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Subject: Which top games are the most/least thematic, finally determined, once and for all! (POLL) rss

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James C
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skutsch wrote:
SuperGLS wrote:
I didn't realize this poll was supposed to be serious since many of skutch's polls don't seem that way to me. Honestly I didn't even read any of the text outside of the actual poll. I can happily revise my votes.

Good man! Revise away!

I know it's partly my fault, so many of my polls are jokey, but this one I'm actually taking seriously. I really will process that data and churn out numbers on each game's theme rating.


Ok, revised. For some, because I couldn't blankify them, I had to go off what I know about the, rather than having played them.
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I hadn't really thought about it before, but answering the poll made me realise Scythe and Viticulture are quite thematic.
 
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Ryan Feathers
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jblomquist wrote:

Regarding TM/Gaia Project, I don't think that's all that fair to knock TM for Gaia Project existing, I mean, at their core they're both still about societies expanding and developing and spreading their influence, and the changes from fantasy to sci-fi come with changes to the particulars of the races. To me that would be a bit like saying no Warhammer property could be considered at all thematic because they were able to change it from fantasy to sci-fi. I'd agree with you that if they rethemed the system to be about running competing restaurants or something completely different that would be one thing, but at the core it's still pretty similar. And I also don't let components influence my ratings much, but if you do then maybe you'd find Gaia Project more thematic, since the buildings are now detailed plastic pieces.



I adore Terra Mystica and yet I rated it as pretty much a slapped on theme or themeless. I'll agree that a few of the races you can make some mild cases for their theme helping to explain their benefits and actions, but stuff like Darklings, Chaos Magicians, and Giants certainly don't translate into explaining what they might be good at for me. And outside of those connections....uhm there's like no theme. The game doesn't really tell a story, the rules and mechanics aren't really easier to explain with the theme in mind. In my opinion stuff like Pandemic nails this where without the theme the rules would be much more difficult to understand, but because the real life idea of diseases spreading fits the way the mechanics work, it becomes much easier to learn. Throughout the entire game of Pandemic you get a story of outbreaks in various zones, your team of researches fighting these various diseases and researching the cure....it works great. Many other games manage these elements as well.

But to me, as much as I may love it, Terra Mysica offers none of that. You can change the theme, you could rename almost everything, and ultimately it would be the same game and no harder to understand or learn, nor tell any different of a story than it does now. So to me, I think it's fair to give it about as low a rating as one can on theme.

Quote:

And regarding Agricola vs Caverna, I definitely agree that the adventuring is a knock for the latter, but honestly I have a pretty similar issue with the person cards in Agricola. I'm sure there's some explanation that works for you, but it's like what Ryan Keane said, if you have to explain it to me it probably won't be very convincing. Plus the way that particular rooms in Caverna/major improvements in Agricola are exclusive is weird. Oh, you built a fireplace in your house, I guess I can't any more. What? Similarly some of the worker placement spots (e.g. planting crops). So I gave them both threes. And I don't know if I should admit this right after saying that, but I gave TM a four. I can't think of any mechanic that doesn't have an obvious thematic interpretation, which was the metric I was going on.


I view Agricola as a 4 while Caverna gets a 3. The sustenance farming theme of Agricola works well to help build a narrative of my little family farm and to help explain how various bits and pieces work. Oh I plant these orange and yellow disks as they are grain and veggies, and I get them back at harvests. The animals go in the pens and they breed occasionally as long as there is at least a pair. These mechanisms make intuitive real life sense and make the games easier to understand (unlike the above mentioned Terra Mystica). But much like skutsch, I have a bit harder time getting behind the dwarven caving/adventuring/farming ideas and turning them into the mechanisms of the game.

But ultimately as I see the criteria you were using compared to what I was using, it makes sense we differ. Personally though you'll have a hard time convincing me that Terra Mystica deserves a 4 when I think it fails at the two main things I'm looking for theme to do--build me a narrative of what has gone on in the game, and to help assist in learning and knowing the rules.
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Jake Blomquist
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Ranior wrote:
I'll agree that a few of the races you can make some mild cases for their theme helping to explain their benefits and actions, but stuff like Darklings, Chaos Magicians, and Giants certainly don't translate into explaining what they might be good at for me.


Well, I think Giants make sense, they're big and strong and so their approach to terraforming is brute force, and so all territory is equally hard to turn into a wasteland for them. Darklings and Chaos Magicians I'll agree with you to a point, but I think that's because popular culture doesn't give us (or at least hasn't given me) an idea of what Darklings are/do. Apparently they're creatures who rely on some sort of magic (all magic in TM feels vaguely shamanistic/elemental, given the cults) rather than labor to do things like terraform?

But we could go back and forth on particulars all day, I think the point is that different things resonate with different people and different people are willing to brush over different things. To me what's more interesting is the approach to the poll you took.

Ranior wrote:
But ultimately as I see the criteria you were using compared to what I was using, it makes sense we differ. Personally though you'll have a hard time convincing me that Terra Mystica deserves a 4 when I think it fails at the two main things I'm looking for theme to do--build me a narrative of what has gone on in the game, and to help assist in learning and knowing the rules.


Yeah, this is an interesting set of criteria and definitely different from mine. I think it's harder for me to feel like a game built a narrative than it is for most people. If a game does that for me it gets a 5. And since I don't find a narrative in Agricola any more than I do in TM I have to find some other criteria on which to rate them. I could probably count on one hand the number of games that built me a narrative. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Arabian Nights (narrative is all there is in that game, so it had better succeed at this) and De Vulgari Eloquentia (a game that people don't talk about enough, with a really cool and strong theme).

I also had a tough time using my approach with games that basically don't have mechanisms (e.g. Arkham Horror). In general I asked whether there were any mechanisms that I couldn't justify using the theme. But the entirety of the theme in these games is in artwork and flavor text, so where do they belong?

I also still suspect that a lot of this is very particular to the circumstances in which the voter has played the games. The Agricola/Caverna split for example still feels really arbitrary to me, but I guess that's the point, moreso than any other rating on the site (only possibly barring the game's actual rating) this one seems to be based on a very personal reaction to a game.
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Laura Creighton
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jblomquist wrote:

I also agree about Agricola vs Caverna which some people have mentioned (and made this point last time as well). I have no good theories there. Maybe some people still see the conflict between those two games and are using this poll as a proxy, maybe Agricola just has a reputation as thematic, and that's helping it? I don't know.


If your 'I can relate to the theme meter' doesn't go *bing* when high fantasy elements (i.e. dwarves) show up, you may find Agricola a lot more thematic than Caverna. Conversely, many people find dwarves easier to relate to than farming.

But it will have an effect on the poll. There are lots of very nice thematic games out there which I didn't rate because I have never played them because 'sf/high fantasy/horror theme' is something a game has to overcome before I want to play it. No matter how much I like theme.
 
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Laura Creighton
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skutsch wrote:
Oy. How can people list wargames as having no theme? Bizarro world.


They see theme and subject matter as different things. You can't retheme a war. (You might be able to make the next wargame in the series, using similar mechanisms, but you are bound by history there, and not your imagination.) Normally I am one of these people, but for your poll, I decided that it would be more misleading to say no theme. But I had to think about it. And since you have wargames about imaginary wars that might have happened, but didn't, its not an easy question to approach, or at least there is not an easy fit between 'how I think about this' and your poll.
 
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skutsch wrote:
Fascinating. The first person to take the poll (besides me) went down the list and rated almost every game a "no theme that I can say". (The exceptions, which they rated "dripping in theme" were Yinsh, Crokinole, and Tichu.) I wonder if they mean that they simply see no themes in any games, or that they thought it'd be funny, or that they simply object to polls on religious grounds? I'm going to guess it's religious reasons because that's a lot of buttons to click just for a joke.


Always has to be one jerk. If you don’t like the poll why ruin the data for others?

Pretty selfish if you ask me. Whoever that was you need to give your head a shake!
 
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R0land1199 wrote:
skutsch wrote:
Fascinating. The first person to take the poll (besides me) went down the list and rated almost every game a "no theme that I can say". (The exceptions, which they rated "dripping in theme" were Yinsh, Crokinole, and Tichu.) I wonder if they mean that they simply see no themes in any games, or that they thought it'd be funny, or that they simply object to polls on religious grounds? I'm going to guess it's religious reasons because that's a lot of buttons to click just for a joke.


Always has to be one jerk. If you don’t like the poll why ruin the data for others?

Pretty selfish if you ask me. Whoever that was you need to give your head a shake!


Keep reading, he apologized a couple pages later for not realizing the poll was serious and revised his votes.
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CARL SKUTSCH
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SnarksandBoojums wrote:
R0land1199 wrote:
skutsch wrote:
Fascinating. The first person to take the poll (besides me) went down the list and rated almost every game a "no theme that I can say". (The exceptions, which they rated "dripping in theme" were Yinsh, Crokinole, and Tichu.) I wonder if they mean that they simply see no themes in any games, or that they thought it'd be funny, or that they simply object to polls on religious grounds? I'm going to guess it's religious reasons because that's a lot of buttons to click just for a joke.


Always has to be one jerk. If you don’t like the poll why ruin the data for others?

Pretty selfish if you ask me. Whoever that was you need to give your head a shake!


Keep reading, he apologized a couple pages later for not realizing the poll was serious and revised his votes.

And all is forgiven!
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Darryl E
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skutsch wrote:
SnarksandBoojums wrote:
R0land1199 wrote:
skutsch wrote:
Fascinating. The first person to take the poll (besides me) went down the list and rated almost every game a "no theme that I can say". (The exceptions, which they rated "dripping in theme" were Yinsh, Crokinole, and Tichu.) I wonder if they mean that they simply see no themes in any games, or that they thought it'd be funny, or that they simply object to polls on religious grounds? I'm going to guess it's religious reasons because that's a lot of buttons to click just for a joke.


Always has to be one jerk. If you don’t like the poll why ruin the data for others?

Pretty selfish if you ask me. Whoever that was you need to give your head a shake!


Keep reading, he apologized a couple pages later for not realizing the poll was serious and revised his votes.

And all is forgiven!


Very good of them to come back and be forgiven. A very rare occurrence indeed!
 
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Jake Glenn

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aaj94 wrote:
I may be alone in this, but I do see a ton of theme in Tigris and Euphrates -- it's hundreds of years of civilization compressed into a game, but the rise and fall of different civilizations with different strengths/weaknesses seems very thematic to me.


I feel this way about Dominion. You are hiring different agents to take 'dominion' over the land. Whether it be spies, mercenaries or wealth. Works for me.
 
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My bad. I decided to cover more games in this poll than last year's version and I seem to have reduced participation some. People look at the list and their eyes glaze over. As I was typing the names in, I decided to go as far as Above and Below cuz I like that game and wanted to see it rated. Gross favoritism!

Ah well, live and learn. I hope we can at least reach 300 total voters.
 
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Who are the 4 people who say Mansions of Madness: Second Edition has no theme that they can see?!? C'mon, fess up. No milk and cookies until you do. I can wait here all day [crosses arms and begins tapping foot].
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Ryan Feathers
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jblomquist wrote:


Yeah, this is an interesting set of criteria and definitely different from mine. I think it's harder for me to feel like a game built a narrative than it is for most people. If a game does that for me it gets a 5. And since I don't find a narrative in Agricola any more than I do in TM I have to find some other criteria on which to rate them. I could probably count on one hand the number of games that built me a narrative. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Arabian Nights (narrative is all there is in that game, so it had better succeed at this) and De Vulgari Eloquentia (a game that people don't talk about enough, with a really cool and strong theme).

I also had a tough time using my approach with games that basically don't have mechanisms (e.g. Arkham Horror). In general I asked whether there were any mechanisms that I couldn't justify using the theme. But the entirety of the theme in these games is in artwork and flavor text, so where do they belong?

I also still suspect that a lot of this is very particular to the circumstances in which the voter has played the games. The Agricola/Caverna split for example still feels really arbitrary to me, but I guess that's the point, moreso than any other rating on the site (only possibly barring the game's actual rating) this one seems to be based on a very personal reaction to a game.


I think you're pretty right on with rating of theme being a fairly personal reaction to a game.

For example I agree with you that Arkham Horror essentially doesn't have mechanics that aid it's theme. Learning and remembering the rules to that game are not really aided by the theme of that game. (There's a few small examples that I could point to such as when you run out of health you go to the hospital, but largely there are tons of rules that mostly have weak ties to any theme in my opinion). However Arkham does a great job in my opinion of telling a story. My group still fondly talks about the time where we won the game, but in doing so a player's character accidentally got stuck in another world. We got lucky to find a way to close a gate before the professor character had time to travel back through. In closing the gate we won the game, but that poor professor is presumably trapped over there still. The character had also had many other impressive and crazy encounters throughout Arkham, and so it was just a fun and vivid memory of this heroic old man thinking he was saving the world by going through this portal, only to find his friends found a way to shut it before he could finish the job himself, and now he's trapped forever.

Moments like that are partially what I rate theme on. Arkahm fails for me in terms of helping to remember or teach the rules, but it does a great job in creating memories and narratives. I've never had a game of Terra Mystica stuck in my head strongly because I'm thinking of how cool it was when the Alchemists used their special powers to create coins and built a structure to win end network scoring for the win. It just doesn't do a thing for me.

(Then again as I said above I do also rate things as thematic if their mechanisms are closely tied to their theme. One such recent example is Photosynthesis which I find quite thematic, even though it doens't do much to build up lasting memories or stories.)

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More votes or else. I have polls and I'm not afraid to use them.
 
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Jake Blomquist
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skutsch wrote:
More votes or else. I have polls and I'm not afraid to use them.


Hey if I could vote multiple times I would. The results need to be closer to my opinions anyway.
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blackmeeple wrote:
I hadn't really thought about it before, but answering the poll made me realise Scythe and Viticulture are quite thematic.

Someday I will play Scythe and discover how thematic it truly is. When I do, I shall alert you all. Stand by.
 
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Wow I'm surprised that I'm the only one that thinks Great Western Trail is dripping with theme! (Granted I usually play western music in the background, and we really get into it, so my viewpoint may be quite skewed)
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Alextnorris wrote:
Wow I'm surprised that I'm the only one that thinks Great Western Trail is dripping with theme! (Granted I usually play western music in the background, and we really get into it, so my viewpoint may be quite skewed)


Yeah, I'll admit I gave it a 2/5. Most of my issues stem from the deck of cows not really making any sense to me for a handful of reasons, but thinking about it now, there's also the goal cards, the fact that you're controlling to an extent which hazards come out, the fact that it's not clear who you are (a cattle wrangler who's also a railroad baron and some sort of land developer - were there really any such people?). And this is a minor thing but it's been pointed out that it doesn't really make sense to ship the cattle west when historically they were sent eastward to industrialized places (commonly Chicago) to be processed and packaged.

But anyway, if it works for you that's great, that's the funny thing about this poll, it's incredibly subjective (the best evidence being how wrong everyone but me is...)
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jblomquist wrote:
But anyway, if it works for you that's great, that's the funny thing about this poll, it's incredibly subjective (the best evidence being how wrong everyone but me is...)

So true. Of course, the same is also true for game ratings and weight ratings; we know how much folks agree on those.
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jblomquist wrote:
Alextnorris wrote:
Wow I'm surprised that I'm the only one that thinks Great Western Trail is dripping with theme! (Granted I usually play western music in the background, and we really get into it, so my viewpoint may be quite skewed)


Yeah, I'll admit I gave it a 2/5. Most of my issues stem from the deck of cows not really making any sense to me for a handful of reasons, but thinking about it now, there's also the goal cards, the fact that you're controlling to an extent which hazards come out, the fact that it's not clear who you are (a cattle wrangler who's also a railroad baron and some sort of land developer - were there really any such people?). And this is a minor thing but it's been pointed out that it doesn't really make sense to ship the cattle west when historically they were sent eastward to industrialized places (commonly Chicago) to be processed and packaged.

But anyway, if it works for you that's great, that's the funny thing about this poll, it's incredibly subjective (the best evidence being how wrong everyone but me is...)


Yeah, I guess that is where we differ. I don't think a game always has to be logical to be thematic, but I totally understand why that would hurt the thematicness for someone. I wouldn't say that it is normal for me to think an illogical game is thematic, but in this case I guess it's true.

(And I don't picture myself as the cowboy, but the business man trying to control all of his employees and create multiple streams of income (buildings, cows, and cutting costs on transportation by creating my own supply line, rather than subcontracting it out)

Edit: but yeah, the cows don't make since lol
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Alextnorris wrote:
Great Western Trail...5

jblomquist wrote:
2

And I split the difference between you by voting 3. I agree with jblomquist that a lot of the game seems arbitrary but it still gave me kinda the feel of the West and that was good enough for a 3, if not quite a 4.

From this thread, and many others, it's clear that we all judge what is thematic in very different ways. My way seems to be to ask if the game as a whole screams "I'm A WESTERN" or "I'M A SPACE OPERA" or "I'M WORLD WAR ONE". The more it does, the more thematic I feel it is. What makes it feel that way? I dunno, it's a feeling man. Art, graphic design, flavor text, and mechanics all play a role but it's not an intellectually thought out thing. There is no formula.
 
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I don't think "mechanisms match subject matter" is sufficient for a game to be thematic. (Necessary, but not sufficient.) Thematic, to me, means I get immersed in the game and feel like I am actually doing the thing the game is about, and don't just abstract back out to the mechanisms.

Terra Mystica I felt was very weakly themed, even if some of the race abilities matched what was going on on the board, because I never remotely felt invested in the fantasy setting. I was purely manipulating mechanics during my plays of it.

It's also quite easy for me to conceive of weakly-themed war games by this criterion. (Arguably, all war games are weakly themed, because there is no sense of danger for your own life or responsibility/guilt for the loss of other lives under your command.)
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Prismattic wrote:
Thematic, to me, means I get immersed in the game and feel like I am actually doing the thing the game is about, and don't just abstract back out to the mechanisms.


So true! That's a really good way to word it in my opinion
 
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Alextnorris wrote:
Prismattic wrote:
Thematic, to me, means I get immersed in the game and feel like I am actually doing the thing the game is about, and don't just abstract back out to the mechanisms.

So true! That's a really good way to word it in my opinion

Yes, but for that to happen, the mechanisms must be very good. For some people they only need to be good enough (unobtrusive enough?) to not break immersion, but for other people they need to contribute to or even largely provide the theme.

I think familiarity with complex games is a deciding factor for many people. I went from number crunching through the rules with Mage Knight, to seeing nothing but theme in everything I did, and I think that that was only possible because I'd internalised all the rules to the point I no longer had to think about them. For example, one person would say "why can't I do what I want to do? This is just random card draw and number-crunching". I would say that Tovak must be in a seriously bad mood with all those Rage cards, and decided to burn the monastery down - right now he doesn't care that it would be more sensible to recruit the Golems first. One person's "dripping with theme" is another's "pasted on".

Also, Tigris and Euphrates is way more thematic than Eldritch Horror, and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong.
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