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Subject: Clarification on destroyed-bridge hexes? rss

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Vladimir Filipović
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Hi! I've had some confusion about section 13.02.2 in the ODE rulebook, and I was hoping someone could clear it up.


"GEVs can no longer cross the river surface in that hex."

That part had me most confused in combination with the rest of the section ("but… they can get out onto land, come back and traverse it as a swamp if they want?") till I saw this post which seems to clarify that as basically just "GEVs don't get their water-going road bonus". Am I getting that part right?


"For movement purposes, all units treat that hex as the worse of swamp or rubble."

As far as I see, rubble is never worse. So can I understand this as just "movement as in swamp"?

Is it also supposed to mean Ogres, SHVYs and Marines don't submerge? Does it mean the hex counts as a piece of land for purposes of GEVs having to stop at water/land boundary? I would imagine "yes" to both, but it's hard to be certain with all this very specific phrasing.


Given that "For defense purposes, the hex is rubble", but rubble and swamp have the same defense effects, it almost seems like all three of those things might be packed into: "this hex is same as swamp for all purposes". Am I missing some nuance there?


On a thematic note, I think the scale of the destruction also makes it a bit difficult for me to visualize what exactly is going on - just how much debris comes from breaking the bridge, compared to the size of a hex.
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Martin Gallo
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Had this come up last week and as I recall we just considered the hex to be rubble.
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Stephan Beal
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i don't have any concrete answers for you, but i did find one case where rubble and swamp differ mechanically. From the ODE rulebook, page 21, in the "Effects of Missile Explosion" box:

Quote:
Terrain may protect units outside the explosion hex. If a unit is in woods or swamp, treat it as being one hex farther from the explosion. If it is in a town hex, or underwater, treat it as being two hexes farther away. Infantry in a rubble hex is also treated as being two hexes farther away.


So, no, rubble and swamps are not always identical, though they are for most purposes.

While looking for answers, i also stumbled across an inconsistency in the handling of recovery of units disabled by swamps/rubble. Page 10, Turn Sequence (4.02), says:

Quote:
Roll one die for each of his units disabled by forest, rubble, or swamp, regardless of how long it has been disabled, to see if it recovers. On a roll of 1 to 4, the unit recovers and is turned right-side-up. See 5.08.2, 5.08.4.


yet page 12, section 5.08.2, says:

Quote:
Forest, rubble, and swamp are the same to GEVs. ... A unit disabled in this way may roll to recover at the beginning of each turn. On a roll of 1 or 2, it remains disabled; otherwise, it recovers. ...


Section 5.08.4 on "light tracked units" at the bottom/right of page 12 says the same thing.

i.e. page 10 says units recover on a 1-4 and page 12 says GEVs and light tracked vehicles recover on a 3-6. Statistically, both approaches are identical, so there's no real rules conflict here, but it is certainly an unintentional inconsistency.
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David Rock

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sgbeal wrote:


While looking for answers, i also stumbled across an inconsistency in the handling of recovery of units disabled by swamps/rubble. Page 10, Turn Sequence (4.02), says:

Quote:
Roll one die for each of his units disabled by forest, rubble, or swamp, regardless of how long it has been disabled, to see if it recovers. On a roll of 1 to 4, the unit recovers and is turned right-side-up. See 5.08.2, 5.08.4.



1 to 4 is a typo; the roll check is a 3-6 to recover. i.e., units that are disabled by terrain (by a roll of 1 or 2) have to check every turn and if they roll another 1 or 2, they stay disabled.
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David Rock

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hemflit wrote:
Hi! I've had some confusion about section 13.02.2 in the ODE rulebook, and I was hoping someone could clear it up.


"GEVs can no longer cross the river surface in that hex."

That part had me most confused in combination with the rest of the section ("but… they can get out onto land, come back and traverse it as a swamp if they want?") till I saw this post which seems to clarify that as basically just "GEVs don't get their water-going road bonus". Am I getting that part right?


"For movement purposes, all units treat that hex as the worse of swamp or rubble."

As far as I see, rubble is never worse. So can I understand this as just "movement as in swamp"?

Is it also supposed to mean Ogres, SHVYs and Marines don't submerge? Does it mean the hex counts as a piece of land for purposes of GEVs having to stop at water/land boundary? I would imagine "yes" to both, but it's hard to be certain with all this very specific phrasing.


Given that "For defense purposes, the hex is rubble", but rubble and swamp have the same defense effects, it almost seems like all three of those things might be packed into: "this hex is same as swamp for all purposes". Am I missing some nuance there?


On a thematic note, I think the scale of the destruction also makes it a bit difficult for me to visualize what exactly is going on - just how much debris comes from breaking the bridge, compared to the size of a hex.


Yeah, this one has always been a mess. I prefer the older rules that are more explicit. As I explained in the other post, the main phase that matters is "all units." For simplicity, I usually just think of it as swamp. With all the baggage that carries, it's really unlikely you would ever drive into it with a GEV anyway. It would make more sense (and be just as fast) to simply go around it in almost every case. As a result, functionally there's no real difference. Dropping the old wording allows units other than Ogres and INF to take a chance and ford the river, risking getting stuck or disabled.

The "worse of swamp or rubble" has always been a weird one, too. For movement, there is one key place where they differ: SHVY and Ogre spend 1MP to enter rubble, and 2MP to enter swamp. Why the phrase is weird is that means for movement (where this is being applied), it should just be swamp because that's always "worse." Again, for simplicity (gameplay and thematically) I just think of it as swamp.
EDIT: The official errata has changed this wording
13.02.2 Results of river bridge destruction (p. 23)
Should say “For movement purposes, all units treat that hex as swamp.” instead of “as the worse of swamp or rubble”.

Submerging units: No, they do not submerge because it isn't water anymore. Whether you think of it as swamp or rubble doesn't matter; since it isn't water anymore, all the usual issues apply (stream edge on the transition, etc).
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Keith Lewis
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Great discussion. Too bad the next revision is already at the printer (I think I read that on the forum). I'm sure this will a great addendum or errata.
 
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Jeff Saxton
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There was some talk that the later "Battlefields" KS in 2018 will include an all new update of the rulebook, so there is yet hope if we identify all these typos and edge cases now.
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Vladimir Filipović
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Thanks a lot for the details, David. That all does make things much clearer!

granitepenguin wrote:

EDIT: The official errata has changed this wording
13.02.2 Results of river bridge destruction (p. 23)


Can you tell me where these errata live? I can't find them in the obvious place (http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/errata/) and I'd like to see what else is in there.
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David Rock

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hemflit wrote:
Thanks a lot for the details, David. That all does make things much clearer!

granitepenguin wrote:

EDIT: The official errata has changed this wording
13.02.2 Results of river bridge destruction (p. 23)


Can you tell me where these errata live? I can't find them in the obvious place (http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/errata/) and I'd like to see what else is in there.


They are being collected in the forums:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=126734

errata are being incorporated into the next printing of the rules, and FAQs will be posted when final. The Word docs are a little stale, but you can see a lot of the details in the forum thread.
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Vladimir Filipović
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Thanks again!

I've been preparing a longish post to put here with further questions about a bunch of other rules situations I don't 100% understand. Those docs and the thread have already answered some of them now.
 
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