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Overturn: Rising Sands» Forums » General

Subject: The Kickstarter for this game is a patchwork of plagiarism and is most likely a scam rss

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kaerkkk mors
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Here are some of the key things that are very concerning about this campaign:

- Plagiarism - their posted rulebook has astounding similarities when compared to the Massive Darkness rulebook, with many paragraphs copied word for word.
For your reference, here’s a side-by-side comparison one of the backers have posted:
https://tinyurl.com/ybcr8j42

- They haven’t posted an update addressing all the concerns that backers have raised since the rulebook was posted. Campaign updates trigger emails and other forms of notifications to all backers, which will be an effective way to inform all backers of the current situation and how they choose to handle it. Yet, no updates on that topic, just some responses on the comments page, which get hidden unless someone decides to go in and dig through it. The latest update mentions nothing about the plagiarism accusations. The creator only said in the comments section that: “Its unfortunate that the alpha version bears uncanny similarity with the said game's rule book but since it's not the final version there is no need for us to address this any further than we already are.”

- CMON’s CEO, Chern Ann Ng, has filed a DMCA notice against them for this. Screenshot for your reference posted by @Impact! Miniatures:
http://www.midgardbb.com/KenWhitman/Screenshot%202018-07-14%...

- Plagiarism - Refund Policy (under Risks and Challenges) copied word for word from Mythic Battles’ KS campaign without even fixing it to show the correct currency.

- Plagiarism - they copied Mythic Games’ KS profile biography word for word.
This is Foxtales’ profile bio:
https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/1412544049/about?ref=bgg...
This is Mythic Games’ profile bio (starting from the 2nd paragraph):
https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/1162110258/about?ref=bgg...

- Plagiarism - the Shipping section of this campaign is copied word for word from Conan’s KS campaign:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/806316071/conan?ref=bgg...
(scroll to the bottom, right above Conan’s Copyright section, between “We will do our utmost to ensure...” and “...Thank you for your understanding.”)

- The 3 creators are not Canadians, yet they’re posting this as a Canadian-based project. They are all Pakistanis, but they are not posting this as a Pakistani campaign. They said it is because one of their first financial backers is located in Canada, who had paid for them to take trips to visit Canada. Nothing’s wrong with being Pakistani, but something’s wrong when you’re representing yourself as someone you are not.
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James J

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kaerkkk wrote:

- They haven’t posted an update addressing all the concerns that backers have raised since the rulebook was posted. Campaign updates trigger emails and other forms of notifications to all backers, which will be an effective way to inform all backers of the current situation and how they choose to handle it. Yet, no updates on that topic, just some responses on the comments page, which get hidden unless someone decides to go in and dig through it. The latest update mentions nothing about the plagiarism accusations.


Note: I have no dog in this fight. I was not and will not be a backer. This only came to my attention because a project that was a scam (Space Goat Productions "Evil Dead" game) had a discussion that linked over here.

Having said that, the point above kind of answers itself. They've decided to double-down and basically ignore this. They've lost a lot of backers, but they still have about $170k USD as I write this. Likely due to people who pledged and then walked away. Every time they ping the group with another update, they run the risk of more backers learning about the plagiarism. I would expect few to no updates in these final few days and no mention of it if an update does go out.

I do feel bad for the backers. I've had a run of bad luck on KS after many successful projects, and I know how much it stinks.
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From a Kickstarter rules perspective, there are shades of gray in interpreting whether the apparent plagiarism and apparant breach of copyright are enough for KS to shut the project down, as opposed to only taking down the material subject to a DMCA notice. Where it looks to me to be unambiguous that the project breaches Kickstarter rules is in what looks like extensive use of photorealistic renderings on the main campaign page.
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Snow Blind
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Not at all surprised by this turn of events. When it hit Kickstarter, it seemed far too good to be true and for a first timer to put up a KS campaign the scale of Mythic Battles was a huge red flag. I was cynical enough to steer away but many won't be and at the end of the day this campaign is most likely gonna get funded so the creators will end up making money off of this. That in turn, will encourage more scam campaigns on KS.
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Martin Tomov
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I think the last nail in the coffin was that instead of pulling some 'smart' explanation about the whole issue, the company started addressing individual people's comments and concerns with snarky remarks. That doesn't even come close to what a sensible company would do.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that Kickstarter steps in and cancels this before people lose their money.
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Chad Egbert
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japester1 wrote:
kaerkkk wrote:

- They haven’t posted an update addressing all the concerns that backers have raised since the rulebook was posted. Campaign updates trigger emails and other forms of notifications to all backers, which will be an effective way to inform all backers of the current situation and how they choose to handle it. Yet, no updates on that topic, just some responses on the comments page, which get hidden unless someone decides to go in and dig through it. The latest update mentions nothing about the plagiarism accusations.


Note: I have no dog in this fight. I was not and will not be a backer. This only came to my attention because a project that was a scam (Space Goat Productions "Evil Dead" game) had a discussion that linked over here.

Having said that, the point above kind of answers itself. They've decided to double-down and basically ignore this. They've lost a lot of backers, but they still have about $170k USD as I write this. Likely due to people who pledged and then walked away. Every time they ping the group with another update, they run the risk of more backers learning about the plagiarism. I would expect few to no updates in these final few days and no mention of it if an update does go out.

I do feel bad for the backers. I've had a run of bad luck on KS after many successful projects, and I know how much it stinks.


I don't think there is need to feel bad for the backers. I was one of the early ones and stayed until the rulebook release. Not a problem to cancel my pledge. Sure it's disappointing to have the project end up like this, but nothing lost if you cancel.
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Joel Mann
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HailTheSun wrote:
Not at all surprised by this turn of events. When it hit Kickstarter, it seemed far too good to be true and for a first timer to put up a KS campaign the scale of Mythic Battles was a huge red flag. I was cynical enough to steer away but many won't be and at the end of the day this campaign is most likely gonna get funded so the creators will end up making money off of this. That in turn, will encourage more scam campaigns on KS.


I agree with this. If KS doesn't shut this down and they get 170k us dollars to run away with this will for sure encourage more scammers. I for one am going to be very careful what I back in the future.
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Maxim Steshenko
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kaerkkk wrote:
The 3 creators are not Canadians, yet they’re posting this as a Canadian-based project. They are all Pakistanis, but they are not posting this as a Pakistani campaign.

I'm sorry but I don't see Pakistan in that list:
Who can use Kickstarter? page wrote:
Project creation is currently available to individuals in the US, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Netherlands, Denmark, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Austria, Belgium, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Hong Kong, Singapore, Mexico, and Japan

Therefore they can't create a Pakistani campaign.
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Shelby Babb
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ConG wrote:
From a Kickstarter rules perspective, there are shades of gray in interpreting whether the apparent plagiarism and apparant breach of copyright are enough for KS to shut the project down, as opposed to only taking down the material subject to a DMCA notice. Where it looks to me to be unambiguous that the project breaches Kickstarter rules is in what looks like extensive use of photorealistic renderings on the main campaign page.


Well, they're using -something- tangible in the playthrough videos. Edit: I think there was unconfirmed rumors the maps were from Conan by Monolith.

I'm in the "not a scam, but too lazy and incompetent and plagiaristic to legally deliver" camp personally, which means I'd still encourage folks to run away.
 
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John H
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San Dee Jota wrote:
ConG wrote:
From a Kickstarter rules perspective, there are shades of gray in interpreting whether the apparent plagiarism and apparant breach of copyright are enough for KS to shut the project down, as opposed to only taking down the material subject to a DMCA notice. Where it looks to me to be unambiguous that the project breaches Kickstarter rules is in what looks like extensive use of photorealistic renderings on the main campaign page.


Well, they're using -something- tangible in the playthrough videos. Edit: I think there was unconfirmed rumors the maps were from Conan by Monolith.

I'm in the "not a scam, but too lazy and incompetent and plagiaristic to legally deliver" camp personally, which means I'd still encourage folks to run away.


You are letting them off way too easy with lazy and incompetent. Consistently lying to backers and stealing almost every bit of text from other companies is not honest or ethical. That is not laziness, that is fraud.
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Eduardo SB
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After all these plagiarism, copy-paste from other KS campaigns, etc., I'm not even sure if the photos and bios of the "developers" are real... My gosh, KS should cancel immediately this campaign.
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I'm in the "it's too risky" camp.

The concept, art and models and promotional videos are great and original, and the artist deserves a lot of credit. There's no way that anyone would put that much quality creative work into a project like this without intending to see it deliver.

It seems as if the game mechanics are probably not fully developed and not properly playtested. That's not uncommon in miniatures Kickstarters, but it is always a bad sign and in this case there's not much evidence publicly available to suggest that the project team has the expertise to deliver a great game.

I think it's great to see really creative work coming out of Pakistan, and in principle that's something that would make me more likely to back a project. However, because Pakistan is further away from me culturally and legally than Europe, the US, Canada and Australia, I would want some extra reassurance about creator commitment and practical enforceability of my contract with the creator in comparison to a similar US/EU/Canada/Australia Kickstarter. We have not had that.

The apparent plagiarism and copyright infringement are not by themselves a dealbreaker for me. Gameplay mechanisms are re-used in new games all the time, and should not be that difficult for someone competent to rewrite rules to ensure that the final published version avoids copyright infringement. But they make me concerned that the creator team has demonstrated unreliable business judgement, and has shown a record of cutting corners. Also, it may not have the capacity to produce the clear well-written English required for a good rulebook.

All these, let's say, "amber flags" then make me concerned about how well the project team may understand the economics of Kickstarter game production and fulfilment. We see a lot of projects become severely stressed because they underestimate costs or do not allow enough contingency in case something goes wrong. I would like to see a team demonstrably likely to respond well and protect the interests of backers in case of this sort of stress.

It's a pity, because I think the concept, the art and the minis are great, and I like that they come out of Pakistan. But the risks are too high, so I'm not backing.
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Jason Daniels
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So, one of the Foxtales guys came on a few hours ago and assured the folks in the comment section that the final rulebook will be different....but not the rules themselves.
 
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Snow Blind
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ConG wrote:
There's no way that anyone would put that much quality creative work into a project like this without intending to see it deliver.


Potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars is good enough of a reason. There are countless of "businesses" in Nigeria where employees spend their days on the phone and online trying to scam money out of gullible western fools. If there is easy money to be made, then there will be those who exploit it. There are still many people on KS defending this campaign aswell. I guess people really need to burn and learn for themselves.
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Shelby Babb
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HailTheSun wrote:
ConG wrote:
There's no way that anyone would put that much quality creative work into a project like this without intending to see it deliver.


Potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars is good enough of a reason. There are countless of "businesses" in Nigeria where employees spend their days on the phone and online trying to scam money out of gullible western fools. If there is easy money to be made, then there will be those who exploit it. There are still many people on KS defending this campaign aswell. I guess people really need to burn and learn for themselves.


There's a world of difference between making some phone calls and printing up physical minis, board maps, terrain pieces, etc. etc. etc. that are shown in the playthrough videos. I'm not talking about the 3-D renders (which also take some talent, but can be relatively easily/cheaply faked), but the actual items on display. Phone calls just take time, but making a physical mock up of a game takes time -and- money. Certainly more money than phone calls do at least.

Now, if those -physical- -tangible- pieces are all stolen from other games and sources (and they very well could be!), then things get easier on a scammer. But nobody has really pointed out where they could've been stolen from (I -think- somebody mentioned the maps were from Conan?, but I've seen no confirmation). And nobody's shown signs of the 3-D renders being stolen either.

And it's at the point where you create an actual, -original- product, with a clear demand, that I have to wonder why someone would run it as a scam instead.

The KS says there's three guys. One of them actually made a game and apparently handles things like graphic design, prototyping, etc. One of them is the project manager and publisher (the initial money guy). And one of them handled all the writing... by stealing from other sources (possibly with the intent to go back later and personalize/rewrite it, possibly not). But I'm thinking that the guy handling the writing was able to get their plagiarized work past whoever didn't handle the writing.

I'm guessing everybody on the team trusted everybody else, and didn't bother to pay attention ("don't worry, the KS is being handled! You just focus on your parts!" "Okay friend!"). And that part of the team really is crooked, so the project dies, and the non-crooks (assuming there are some) now realize their name(s) and work are so tarnished at this point there's no salvaging things. I mean, it's not like they're going to run text searches on everything their trusted friend types up, so they likely don't notice anything amiss until the KS comments are already howling for their skulls.

I dunno'. Maybe all of them are crooks. Maybe there's only one guy, and the "team" is something he made up. But getting your company gutted by a trusted friend screwing things up for you isn't a unique concept.
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Cory Finch
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San Dee Jota wrote:


There's a world of difference between making some phone calls and printing up physical minis, board maps, terrain pieces, etc. etc. etc. that are shown in the playthrough videos. I'm not talking about the 3-D renders (which also take some talent, but can be relatively easily/cheaply faked), but the actual items on display. Phone calls just take time, but making a physical mock up of a game takes time -and- money. Certainly more money than phone calls do at least.

Now, if those -physical- -tangible- pieces are all stolen from other games and sources (and they very well could be!), then things get easier on a scammer. But nobody has really pointed out where they could've been stolen from (I -think- somebody mentioned the maps were from Conan?, but I've seen no confirmation). And nobody's shown signs of the 3-D renders being stolen either.

And it's at the point where you create an actual, -original- product, with a clear demand, that I have to wonder why someone would run it as a scam instead.

The KS says there's three guys. One of them actually made a game and apparently handles things like graphic design, prototyping, etc. One of them is the project manager and publisher (the initial money guy). And one of them handled all the writing... by stealing from other sources (possibly with the intent to go back later and personalize/rewrite it, possibly not). But I'm thinking that the guy handling the writing was able to get their plagiarized work past whoever didn't handle the writing.

I'm guessing everybody on the team trusted everybody else, and didn't bother to pay attention ("don't worry, the KS is being handled! You just focus on your parts!" "Okay friend!"). And that part of the team really is crooked, so the project dies, and the non-crooks (assuming there are some) now realize their name(s) and work are so tarnished at this point there's no salvaging things. I mean, it's not like they're going to run text searches on everything their trusted friend types up, so they likely don't notice anything amiss until the KS comments are already howling for their skulls.

I dunno'. Maybe all of them are crooks. Maybe there's only one guy, and the "team" is something he made up. But getting your company gutted by a trusted friend screwing things up for you isn't a unique concept.


The miniatures in the game-play videos are, by Foxtales own admission, are 3D printed:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1412544049/overturn-ris...
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1412544049/overturn-ris...
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1412544049/overturn-ris...
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1412544049/overturn-ris...

The other materials shown are also easily printed by any regular joe-schmoe.

As far as the renders go, yes they're beautiful! But several backers with experience have given the opinion they were generated in software more geared towards videos games, not plastic / resin casting, and that the miniatures would have tons of problems when manufactured.

Not only that, but they claim that one guys does all the art - renders and drawings. With that in mind, compare the quality of the renders to any of the illustrated things (like character cards); they don't match up.

Time and again they've made promises to release an update, or a new rulebook and simply refuse to do so.
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Joel Mann
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This is 100% a scam. Get out while you can or lose your money. No game will ever be made.
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Ess Why
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I would not touch this project with a 10 foot pole. One interesting thing is that they actually pieced together some kind of prototype for a preview with board game brawl.
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Well, if Kickstarter does not cancel this campaign, they might succeed. Some backers are leaving the boat, yes, but it's still far from the funding goal.

I must recognize I'm not totally sure if it's a scam or not, but even if they finally do the game, they deserve nothing. They plagiarized the rulebook, they copy-pasted the shipment and refunding norms, the KS, YouTube, and BGG profiles, they even copied the name of the company, they pretended to be a company based in Canada whereas apparently there is no Foxtales Studios in that country, not a single update after the exodus started... angryangryangryangryangryangry

People, last call, save your money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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CrowdOx withdrew their support. Here is a post from the comment page in chat:

Impact! Minatures wrote:

From: Chandler Copenhaver - July 16, 2018 - 8:53 pm EST
Hey gang- Thank you Tom Anders @ Impact! Miniatures for adding me in here and the 5 or so people who have reached out to us.

I just wanted to make sure that all our friends were aware of the situation. I am the Director of Business Development for CrowdOx and worked with this creator personally, so I want to confront this.

We have been called out by backers and others in the industry alike as somehow being in cohorts potentially (at a deeper level) with this creator. That is really unfounded and silly. Truth be told, they signed up for using us last week before this really escalated to where it is - and we had no sense of foul play at the time. On my call with Humayun Syed I actually confronted the fact that his funding took such a big dip. He brushed it off and the rest of the call was rather normal.

As with most instances, we attempt to say more so objective, as a software and service that creators of all kind can use to service their campaign and work with their backers. The same is the case with these guys, as we had no other reason not to.

I personally have worked with over 1000 campaigns over the past almost 4 years, and seen scams and all the like. This one put off a fairly solid vibe from the outside that could be seen without too much digging.

Also to make a quick note that some in this group might disagree or not want to hear:
This creator COULD be legit. They COULD be just Idiots and have terrible business sense. They COULD have made really poor decisions. They could be actually planning to ship product but have made HORRIBLE (and damning) decisions, with the plagiarism and other illegal/ unethical behaviors. We have been a part of campaigns that were called out as scams and had very aggressive confrontation. It is a very different situation however, with most of these being called out typically months after not shipping etc, with delayed campaigns that did not fulfill etc. - and in most of those cases they actually fell upon hard times, or made bad mistakes and struggle. But all of these have ended up fulfilling. There are more scenarios of genuine people trying their best and being just genuinely stuck or out of money, or charged too little to ship etc. that we have worked with. As a service provider, we do not want to place more judgement than is necessary to what we do - and just help in every-way we can, to make sure they do succeed.

Having all this said, in these instances however the evidence is too strong and we have a chance to confront the problems, as it is quite different since it is pre-emptive to the campaign being already funded, and knowing of the issues.

We have reason to believe, as the rest of you, that there are too many issues and the evidence is pretty strong, so it would be better to not associate with this campaign. We have decided with the information that we have and we do not want to be a part of the campaign. We have notified them that we will be terminating the contract and have requested that they undo the collaboration status, and also take off the CrowdOx Banner on their page. Both of these we have NO control over. We can put them up or take them down, as these are creator only controls. We will attempt to contact KS and ask them to do it, if they creator does not take it off.

It is the community that makes KS as awesome as it is (and I am proud to be a part of that community both in what I do, as well as a avid backer) - so I am appreciative of you all and also surprised that this response has not caused a shutdown yet, so I really hope that happens still.

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Ess Why
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Again, I wouldn't pledge one cent to this project, but I'm thinking more this is not a straight up scam. Why would they go the trouble of contracting with a pledge manager if they were planning on just taking the money and running?
 
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In the end it doesn't matter how much of a scam it actually is.
Right now it could be anything from the range "straight up scam from start to end with no intention of producing anything" to "actually wanting to make the game with limited amount of own work"

Personally, I usually go with:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

and people on the internet have a tendency to assume everyone is out to get them without having the facts that prove the intent.

But as I said, in the context of ks the intent doesn't really matter.
the whole KS model is based on trust, and when that is gone with a project it doesn't really matter why.
Anyone who is backing something where he suspects they are misrepresenting something or doing something shifty, shouldn't be in control of his wallet or family funds.
You don't even have to be correct about your suspicions, most of the time the creators couldn't even prove their honesty even if they tried - it's just not practical, at least if you are looking on the short term of a ks campaign.

Nothing on ks is necessary, to every product there exist alternative projects of similar kind (in particular boardgames) and with doubts you probably won't be happy with the product anyway.


Side note, this ks shows you should at least check the comments shortly before a ks ends. If you just back and read updates in your email without going back to the ks page, you might get a rather one sided perspective.

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I'm not a backer, just a concerned Kickstarter fan who wants to know what happens in cases like this:

1) Where the game creators have a Cease and Desist levied against them from another company for IP infringement, i.e. CMON.
2) Where their Pledge Manager contractors, CrowdOx, have withdrawn their support for the project.
3) Where the funding level has already dropped so low as to now negate many of the "stretch goals" previously offered.

Surely the game creators would want to be posting immediate responses to all of these issues and allegations, particularly given that (at the time of writing) they had 58 hours left on their funding campaign?

The fact that they remain silent and are not doing anything to alleviate their backers concerns would, for me, be a big red flag.

With no Pledge Manager in place or agreed... how do the folks who are still backing this project think they are going to get their game?

Very unsettling to witness all of this, from a Kickstarter fan who has enjoyed many successfully produced games.

Edit: A lacklustre update from the creators, and I see they have requested their funding track is removed from Kicktraq. https://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1412544049/overturn-rising...
Well, that says it all folks... shake
My heart goes out to the backers who haven't been checking up on the comments section of KS, this forum, or the recent update. They probably don't even know what's about to happen to them. Ouch.
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The project creators posted a new update concerning the rulebook issue:

Quote:
The Alpha Version of the Rule-book's issue and our side of the story




Dear Backers:

During the last few days the campaign took a drastic turn after some of our backers pointed out that the rule-book we had shared was plagiarized from Massive Darkness.

Some harsh words have been said about our integrity and authenticity of this project and we would like to share our side of the story and then leave the matter in your hand.

Most backers may have realized that not being native speakers, we showed certain language related issues in the game as well as the campaign. Typos, grammatical and syntax errors were constantly pointed out which we admit were made by us.

The game when it was conceived by Humayun had detailed rules but they were written in textual form in the language Humayun is comfortable with. They were detailed, step by step and at points rather complex. We admit that when we had prepared the campaign, a coherent rulebook should have been prepared alongside the content of the campaign and we paid the price for that. When the campaign initiated we tried to create the content asked by our backers along the way since everything was ready but when the majority clamored for the rule-book we realized our folly.

We had to deliver the backers a rule-book so that they could believe that game is not just a pretty diorama but playable. Humayun resorted to the free-lancer who had drafted the content of the campaign to turn our textual rulebook into something coherent. We knew that we were sharing a very small part of the rule-book so released it as an alpha version to pacify our eager backers and boy did it back fired. When analogies were drawn, we were shocked as well and freaked out.

We apologize to all our dear backers who had such high hopes and interests vested in our project. However our inability to handle this disaster complicated this issue further. We also apologize for anything harsh that we may have said to our backers who were only looking out for this close knit community and just wanted what was best for all the backers. We apologize that we released the alpha-version without quality testing it and leaving a lot of our dedicated backers in dark without coming up with a formal statement from our own side.

Our actions have painted us in a negative light and we understand the consequences of the course we followed in the wake of this scandal but we assure and promise our backers that THIS IS NOT THE RULEBOOK THEY WILL BE GETTING WITH THE GAME. WE WILL NOT BE USING THIS BOOK AT ALL.

We apologize once again for this huge blunder on our part and own it.

Last but not the least, we would want to thank a lot of backers who showed faith in us and encouraged us not to give up. Their faith in us has served as a beacon for us during these dark days and we can’t thank them enough.


My first observation is this update is written in better English than just about anything else shown thus far in the campaign. Regardless of what one thinks of that, even if you take the update at face value you must conclude the following when considering this update along with the rest of the things they've stated since the start:

1. The creators are woefully inept
2. The creators have been dishonest

Scam or not, I suggest saving your money on this one.
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Drake Depew
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asgorn wrote:
In the end it doesn't matter how much of a scam it actually is.
Right now it could be anything from the range "straight up scam from start to end with no intention of producing anything" to "actually wanting to make the game with limited amount of own work"

Personally, I usually go with:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

and people on the internet have a tendency to assume everyone is out to get them without having the facts that prove the intent.

But as I said, in the context of ks the intent doesn't really matter.
the whole KS model is based on trust, and when that is gone with a project it doesn't really matter why.
Anyone who is backing something where he suspects they are misrepresenting something or doing something shifty, shouldn't be in control of his wallet or family funds.
You don't even have to be correct about your suspicions, most of the time the creators couldn't even prove their honesty even if they tried - it's just not practical, at least if you are looking on the short term of a ks campaign.

Nothing on ks is necessary, to every product there exist alternative projects of similar kind (in particular boardgames) and with doubts you probably won't be happy with the product anyway.


Side note, this ks shows you should at least check the comments shortly before a ks ends. If you just back and read updates in your email without going back to the ks page, you might get a rather one sided perspective.



Well stated, although I try to avoid conflating intent with sentiment. Sentiment being one's own impression of a situation whereas intention is the resolve to act to make that impression a reality.

I see no reason to assume they know they are massively incapable of delivering this project. Their sentiment seems genuine enough. However unwillingness to admit the faults in their campaign shows me they aren't willing to change to bring about their sentiments - their intent is questionable.

To me this looks like some people want to have made this game, not to actually make the game. This is like wanting to 'have invented cold-fusion', rather than wanting to 'spend the time learning the physics, writing the grant proposals for the experiments that solve the problems, then doing the experiments, then writing the papers, .......'
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