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Subject: Negotiation in COIN games rss

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Salvatore Corrao
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So, do all coin games involve negotiation between players?
Of course, the 2-player one doesn't but lately I've decided I hate negotiation in boardgames.
I've only so far played A Distant Plain, quite liked it actually. But...!
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Harold Buchanan
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Wolverutto wrote:
So, do all coin games involve negotiation between players?
Of course, the 2-player one doesn't but lately I've decided I hate negotiation in boardgames.
I've only so far played A Distant Plain, quite liked it actually. But...!
Play solo - opponents won't do anything you ask!

Play 2 player to avoid the impact of multi players.

But, the negotiation is what makes this series a gem.
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Brian Train
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Negotiation is optional, and won't happen if you play with three others who hate each other (and you).

Or, as Harold says, you can play by yourself.

Brian
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David Goulette
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I feel that if you remove negotiation from COIN it becomes a fairly random experience. Assuming players with similar skill, everybody stays deadlocked inching toward their win condition until one faction gets a random lucky event to push them over. The win doesn’t feel like skill.

Negotiation is the thing that saves COIN games in my opinion. And I would go further and say that negotiation is part of the historical simulation. It is part of the story.

Without negotiation I would rather play an engine building euro like Gaia Project.
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Salvatore Corrao
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There are many non-euro games without negotiations. Space Empires is the first that comes to mind.
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Brian Train
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anaturalharmonic wrote:
I feel that if you remove negotiation from COIN it becomes a fairly random experience. Assuming players with similar skill, everybody stays deadlocked inching toward their win condition until one faction gets a random lucky event to push them over. The win doesn’t feel like skill.

Negotiation is the thing that saves COIN games in my opinion. And I would go further and say that negotiation is part of the historical simulation. It is part of the story.

Without negotiation I would rather play an engine building euro like Gaia Project.
I didn't mean to imply, in my reply, that formal rules in the game concerning negotiation be cancelled and players prevented from negotiating with each other.
What i meant was that if you have a table of four people who are not interested in talking or dealing, and do not want to interact with each other in that way, the game is still playable... but IMO it will be dull, and not even that much of a test of skill.
As you say, you are missing out on a big part of what makes the game interesting, both in its history and in its play.
My feeling is that practically all multiplayer games derive much of their experience and enjoyment from the people you play them with; everyone has a story about That One Guy (or more) Who Spoiled It For Everyone Else... or Who Made It Pop.
Unless the games are just exercises in parallel solitaire.

Brian
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Harold Buchanan
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There are many non conflict multi player games in the euro verse. They really amount to each player playing solitare on the same map. There is no need for negotiation in those cases.

But thats ok - thats a gamers preference. Frankly more people have that preference (no conflict or interaction) than my preference for extreme conflict and interaction.

We can all peacefully coexist. That will be my preference in that case.
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David Goulette
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ltmurnau wrote:
anaturalharmonic wrote:
I feel that if you remove negotiation from COIN it becomes a fairly random experience. Assuming players with similar skill, everybody stays deadlocked inching toward their win condition until one faction gets a random lucky event to push them over. The win doesn’t feel like skill.

Negotiation is the thing that saves COIN games in my opinion. And I would go further and say that negotiation is part of the historical simulation. It is part of the story.

Without negotiation I would rather play an engine building euro like Gaia Project.
I didn't mean to imply, in my reply, that formal rules in the game concerning negotiation be cancelled and players prevented from negotiating with each other.
What i meant was that if you have a table of four people who are not interested in talking or dealing, and do not want to interact with each other in that way, the game is still playable... but IMO it will be dull, and not even that much of a test of skill.
As you say, you are missing out on a big part of what makes the game interesting, both in its history and in its play.
My feeling is that practically all multiplayer games derive much of their experience and enjoyment from the people you play them with; everyone has a story about That One Guy (or more) Who Spoiled It For Everyone Else... or Who Made It Pop.
Unless the games are just exercises in parallel solitaire.

Brian
We agree on all points and I understand what you meant. I was making a general comment about COIN. My comment was more to the OP than you. I would never want to play COIN with a group that didn’t want to negotiate.
 
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David Goulette
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hankhankhank wrote:
There are many non conflict multi player games in the euro verse. They really amount to each player playing solitare on the same map. There is no need for negotiation in those cases.

But thats ok - thats a gamers preference. Frankly more people have that preference (no conflict or interaction) than my preference for extreme conflict and interaction.

We can all peacefully coexist. That will be my preference in that case.
Agreed. Everybody can have fun in whatever way they choose. I happen to love Gaia Project, Antiquity, and Agricola. Three of my favorite games of all time.

The thing I have noticed is that COIN games get recommended to eurogamers often (and I can see why). But then If you play COIN like you would play Puerto Rico, it makes for a boring and mostly zero-sum game. It has no life and is totally random in the end. Again, I don’t fault anybody if they enjoy that. But I see criticisms about COIN from folks who don’t realize the central importance of negotiation in the game design. And to be fair, I think the rulebooks do not really emphasize that point enough.

I just hope people know that negotiation is the lubricant that makes the game engine go.

If you are the Cuban syndicate and you are not using cash as leverage to negotiate with other factions to do what you want them to do... you are missing the most important mechanism in Cuba Libre IM(not-so-humble)O.


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Salvatore Corrao
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I extremely like conflict in board games, I just don't like negotiation.
I like COINs (only played ADP - found it very "elegant") and wanted to know if negotiation was a preminent feature in all of them.

It seems that's the case, so I might look elsewhere to satisfy my guerrilla needs.

As a side note, even Mark Herman said he doesn't like negotiation and still he designed Churchill.
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Brian Train
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Well, to refer to your original post, you should look to Colonial Twilight: The French-Algerian War, 1954-62 for your guerrilla needs under the COIN system.
No negotiations there at all!
(well, the game is assumed to be ended by peace negotiations if you make it all the way to the final propaganda round with no one getting a victory, but that is beyond your control)

Brian
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Vez A
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Wolverutto wrote:
So, do all coin games involve negotiation between players?
Of course, the 2-player one doesn't but lately I've decided I hate negotiation in boardgames.
I've only so far played A Distant Plain, quite liked it actually. But...!
Could it be that the background to this question is that, in your game of ADP, you were either the Taliban or the Warlords and the Govt and Coalition players negotiated to land a really really heavy double-blow on you?

That does happen in ADP, yes, and many a Taliban player has been in the receiving end of such a move, occasionally the Warlords as well.

Whether that type of negotiation is typical to a COIN game, well, it depends on which volume you are playing. For example, Fire in the Lake has a similar faction dynamic as ADP. In a game like Cuba Libre, the deals have a different character.
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