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Subject: Did this duel end in a draw? rss

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Eric Anderson
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The other day, a friend and I were playing the Mark III Duel scenario from Ogre Sixth Edition. At the end, his Ogre was completely immobile. He had the main battery and all anti-personnel weapons remaining. My Ogre had movement of 2, and only anti-personnel weapons remaining.

So I could not win, since ramming only damages treads. And he could not win, because I could just stay out of range of his immobile Ogre. So as far as we could tell, the game ended in a draw.

What do you think?

(by the way, I tried to go on the sjgames forums to get an official answer, but I had trouble registering for their site)
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David Valenze
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I would definitely call that a draw.
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Rolando Mejia
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Seems like a draw to me, but in my opinion the moving OGRE have the advantage and is the strategic (and real) winner, as an immobile OGRE is not just easy picking for conventional forces (GEVs and Missile tanks) but also a cruise missile and can be captured.

A moving OGRE, even a slowly moving one, can escape to friendly lines or hide.

If anything compare to a need to achieve an objective, the moving OGRE can still crush a command post or reach the objective.
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David Rock

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Yes, that's a draw; neither side won or lost.

Incidentally, this is a very common outcome and part of why it's interesting. It's possible to actually win, but you have to think about your movements to pull it off. Brute-force charging in almost always ends up in a draw.
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Martin Gallo
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In som scenario's an immobile Ogre is the loser (the scavenger teams come in and finish it off).
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Jeff Saxton
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After all, gas can is my middle name. Eh, not really.
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I'd say the Ogre that could move was the marginal winner. It can get off the board, and while slow, it can escape. The immobile Ogre is easier pickings.
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David Rock

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Mack_me_Bucko wrote:
I'd say the Ogre that could move was the marginal winner. It can get off the board, and while slow, it can escape. The immobile Ogre is easier pickings.


In the context of the scenario, though, it's a draw. In a larger context, it's arguable that someone else can come back and clean up later, but it's just as possible that a vulcan can come and repair/tow the immobile ogre.

Don't over-think it :-)
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Eric Anderson
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Thanks for the responses!
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wolf90 (Drew)
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Interesting dilemma.

I agree with both options presented. From a strict viewpoint, neither Ogre truly holds the field, and thus it is a draw. That said, an immobile Ogre is much less of a threat than a mobile one (even one without guns), and thus I'd say the mobile Ogre earned a pyrrhic victory, if not an actual one.
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David Rock

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FWIW, I found Ogre Duel to be the hardest scenario to win out of everything that's available in the new Computer version. I think I played to 4 draws before working out how to actually win. Things are just too tight when it's a straight-up slugfest.
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T K
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In the context of the scenario it seems there should be some acknowledgment this was a marginal victory of some sort or degree for the OGRE that had more tread units remaining.

Maybe have some sort of victory declaration other than a draw, such as "Pyrric Victory" as Drew mentioned...or "marginal Victory" spelled with a small case m....lol. But seriously folks, they could add something to highlight this small but noteworthy achievement. In a scenario like this, as close as it usually is, I would say such an addition to the Victory Conditions would compliment it and be noteworthy.

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Keith Lewis
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Would it be a safe statement that could be worked into the computer's victory computations that a remaining immobile Ogre( no other units existing for that side) constitutes an immediate marginal victory for the opponent with the pop up to accept the victory or toy with the Ogre to complete destroy it?
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Jeff Saxton
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After all, gas can is my middle name. Eh, not really.
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Similar to that, last time I played face-to-face, we did the scenario "Gauntlet". Victory conditions state when the Ogre is immobilized, game over. But for fun, I asked if we could play it down to the bitter end. It actually took a long time to strip the Ogre down, and I lost a lot of infantry ...
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David Rock

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Misplaced Buckeye wrote:
Would it be a safe statement that could be worked into the computer's victory computations that a remaining immobile Ogre( no other units existing for that side) constitutes an immediate marginal victory for the opponent with the pop up to accept the victory or toy with the Ogre to complete destroy it?


It depends on one very important factor: can any of the units fire at the Ogre without any chance for retaliation?

For example, if they have GEVs left that can drive in, shoot, and get back out of range; or SHVYs/MSLs that can park at a safe distance, then yes. If the remaining units have to take a chance on getting shot, then no.

Again, don't think too broadly about this. The scenarios are played in a vacuum; what "might happen later" is irrelevant to the victory conditions.
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Eric Anderson
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boardgameTK wrote:
In the context of the scenario it seems there should be some acknowledgment this was a marginal victory of some sort or degree for the OGRE that had more tread units remaining.


I like this idea.

This was the first time we played a scenario other than Mark III Attacking. Since there's a results table for Mark III Attacking with a range of results in between Total Ogre Victory and Total Defense Victory, I was kind of surprised that there wasn't also a results table for Mark III Duel. Next time I will have to be bit more strategic to score that total destruction .
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Cat O\'Mighty
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The one that could still move didn't lose by as much as the immobile one lost ^,^
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Keith Lewis
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That as the reason for the statement "...no other units existing for that side" I should have been a little plainer and said no offensive units.
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Jeremy Fridy
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Sounds like the setup for a sweet follow-up scenario where conventional forces try to move in to finish off the immobilized Ogre or to protect it.
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Eric Anderson
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Freitag wrote:
Sounds like the setup for a sweet follow-up scenario where conventional forces try to move in to finish off the immobilized Ogre or to protect it.


Ooh, that's good! We may have to try that!
 
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Martin Gallo
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Years ago some friends played a campaign of the Mechwarrior Clix game where after the scenario the winner had some time to pick over the battlefield for metal and other resources. It sounded like a lot of fun (I was never able to play because of schedule issues) but it changes the way you play games when dying to the last man costs a LOT for the next game.

Most Ogre games go down to the last unit. I never mind this because it is more game than simulation. Fun times!
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David Rock

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martimer wrote:
Years ago some friends played a campaign of the Mechwarrior Clix game where after the scenario the winner had some time to pick over the battlefield for metal and other resources. It sounded like a lot of fun (I was never able to play because of schedule issues) but it changes the way you play games when dying to the last man costs a LOT for the next game.

Most Ogre games go down to the last unit. I never mind this because it is more game than simulation. Fun times!


In the same vein, one of the things my friends and I used to do a lot is a combined Breakthrough/Raid combo where the results of Breakthrough directly affect what's available for Raid. It always felt like a logical pairing.
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