although I'd still not be impressed or happy with them) but PCS is a model making concern. Even the planes in Axis and Allies have straight wings and A&A is just a more advanced version of RISK with tons of little pieces but still all produced well.

I rest my case.
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