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Sheriff of Nottingham

As usual in my reviews, I won’t be significantly rehashing the rules here, as those are readily available if people are interested. Instead I will be focusing on my opinion of the game itself, and the various gameplay mechanisms of the game.

Experience with the game: I’ve enjoyed Sheriff of Nottingham since right around it’s launch. I’m not huge on social games, but I always like to have a few unique ones around for when non-gamers are around and want to play something, or especially to use when family is around. Sheriff of Nottingham fit that bill perfectly.

Rules clarity: The rules are extremely simple to understand and you can learn the game and teach it in about five minutes and start playing. The rulebook is well laid out. No complaints.

Components and Art: I really enjoy the artwork for the game. It’s simple and yet pleasing to the eye. Thick chunky cardboard pieces are great especially in regards to the coins. The cards are decent quality and seem to be holding up well even during a high number of plays. The box has pretty good inserts as well (although not much is required for the game). One of the better components is the individual player card holders that you slide your cards into each round. These really are great with nice snaps, but they also are one of the components that make me nervous that they might eventually tear. They haven’t yet, so maybe it is an unmerited concern. The sheriff standee is a nice touch. You can replace it with a mini available from arcane wonders which is even nicer, but is completely unnecessary. The game also does have an app available to do scoring, and while this app is good, it sadly is no longer up to date and so with more than the base game and early promos it is rather worthless, which is a shame considering how helpful the app is for assisting with the somewhat annoying task of scoring at the end of the game.

Gameplay: The game is very simple. One person is the sheriff and every turn other players pass goods through the checkpoint. You have legal goods and contraband you can pass through the checkpoint. Everyone has two turns as the sheriff. After those two turns you add up the values of your goods and contraband, as well as bonuses given out for those with the most of each legal good. Getting goods through the checkpoint can get very interesting with bribes being thrown around, and even demands for bribes. Sometimes people will bribe will no contraband in their bag just to tempt the sheriff to take a look and pay the penalty. It’s a great game of playing small little mind games with the other players and choosing the exact moment to strike.

One of the big plusses I heard about Sheriff prior to playing was that you could theoretically win it by playing the game completely straight. I have found in our many plays that with the base game alone not only CAN you win by playing it straight but that playing it straight not only is viable option, but an extremely competitive option. Playing it straight every single hand and refusing to ever give bribes. It was effective enough in the groups that we played with that at one family setting it actually ended up breaking the game and it was no longer fun to play any more due to the lack of bribery and contraband being slipped through. Everyone playing the game straight simply ruins the game, and yet in every game someone has invariably tried it out and rose to the top prompting others to do the same.

This brings me to the thoughts behind the title of my review. The game as a base game alone has the potential to be broken. While theoretically it is fun to have people playing it straight, the more people do it the less fun the game become. So what can be done to fix it? House rules? Variants? No, the solution lies in the…. Promos. Well now promos and expansion. All of the promos (except the sheriff mini) are contraband. And some dang good contraband at that. Contraband that is actually worth smuggling.

You see the problem with the base game and the reason that playing it straight was a safer bet is that the contraband… just really isn’t worth the risk, especially once bribes start getting paid and bonuses are paid out for legal goods. Suddenly with the base game you start wondering why you even bothered to smuggle anything through. This only worsens the more games of Sheriff you play.

It seems that the designers of the game came to the same realization as the promos tend to not only be more worthwhile contraband, but also contraband that makes other contraband more viable, or contraband that makes it easier to win legal goods bonuses. Finally there is a reason to smuggle goods, and, more importantly, a reason to have negotiations and bribery during the rounds. Because really, that is where the fun of the game lies, in the negotiating. The expansion also includes a module that makes smuggling contraband much stronger, so those who cannot get promos for a reasonable price still have a way to “fix” the base game if they so desire.

Scalability: Works well at 4-5 players (6 with the expansion). It states it will play 3, but I haven’t found it to be as much fun at 3.

Final Thoughts: Sheriff of Nottingham is a great party game, that really unfortunately does need a “patch” to make the game continue to be fun after many plays, in the vein of increasing the strength of contraband. With a few extra cards or a module from the expansion the game really springs into life with hilarious interactions between players, and good memories to be had. Certainly a game I would recommend, with the side note that you might as well find some of the promos or the expansion at the same time because otherwise it simply isn’t as fun.

Score: 6/10, 8.5/10 with promos

If you enjoyed my review, see my other reviews here.
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Chris
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Very nice review. Interesting that it can be played this way. Good to know. Don't think I'll bring this up before playing or try to break it this way. Nonetheless I will be trying to get expansions/promos soon. Thanks
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ogoctopus wrote:
Very nice review. Interesting that it can be played this way. Good to know. Don't think I'll bring this up before playing or try to break it this way. Nonetheless I will be trying to get expansions/promos soon. Thanks

Getting the Merry Men expansion shouldn't be a problem (it's everywhere), the promos might be though I got mine through the arcane wonders store (even the plastic mini sheriff) only promos they currently have in stock are the pig one. Promos are nice to have though I don't see them as required.
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Good to know. Merry men will be a likely purchase after a few games.
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ogoctopus wrote:
Good to know. Merry men will be a likely purchase after a few games.


Try it out without the promos or expansion first. It's still a good game without the extra stuff, it just didn't have the staying power in the 3 groups I have tried it in because every time someone tries the "play it straight always with zero bribes" strategy and that seems to quickly break the meta game.

Maybe your group doesn't have anyone who likes to break games though!

In terms of getting the promos, they are easy to get as they come out, and pretty affordable. I ordered the pig pack from the Arcane Wonders site and as a nice gesture they included multiple other promos as well. Not bad service on their part. Some of the promos seem to be going the expensive route, but thankfully the expansion also has incentives for increasing contraband.
 
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Are you offering high enough bribes?
We had a similar problem in our early games, before a couple of players just started bribing high and shifted the meta to heavy contraband.
By playing it straight, for 8 rounds (assuming this is a 5 players game), you'll be netting roughly 3.5*8=28 resources, averaging 3 coins per card, 84 coins in total, plus bonuses (assume 20), plus 50ish starting coins - let's say you'll get 155 coins? Is that in line with your experience?
The winner in our games routinely reaches the 190ies/two hundreds.

Offering the best contraband(s) of a 5-card purse can often net both the dishnest merchant and the sheriff a better deal than inspecting the purse (or playing an inferior legal hand).
Negotiation then shifts on the details of the deal, which are mostly affected by the perceived relative standing of the two merchants.
Making deals is also by far the most efficient and effective way of winning King/queen bonuses, by picking up extra resources from players who are not in contention as part of some deals.

In Sheriff, all deals are win-win (opening an illegal purse leads to loss of shared resources). With contraband in your purse, your job is to eek out the best deal, but any deal is better than no deal. (RSP here I come)
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We've had very high bribes but the play it straight player still has always comes out ahead. Certainly hasn't only been small bribes offered. The problem is the play it straight player doesn't bribe and they take huge bribes = win win for them still. As long as a player is refusing to bribe or do contraband it seems to be very rough to beat. And devolves the game. In our games the bottom line is the contraband simply has not been worth taking.
 
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chrisoc13 wrote:
We've had very high bribes but the play it straight player still has always comes out ahead. Certainly hasn't only been small bribes offered. The problem is the play it straight player doesn't bribe and they take huge bribes = win win for them still. As long as a player is refusing to bribe or do contraband it seems to be very rough to beat. And devolves the game. In our games the bottom line is the contraband simply has not been worth taking.


This goes completely against my experience (or any reasoning I can make, for that matter), so I honestly don't know what to reply.

But I've done some maths:
in the deck, there are 906 coins. Of these, 408 are on green cards (split fairly evenly between the 4 goods) and 498 on contraband/royal goods. Just considering the merchants' side of things, let's say that every contraband costs you 50% of its value in bribes*. So, 408 coins on green and an effective 249 on red/gold. I just can't see how ignoring >33% of the coin sources can be the winning strategy.

*Sometimes I end up giving much more (eg in case of some key royal goods), sometimes much less, depending on who's the sheriff and how much I want to risk a no-deal.
 
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If you play a few games, it's a self-correcting 'problem'.

If everyone sets out being completely honest and not offering bribes, then Sherrifs will stop opening bags. And as soon as Sherrifs stop opening bags on a regular basis, then players who try to smuggle in contraband will do so reliably (because Sherrifs stopped checking) and this will give them an advantage over players who continue to play completely honestly.

The game doesn't need contraband to be a common occurrence just something that can happen. There's a huge meta going on here and the honest player will only win if the other players are trying too hard to smuggle goods, so that it's far too profitable to check bags and/or accept bribes.

Even if you only use green goods you can still make plays to encourage the Sherrif to open your bags.

I have tried to play honestly before - I didn't win because someone else was being mostly honest, but also smuggled through some contraband which gave them a points advantage.
 
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Different experience I guess. I've played this game many times. I stand by what I said. It needs better contraband to fix it. And the publisher agrees to some degree at least as every promo and expansion has significantly increased the value of the contraband.
 
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chrisoc13 wrote:
Different experience I guess. I've played this game many times. I stand by what I said. It needs better contraband to fix it. And the publisher agrees to some degree at least as every promo and expansion has significantly increased the value of the contraband.


If your point is that adding more contraband and other modules freshens the game up and adds a lot of longevity then I won't disagree - I haven't played it enough to feel the need but I can see why people would feel that way.

But I think 'fix' is way too strong a term - you're implying the game is somehow broken and its popularity and the amount of love it's had just as the base game pretty much proves that a 'fix' isn't necessary.

The designers can add more contraband etc and it will still self-correct. It will just self-correct to a meta with more smuggling because the potential payoffs are better.

I don't disagree in principle, but terms like 'broken', 'fix' and 'patch' seem to be massively overstating the issue.

Plus of course, many players like the fact that you can win this as a set collection game by playing it straight. If you add so much incentive to smuggle that honesty is no longer a potential winning strategy then that could put a lot of players off the game as well.
 
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I don't use the term fix often. Or broken. In fact I almost never do. But in this case I think the base game needs a fix to be fun. It needs more lucrative contraband. Does the game still work without it? Yes. But far too many times I have seen it break down by the honest player strategy which takes most of what I find fun in the game out of it.

I can see you strongly disagree but that's fine, it's a review, it's just my opinion. No worries. I actually think it's a great game, once you fix it.
 
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chrisoc13 wrote:
I don't use the term fix often. Or broken. In fact I almost never do. But in this case I think the base game needs a fix to be fun. It needs more lucrative contraband. Does the game still work without it? Yes. But far too many times I have seen it break down by the honest player strategy which takes most of what I find fun in the game out of it.

I can see you strongly disagree but that's fine, it's a review, it's just my opinion. No worries. I actually think it's a great game, once you fix it.


You're claiming there's something objectively 'broken' about the game and then defending it as your subjective opinion. That's not consistent, and that's why I take issue with it.

If you just think there's not enough lying for your liking then that's fine; that's your opinion. But that in no way means the game is broken, so 'fix' is an inappropriate term which makes a far stronger claim than merely stating your subjective opinion.

You literally say the base game works but needs a 'fix' - you're contradicting yourself right there. Something that works does not need to be fixed. Improvement is the word you're really looking for, I think.
 
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No I found the word I wanted. Fixed.

Where is this an objective review? By it's very nature it is subjective. I never once claimed there was something objectively broken. There is something subjectively broken. Contraband needs to be more lucrative. It's a review. Never once have I claimed it is objective. Why would it be? Where are you getting that idea? The game for me isn't as fun as the base game. It breaks down with every group I have played it with. It needs a fix.

I get that you disagree. That's great. I'm providing my perspective, you are welcome to yours. But no degree of arguing about my opinion is going to change it.
 
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My favorite strategy is to sometimes smuggle, but always offer a small payout to the sheriff, even if I am not smuggling.

So he can accept the very small offer, or open a bag of 5 apples and pay me 10. Or was it 5 silk?
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I am not convinced by this, sounds like group think:

chrisoc13 wrote:

You see the problem with the base game and the reason that playing it straight was a safer bet is that the contraband… just really isn’t worth the risk, especially once bribes start getting paid and bonuses are paid out for legal goods. Suddenly with the base game you start wondering why you even bothered to smuggle anything through. This only worsens the more games of Sheriff you play.


With four bread in your hand you are still going to be better off including a contraband card as well even if you have to pay the Sheriff more than the penalty value of the card.

"But the Sheriffs in my group rarely negotiate" you say in rebuttal. That is the heart of the "problem". As a Sheriff you will in most cases have a better chance of winning if you take a bribe that exceeds the penalty you could extract. In my experience seeing games play out where honesty prevails, the people playing Sheriff either just don't get the math, are irrationally loss averse (they view letting any goods through as a loss), or just playing to be vindictive instead of to win. All it takes to overcome that is a couple of people agreeing that when they are Sheriff all bribes will be considered. Those two will have a huge advantage over the rest of the players.

The promos and expansion might help to encourage more reluctant players to play contraband but I dont view them as fixes to anything except groupthink because the game is not broken. In our games the contraband players are almost always negotating their contraband through. A single honest player wouldn't be able to compete even if they refused to negotiate (guess how many contraband cards they will see in their subsequent round as sheriff).

EDIT: And one thing about the rules, which I think contributes to the perceived issue... Although the rules are clear they don't give players a good sense of how to play. Without some guidance, new players will do stupid things like repeatedly play only contraband instead of playing them as a supplement to basic set collection, pay more than the cards are worth to them to get their cards through, and, as sheriff, fail to recognize when a bribe is a good deal.
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foldedcard wrote:
I am not convinced by this, sounds like group think:

chrisoc13 wrote:

You see the problem with the base game and the reason that playing it straight was a safer bet is that the contraband… just really isn’t worth the risk, especially once bribes start getting paid and bonuses are paid out for legal goods. Suddenly with the base game you start wondering why you even bothered to smuggle anything through. This only worsens the more games of Sheriff you play.


With four bread in your hand you are still going to be better off including a contraband card as well even if you have to pay the Sheriff more than the penalty value of the card.

"But the Sheriffs in my group rarely negotiate" you say in rebuttal. That is the heart of the "problem". As a Sheriff you will in most cases have a better chance of winning if you take a bribe that exceeds the penalty you could extract. In my experience seeing games play out where honesty prevails, the people playing Sheriff either just don't get the math, are irrationally loss averse (they view letting any goods through as a loss), or just playing to be vindictive instead of to win. All it takes to overcome that is a couple of people agreeing that when they are Sheriff all bribes will be considered. Those two will have a huge advantage over the rest of the players.

The promos and expansion might help to encourage more reluctant players to play contraband but I dont view them as fixes to anything except groupthink because the game is not broken. In our games the contraband players are almost always negotating their contraband through. A single honest player wouldn't be able to compete even if they refused to negotiate (guess how many contraband cards they will see in their subsequent round as sheriff).

EDIT: And one thing about the rules, which I think contributes to the perceived issue... Although the rules are clear they don't give players a good sense of how to play. Without some guidance, new players will do stupid things like repeatedly play only contraband instead of playing them as a supplement to basic set collection, pay more than the cards are worth to them to get their cards through, and, as sheriff, fail to recognize when a bribe is a good deal.


I'll reiterate an important point again. This wasn't one game, or even one of new players, this was many games with many different players over several years of play. Yet it always devolved the same way before more contraband was introduced that was more valuable to smuggle. And clearly it wasn't everyone learning from the rule book. How could that be assumed when at least one player (me) had clearly played the game multiple times. It wasn't like these were new groups each time sitting around learning from the rule book. That explanation simply doesn't hold water. During a teaching round there would be clear guidance of the better ways to play. Didn't matter. But see... that is one of the issues of the game. You are describing it has to be played a certain way to be fun, that's an issue with the game. It can be broken. This is true for most social games so it isn't exactly alone in that regard.

For those not convinced about the play it straight issue, this is not an unknown issue with the game. There was recently the same discussion being held by others in regards to the table top episode in which... you guessed it... the player who played it straight won. So... call it what you would like but it happens often enough with enough different groups that it seems a little hard to brush aside with many exceptions and excuses.

Also in terms of negotiating your contraband through, the rules actually forbid that. You cannot state anything illegal in your bag. Everything you claim has to be legal. If you mean negotiate simply by giving bribes while saying everything is legal than sure, that's the game, everyone does that. But you cannot state anything illegal in your bag.
 
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foldedcard
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I'm not arguing with you that this can't happen, although I'd love more details about how the games go where this is an issue. Do the honest people just get ahead in the general chaos of suboptimal play by other players? (As others have said, that's just like big money in Dominion.) I just disagree with the broad claim of the title that "this game needs promos/ an expansion to be good". For plenty of people the game is perfectly good as is.

chrisoc13 wrote:

Also in terms of negotiating your contraband through, the rules actually forbid that. You cannot state anything illegal in your bag. Everything you claim has to be legal. If you mean negotiate simply by giving bribes while saying everything is legal than sure, that's the game, everyone does that. But you cannot state anything illegal in your bag.


During the negotiation phase you can say anything you want. (This is clearly true because on page 8 it says you can offer contraband in your bag as part of the bribe.) It's only the declaration phase where you are restricted to declaring a single legal goods type. Cheap talk during negotiations can be consequential.

For example, during negotiations you are free to say "I don't really have four apples, I have three apples and a silk -- let's make a deal and I'll pay you $6 if you let me though". Sure you might be lying and have four silk (or a totally different set of four goods), but if you are then everyone will know during the reveal and they will adjust how they respond to you in future rounds. On your next turn, you might be facing the honest player who refuses all bribes, put all honest goods in your bag and make them the same offer as you made last time and hope to catch them out. The cool thing about this game is there are a ton of ways to play with unique meta that will grow around the group but it's definitely not a game for everyone.
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foldedcard wrote:
I'm not arguing with you that this can't happen, although I'd love more details about how the games go where this is an issue. Do the honest people just get ahead in the general chaos of suboptimal play by other players? (As others have said, that's just like big money in Dominion.) I just disagree with the broad claim of the title that "this game needs promos/ an expansion to be good". For plenty of people the game is perfectly good as is.

chrisoc13 wrote:

Also in terms of negotiating your contraband through, the rules actually forbid that. You cannot state anything illegal in your bag. Everything you claim has to be legal. If you mean negotiate simply by giving bribes while saying everything is legal than sure, that's the game, everyone does that. But you cannot state anything illegal in your bag.


During the negotiation phase you can say anything you want. (This is clearly true because on page 8 it says you can offer contraband in your bag as part of the bribe.) It's only the declaration phase where you are restricted to declaring a single legal goods type. Cheap talk during negotiations can be consequential.

For example, during negotiations you are free to say "I don't really have four apples, I have three apples and a silk -- let's make a deal and I'll pay you $6 if you let me though". Sure you might be lying and have four silk (or a totally different set of four goods), but if you are then everyone will know during the reveal and they will adjust how they respond to you in future rounds. On your next turn, you might be facing the honest player who refuses all bribes, put all honest goods in your bag and make them the same offer as you made last time and hope to catch them out. The cool thing about this game is there are a ton of ways to play with unique meta that will grow around the group but it's definitely not a game for everyone.


Possibly, but it is a repetitive problem and really makes the game not fun when it occurs which is... every time in my experience eventually with the base game alone. I don't really feel like trying to break down for everyone exactly how to avoid it with perfect optimal play because there is an easier way to avoid it... and that is simply to add the promos or expansion and you then don't have to play the game the right way in order to have fun. It's simple. It fixes the problem.

Also yes you are correct about negotiating, I was speaking of declaring goods. My mistake for misunderstanding.

Funny thing I think some people have clearly missed... I really like the game and believe it or not it is a positive review with one major criticism with a solution for it. I don't have to have it explained to me over and over again how to play it the right way, in fact it only supports my thoughts on it. I've played it A LOT, I don't need a tutorial on how to bribe, negotiate, etc. It's a nice thought, but this isn't "A first experience with the game" post, this is a review after years of playing it. Trust me, I've tried just about every type of bribe possible, and that's exactly why I enjoy this game. It's fun, I agree. And luckily for those who haven't tried yet, there is a solution to the honest player problem others have found as well, it's called better contraband.
 
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I think what people are challenging you on, is how strongly you seem to suggest in certain parts of the review (not all, I agree) that the base game is hardly even worth trying.

Now, having read it all again I can see that might not have been your intent on the whole (you do say 'after many plays' for example). But for each time you say something like that, you seem to suggest somewhere else the game is actually objectively 'broken and needs a fix to be fun.' End Of Story. That's certainly what the title appears to be stating.

However! Perhaps we can agree, that:

1. People who are interested in the game but don't want to shell out for the expansion on a game they haven't tried, should give the base game a try. Even if we assume that every group will eventually get bored of the 'honesty meta' you have experienced, there is probably still good amount of fun to be had up to that point for a game that is fairly modest in price.

2. If groups do find that players don't play enough contraband to make the game interesting for them, then they should definitely consider getting the expansion because it promotes the use of contraband.

3. If they can afford it and are confident they will like the game, then they should seriously consider getting the expansion right from the start so they can mix up the amount of contraband etc in the game whenever they feel like the game needs a tweak.

If we agree on those points, then my disagreement would be largely over lexical semantics.

I think 'broken and needs a fix' is an objective claim, and factually incorrect. However, you intend it to reflect your subjective experience. I don't think it comes across that way, but you have clarified as such so it's all good.
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There's nothing about broken or fixed that they have to be used in an objective manner. They absolutely can be used in a subjective manner. Nothing about the words mean they cannot in English. Clearly as this is a review it is subjective. Your experience may vary. Mine has not.

I basically agree with what you wrote. I think the game is worth trying even without expansions or promos but... I wouldn't recommend it without more contraband. And I personally would no longer play it without more contraband.
 
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chrisoc13 wrote:
There's nothing about broken or fixed that they have to be used in an objective manner. They absolutely can be used in a subjective manner. Nothing about the words mean they cannot in English.


Sure, and as a mechanic I can tell you 'your shock is broken and needs to be fixed'. Then under closer examination I can clarify that to mean 'your shock makes a squeak which I find annoying'. whistle

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I think the game is worth trying even without expansions or promos but... I wouldn't recommend it without more contraband.


You appear to be contradicting yourself again.
 
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Orion3T wrote:
chrisoc13 wrote:
There's nothing about broken or fixed that they have to be used in an objective manner. They absolutely can be used in a subjective manner. Nothing about the words mean they cannot in English.


Sure, and as a mechanic I can tell you 'your shock is broken and needs to be fixed'. Then under closer examination I can clarify that to mean 'your shock makes a squeak which I find annoying'. whistle

Quote:
I think the game is worth trying even without expansions or promos but... I wouldn't recommend it without more contraband.


You appear to be contradicting yourself again.


I'm not sure how many more times I can go around and around with you on this. It's very repetitive at this point. I get that this really bothered you to some degree, I'm sorry we disagree on the game, but we do. It's actually not a big deal to disagree. I've been pretty clear about my thoughts. Let me help one last time and then we can move on- I subjectively think the game is broken as just a base game on repeated plays. But I highly recommend it with the fix that promos and the expansion provide.

On another note- Worth trying doesn't mean I recommend it. You must be able to see the is a spectrum between the two. If someone offers to try it with just the base game, then sure do it. It's worth trying. A recommendation would imply seeking it out. I can't say it's worth doing that. Try it? Sure. Recommend it? No. It's not black and white. There is a spectrum.

Your welcome to continue a discussion but I have nothing more to add to it at this point and I tire of the continuous repetition.
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chrisoc13 wrote:
I'm not sure how many more times I can go around and around with you on this. It's very repetitive at this point. I get that this really bothered you to some degree, I'm sorry we disagree on the game, but we do. It's actually not a big deal to disagree.


I agree, it's not that big a deal. But I do think reviewers should be able to clarify/defend/change their positions when challenged on the content of their reviews. It adds to the review if it's given more context and means it's less likely potential players will be misread.

Quote:
I've been pretty clear about my thoughts. Let me help one last time and then we can move on- I subjectively think the game is broken as just a base game on repeated plays. But I highly recommend it with the fix that promos and the expansion provide.


Sure, you have clarified that you're not using 'broken' or 'needs a fix' in the way many people (myself being one such person) would interpret them. You have now made that clear which was the entire point in challenging you on it.

To be totally honest my original post in this thread wasn't directed so much towards your review, or even you. I was just making a general observation about the overall issue of the 'honest player' problem you described. It became more of an issue when you actually seemed to start making the point even more strongly than in your original review.

Quote:
On another note- Worth trying doesn't mean I recommend it. You must be able to see the is a spectrum between the two. If someone offers to try it with just the base game, then sure do it. It's worth trying. A recommendation would imply seeking it out. I can't say it's worth doing that. Try it? Sure. Recommend it? No. It's not black and white. There is a spectrum.


Sure, but that's not how I interpreted the line I quoted. You didn't say you wouldn't recommend seeking it out. You say the game is worth trying but you wouldn't recommend it. You didn't specify what exactly you didn't recommend, implied you wouldn't recommend the antecedent; namely trying.

Again you have clarified what you meant which is fine - you recommend trying the base game, you would not recommend seeking it out by which I assume you probably mean buying or otherwise investing in it. Unless you also get the expansions of course.

Quote:
Your welcome to continue a discussion but I have nothing more to add to it at this point and I tire of the continuous repetition.


Actually I agree we are about done. You have made your positions fairly clear, and other than perhaps the longevity of the base game we don't disagree on much at all.
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Thanks for the clarification, and for the discussion.
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