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Commands & Colors: Ancients» Forums » General

Subject: Help my partner’s issues rss

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Tom Stearns
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How effective ranged combat is depends on how well you roll....LOL.

I think he should stick with what he enjoys. I don’t like trying to convince someone they should like that which they don’t. He sounds more like someone who prefers more modern combat which is fine. That’s what he should play.
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John Rogers
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gohrns wrote:
How effective ranged combat is depends on how well you roll....LOL.

I think he should stick with what he enjoys. I don’t like trying to convince someone they should like that which they don’t. He sounds more like someone who prefers more modern combat which is fine. That’s what he should play.

Agreed on all accounts.
 
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Randall Shaw
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"I think he should stick with what he enjoys. I don’t like trying to convince someone they should like that which they don’t."

I agree also but don't allow his inaccurate and untrue characterizations of CCA and its play stand uncontested.
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John Rogers
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Sokadr wrote:
"I think he should stick with what he enjoys. I don’t like trying to convince someone they should like that which they don’t."

I agree also but don't allow his inaccurate and untrue characterizations of CCA and its play stand uncontested.

I’m sending your replies to him but it won’t matter unless he is open to being wrong or at least willing to accept that his perspective is subjective and not objective.
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Mayor Jim
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Hmmm...get a new war game partner
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Kevin Duke
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There’s an idea!

Your friend is acting very tediously.

Read what you wrote about his peference for “variety” but his preference for unit strengths being the same and you might notice a flaming contradiction.

I’ll just leave with a short but key observation from CCA. Without many extra/special rules, the system does a great job of bringing army “differences,” largely by the makeup of the forces. And players need to understand those and adapt...like your friend adapts to terrain.

Greek and Eastern armies FIGHT differently, and if the Easterners try to match the Greeks at “their” game, they lose. Likewise if any of the barbarian armies (they have slight but important differences) try to fight Roman’s like Romans—zip. Easterners and Barbarians can (and do) win, but they do it by applying their strengths and avoiding the strengths of the enemy.

Which is why CCA is such a marvelous system.
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John Rogers
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kduke wrote:
There’s an idea!

Your friend is acting very tediously.

Read what you wrote about his peference for “variety” but his preference for unit strengths being the same and you might notice a flaming contradiction.

Yep. I think he kinda knows it but won’t say anything. I just think it comes down to him not liking it and he can’t accept it w/o having a reason as to why the game is the problem (hey man, sometimes it’s just you and not the game and that’s okay).

kduke wrote:
I’ll just leave with a short but key observation from CCA. Without many extra/special rules, the system does a great job of bringing army “differences,” largely by the makeup of the forces. And players need to understand those and adapt...like your friend adapts to terrain.

Greek and Eastern armies FIGHT differently, and if the Easterners try to match the Greeks at “their” game, they lose. Likewise if any of the barbarian armies (they have slight but important differences) try to fight Roman’s like Romans—zip. Easterners and Barbarians can (and do) win, but they do it by applying their strengths and avoiding the strengths of the enemy.

Which is why CCA is such a marvelous system.

Oh I totally agree. I bet I would have beat him had we flipped Hydaspes for instance. You need to know how to best use the side you have as well as the terrain around you. He’s just so fixated on playing the way he thinks the game should work instead of embracing the rules for what they are and maneuvering within that system of constraints.

I think he has decided that most heavies wins and is lockjawed now. But if we played a scenario w/o heavies he’d complain about whoever had the stronger (via attack dice units) still. If we were totally symmetrical he’d complain about the cards, which he feels are the most swingy of the system (I disagree completely there; I think they are the most balanced) and far too dependent on leaders (who he calls practically superheroes) and cohesion (um that’s kinda the main thrust of the game).

At this point I think he just needs time to accept that he and Mr. Borg have a different view on pre-19th century warfare.
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Tom Stearns
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Sokadr wrote:
"I think he should stick with what he enjoys. I don’t like trying to convince someone they should like that which they don’t."

I agree also but don't allow his inaccurate and untrue characterizations of CCA and its play stand uncontested.

Nah, once I've stated my case time to move on and play something else. Especially in this case continuing to debate is only going to waste time and lead to frustration. I've seen his type before. Best to move on.
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Robin Reeve
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Sokadr wrote:
I agree also but don't allow his inaccurate and untrue characterizations of CCA and its play stand uncontested.
I agree with you.
Not for the person himself, who won't be convinced by counter arguments, but for the other readers of this thread.
It always is interesting to answer to a challenge and to think about how the game plays.
Of course, most if not all posters like CCA and are not frustrated by its system. But it always is a good thing to debate about it.
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James C
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No ever game is for everybody.
Could be a poor fit.

I love CCA, but his critiques are fair.

The one thing I'd point out however is not to underestimate the importance of retreat when fighting heavy infantry.

You never want to bear the full brunt of HI - either on defense or when attacking.

So, I always evade when attacked by HI, and I rarely atttack HI in close combat if HI is able to ignore a flag. It's critically essential that the defending HI retreat, thus precluding a counter attack.

I also move my units away from the reach of HI whenever possible.

I attack units to the right and left of HI to eliminate their ability to ignore a flag.

Finally, I harass HI with ranged weapons. If I can whittle HI down to one block or two blocks this way, I will indeed take my chances and attack because a destroyed unit can't counter attack.

In short, there's a lot of strategy around how best to deal with HI, and I fear that your friend has gasped that completely just yet.
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The Jigsaw Man
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John Rogers wrote:

• Heavy infantry are too dominate. Whoever has the most hevaies “always wins”. Evading isn’t good enough. You should be able to overwhelm heavies in close combat with a large number lights (more on that in a moment) but you can’t because of battle back (more on that in a moment). There is no way to mitigate the advantage of more heavies. Why even play. Just count the number of heavies and move on.

Trying to overwhelm heavies with lights is a TERRIBLE idea, as he seems to have realized. The correct use of the light units is range attack. Not even with the desire to score hits, but with the desire to cause retreats. If you can break up unit cohesion, you can pick the enemy apart.

Quote:
• Battle back is ridiculously powerful, particularly for heavies and leader inspired units. If you surround one heavy unit with 5 light units in close combat you should be able to beat them but you can’t. The lights will roll 10 dice total to the heavies 25 in defense and they hit on 2/6 sides vs 1/6 for lights (regulars with no inspiration).

To continue from above, this is WHY you don't try to overwhelm heavies with lights. If you send 4 light tanks after a heavy tank, the heavy tank suffers 4 hits, but can only shoot back at one, because of the turret. If you surround a maniple, it can stab everyone near it. Remind your friend that 5 dice is just the "front row" attacking, not the entire 120 man unit. If he surrounds them, then it has 4 "front rows." (ignore the fact that the board is hexes)

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Now my suggestions have been to a) never close combat with regular lights, b) play the light for range to soften heavies and bring bigger units in to finish the job, c) do a better job of line cohesion.

Bingo. Light units should roll range attacks to try to force retreats. This is countered by keeping your troops in lines, so that they get to ignore the first retreat, and so you are ready to use the "leadership" cards to best advantage.

Like everyone else said, he just prefers the tactics of modern tank warfare, where each 'piece" moves independently, but as part of a larger battle plan. If he wants to enjoy C&C, he has to get used to the idea of each piece maneuvering together, as part of a larger battle MACHINE.
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Marc Gacy
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Minedog3 wrote:
John Rogers wrote:

Sheesh! Well I can’t really answer a) because there isn’t a tracker somewhere with thousands of plays/outcomes (to avoid a small sample size) for every battle to look at

https://www.commandsandcolors.net/ancients/maps/scenario-sta...

6717 plays

Has anyone ever attempted to use those stats to justify changing the number of flags to win a scenario?
A rough approach as a first cut would be that "green" scenarios have no change, "white" scenarios are adjusted by one flag in favor of the typically losing side, and "red" scenarios are adjusted by two flags in favor of the losing side. It's not 100% balanced, but we already know they are not balanced!

In agreement with the OP's friend, I will agree that I don't like switching sides either (it seems to me the most "gamey" of all the rules/suggestions for playing CCA), so I'd like something to make a "win" likelihood more evenly distributed between the two sides.

If the victory conditions are seen as a measure of how well you should do in that situation, compared to how well you do against that opponent directly, the justification for shifting the number of flags needed for victory makes more sense.

 
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Marc Gacy
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amg100 wrote:
A rough approach as a first cut would be that "green" scenarios have no change, "white" scenarios are adjusted by one flag in favor of the typically losing side, and "red" scenarios are adjusted by two flags in favor of the losing side. It's not 100% balanced, but we already know they are not balanced!

Even though this is a very coarse change, I would still only apply it to results that have at least 25 entries, which gives a relative standard error of around 20%. This seems reasonable given the small shift in the change for scenarios that have a win disparity of greater than 1.5 (white, 1 flag shift) and greater than 4 (red, 2 flag shift).
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Marc Gacy
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amg100 wrote:
Even though this is a very coarse change, I would still only apply it to results that have at least 25 entries, which gives a relative standard error of around 20%. This seems reasonable given the small shift in the change for scenarios that have a win disparity of greater than 1.5 (white, 1 flag shift) and greater than 4 (red, 2 flag shift).
>=25 entries is almost 75 scenarios and if you reduced the minimum to >=20 entries, it becomes 95 scenarios, a very decent number of scenarios to play with an adjusted win condition.
 
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Marc Gacy
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amg100 wrote:
>=25 entries is almost 75 scenarios and if you reduced the minimum to >=20 entries, it becomes 95 scenarios, a very decent number of scenarios to play with an adjusted win condition.

Of the 75 scenarios, 32 would be adjusted by 1 flag and 5 would be adjusted by 2 flags using this system.
 
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Mark McG
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amg100 wrote:

Has anyone ever attempted to use those stats to justify changing the number of flags to win a scenario?

for a more mathematical campaign model see this thread
 
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Marc Gacy
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That thread is very cool!

Doing the same scenarios with my coarse eyeballing approach, I get a net +7 extra flags which is very close (the top end of the Minor Barbarian Victory).
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