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Subject: Chapter 2 Haunt 11 question (spoilers) rss

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Tim Gaines
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So have played a few chapters and loving it so far. We hit a point of chapter 2 in haunt 11: the binding where the game became unwinable for the heros and would be curious to hear others opinions.

The traitor ended up on the same tile as the cult leader and all the inhabitant tiles were drawn so they could not be moved. Everytime the traitor dies they get reset to critical values at the start of their turn and can always defend the inhabitant from being attacked.

Our game it reached a point where there was only 1 hero left alive who could of course only do 1 attack, get blocked by the traitor, who died, on their turn reset themselves. Rinse, wash, repeat. With no way to stop them coming back the game ended on a stalemate until the traitor got lucky and ground the hero down while defending.

Did we miss something? Sure not ending up 1v1 would have been ideal but it just seemed a bit anticlimactic as after quite an epic chase around the house to find the correct leader etc, what could have been an epic turn around just turned a bit...shit?
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Rob Daviau
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Nope, you didn't miss anything. We did. And I'm sorry. What a bad Chapter 2.

One of the writers pointed out this bug yesterday and I was hoping that no one would hit it. It took less than 24 hours.

It should read "REACTION: The beginning of your turn. If you are dead, YOU MAY RETURN ONE CULTIST ON A TILE TO THE BOX to stand your figure back up and set all your traits to critical. etc. etc."

If the traitor had no more cultists, they can't resurrect. If they had a lot left, they could summon more and bring the game to a fast conclusion in their favor.

I'm hoping this is the only thing we missed. Sorry again.
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Tim Gaines
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Thanks for getting back to me Rob! It's okay, just after a long evening of playing, those who died were getting a bit restless of when the stalemate might end... other than that, absolutely loving it and that haunt was otherwise a good challenge of deduction!

I've added a bit of flavour to the story of the house and it will just be part of our story. I guess we probably wouldn't have noticed the bug if the haunt played out a bit different (and there is only so much playtesting that can be done...)


We were aware of the rule of "if it seems broken, you are reading it wrong" but just couldn't work out what was wrong at the time and no set of FAQs to fall back on like we had for Pandemic S1.

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seppi
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Thank you Rob!

This one just hit our game and we could not get around the "broken factor". The errata makes everything right again... phew
 
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Pete Grey
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Question related to this, same haunt.

Does the inhabitant that becomes the cult leader become a traitor controlled character? (Can you move them? Attack? Etc) This was a little confusing. I didn’t see anything directly pointing to a yes or no, but figured once they became a cult leader, the traitor should be able to control them similar to how they control the cultists.
 
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Rob Daviau
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The cult leader is trying to stay hidden and is not a monster. He's the traitor's boss and you can't order around your boss.
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Pete Grey
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Thank you for the speedy clarification.

BTW, we’re really loving the whole journey of this game.

 
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Rob Pearson
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We also broke it tonight. It still played out ok though and the traitor would have won regardless she didn’t realize she could resurrect every time so she lost a couple of rounds. Traitor ended up dying after I tried to drink for the chalice and failed and someone else died to beasts event running around outside looking for the last tile to move the inhabitant. We also didn’t realize inhabitants move right away either!
 
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Jack D
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We ran into this last night as well. The strategy our hero devised was to stick to the tile (not sure of the name) that allows you to bury an item and draw a new one. He was going to repeat this until he got the bells, which allowed him to move the Cult Leader and the Traitor to different locations, after which he could attack the Cult Leader. This would take quite some turns as the Bells had already been used (and subsequently buried) earlier in the game.

Unfortunately for the Hero (and lucky for me, the traitor) this tile was right next to the tile with the Cult Leader and the traitor, so I just went for it, attacked him and managed to defeat him before the Bells came up.

Good to hear this was not the intention, even though we still had a great time with the game again
 
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Jeremy Springfield
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Has anyone beaten this haunt? Is it even possible? Our Haunt 11 happened in Chapter 2 and was brutal.

The traitor in a 4 player game immediately killed a hero on their first action (one shot kill with the Pitchfork outside). My hero died from insanity after making two attempts to search an Inhabitant room for clues (Yellow family is weak in Sanity, and had already taken sanity damage). The last hero was critical in mental and physical so guessed and attacked an inhabitant at random. Had they not attacked they would have been killed the next round. We were able to reveal one clue out of 6. All of this happened in 2 rounds of play. The haunt was revealed and we took two turns each and promptly lost.

Interestingly the Traitor never attacked with a single cultist. This haunt was so brutally difficult they didn't need to. Cultists were exclusively used as small obstacles and only two cultists moved. The hero's were able to kill only two cultists.

It seems like this haunt was built to be unwinnable. Which for anyone who has played haunt 1 is no surprise. Unfortunately we had two new players with us who were not expecting to play a haunt were the hero's had no chance of winning. The new player who died first didn't care, he was entertained by the carnage. The other new player felt like this haunt would be difficult to play, but we might have a chance. When the Traitor set out all the cultists, the other new player immediately changed their mind and expressed that mechanically we had no chance of winning. From that point on till the end of the game their comments all included or were exclusively about how this set up was unwinnable. They did not enjoy this haunt and it negatively impacted their opinion of the game. He felt we were being railroaded.

That is not a feeling I share. While I wouldn't say that I liked this haunt, the overall story is so compelling to me that I don't care about the outcomes of any given haunt. I'm perfectly happy to experience the story and relish the looks on other players faces when I rip up cards. I've woven a ton of local lore into my copy of the game. We are playing this game in Framingham Ma, on Salem's End Road (in this case). Our families are (mostly) named after local families involved in the Salem Witch trials and King Phillips War. For example I've been playing the Yellow house and named them Eames in the prologue, and in chapters 1 and 2 I've drawn the War Veteran calling card. IRL the Eames family were victims of King Phillips war. Which happened about 10 (ish) years before the game starts. Real history and game events are interwoven in a really fun way.

As a QA Engineer, the mechanics of this scenario are a bit fascinating to me. Is the way this haunt played out a bug, a flaw, or working as intended? It would be interesting to know the pass/fail rate on this Haunt. Does it ever set up as unwinnable for the Traitor? Could our game have turned out this way due to bad luck (the Red traitor had a POWERFUL weapon with a strong might attack VS the blue player weak to might attacks)? Have any groups breezed through haunt 11 in their game? Has Haunt 11 ever been beat at all?
 
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fba827 fba827
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jtspring wrote:
Has anyone beaten this haunt? Is it even possible? Our Haunt 11 happened in Chapter 2 and was brutal.

The traitor in a 4 player game immediately killed a hero on their first action (one shot kill with the Pitchfork outside). My hero died from insanity after making two attempts to search an Inhabitant room for clues (Yellow family is weak in Sanity, and had already taken sanity damage). The last hero was critical in mental and physical so guessed and attacked an inhabitant at random. Had they not attacked they would have been killed the next round. We were able to reveal one clue out of 6. All of this happened in 2 rounds of play. The haunt was revealed and we took two turns each and promptly lost.

Interestingly the Traitor never attacked with a single cultist. This haunt was so brutally difficult they didn't need to. Cultists were exclusively used as small obstacles and only two cultists moved. The hero's were able to kill only two cultists.

It seems like this haunt was built to be unwinnable. Which for anyone who has played haunt 1 is no surprise. Unfortunately we had two new players with us who were not expecting to play a haunt were the hero's had no chance of winning. The new player who died first didn't care, he was entertained by the carnage. The other new player felt like this haunt would be difficult to play, but we might have a chance. When the Traitor set out all the cultists, the other new player immediately changed their mind and expressed that mechanically we had no chance of winning. From that point on till the end of the game their comments all included or were exclusively about how this set up was unwinnable. They did not enjoy this haunt and it negatively impacted their opinion of the game. He felt we were being railroaded.

That is not a feeling I share. While I wouldn't say that I liked this haunt, the overall story is so compelling to me that I don't care about the outcomes of any given haunt. I'm perfectly happy to experience the story and relish the looks on other players faces when I rip up cards. I've woven a ton of local lore into my copy of the game. We are playing this game in Framingham Ma, on Salem's End Road (in this case). Our families are (mostly) named after local families involved in the Salem Witch trials and King Phillips War. For example I've been playing the Yellow house and named them Eames in the prologue, and in chapters 1 and 2 I've drawn the War Veteran calling card. IRL the Eames family were victims of King Phillips war. Which happened about 10 (ish) years before the game starts. Real history and game events are interwoven in a really fun way.

As a QA Engineer, the mechanics of this scenario are a bit fascinating to me. Is the way this haunt played out a bug, a flaw, or working as intended? It would be interesting to know the pass/fail rate on this Haunt. Does it ever set up as unwinnable for the Traitor? Could our game have turned out this way due to bad luck (the Red traitor had a POWERFUL weapon with a strong might attack VS the blue player weak to might attacks)? Have any groups breezed through haunt 11 in their game? Has Haunt 11 ever been beat at all?


There is a playthrough video with this haunt and the heroes won

Betrayal in general varies greatly based on item cards in play, tiles in play, placement of tiles , and placement of people.... not to mention die roll randomness during the haunt. So any of those things could have contributed to making it harder for you.

Not having played that haunt I can’t give personal experience or it though.


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Rob Daviau
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Absolutely zero haunts were designed to give a side an advantage. Although we have some surprises in haunts (like the prologue), there was never an intentional plan to favor one side over another, let alone railroad.
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Jeremy Springfield
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Oh neat! I will go and see if I can find that play-through. The difference between the two will be so interesting.
 
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Jeremy Springfield
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RobDaviau wrote:
Absolutely zero haunts were designed to give a side an advantage. Although we have some surprises in haunts (like the prologue), there was never an intentional plan to favor one side over another, let alone railroad.


Interesting. I'd like to find out if his opinion on the game changes over time. If he ends up being on the winning side in a future haunt, and not having as much of a problem, that would be telling.
 
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Jeremy Springfield
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fba827 wrote:

There is a playthrough video with this haunt and the heroes won


The Geek and Sundry play-through features Haunt 11. The difference in style between the Traitor in my game and the traitor on the channel is night and day. On G&S the traitor hurls Cutlists at the players. I counted at least 10+ cultists dieing by failing when attacking heros. A few more were killed by attacks which heros made. This mathematically makes sense. If cultists are rolling 2 dice when attacking and players 4 dice to defend the cultists will take at least one point of damage most of the time and should lose.

By keeping the cultists separate, not moving them, and by not attacking the hero's with them the Traitor in our game prevented the loss of cultists. Which could be used as resources. They forced the players to make attacks and searches. A high number (a statistically reasonable but unfortunate amount) of hero attacks and searches failed, damaging (and removing) heros. By forcing the players make rolls, it made the heros risk the damage from failure.

Our traitor picked the best possible offense, which was defense (and a really sharp pitchfork). The player's, and I, mistook an excellent strategy for an impossible scenario. Bravo to the traitor!
 
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Gunther Schmidl
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Hm. The game says monsters can only do actions they're specifically allowed to do, and this haunt does not mention they can attack.

e: see below
 
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Rob Daviau
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The Cultists have an ATTACK action in their monster box...
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Gunther Schmidl
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RobDaviau wrote:
The Cultists have an ATTACK action in their monster box...


Great! Then our traitor couldn't read
 
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Mark MacVicar
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We beat it and I just watched another group beat it.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
our Traitor didn’t understand his powers and decided not to bring it to table for clarification. I advised the Traitor in the second game just in case, and they came within one turn of winning, but lost due to a bad die roll. They were tough, might 7 with a sickle cultists stacked on runes. I left assuming they had it in the bag

The cultists are an annoyance and are useful to give penalties. If they can kill the heroes, the heroes are in bad shape.
 
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Amanda W
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Our heroes won haunt 11 tonight. A few things that I think helped:

Five players, with yellow as the traitor. This meant the heroes had the red family on their side, with their better-than-average might and an heirloomed sickle on hand (as well as the Savage calling for another combat option).

The cultists only have a Might of 2, and our traitor player was whiffing his attack rolls with them.

We lucked out with which number tokens we revealed on the Inhabitants. Two on one for the same value as one on the second, so we took a gamble that the second card was going to have the higher value (and we were right), so we only searched a few times before we went to full combat.

Combat was still rough. If the cultists hadn't rolled so poorly, we might have lost as we were rolling almost as poorly (just with more dice). At least two of the heroes were on critical stats by the time we succeeded. Effective movement was difficult with all those cultists around, and our traitor kept summoning more right around us. But we managed to take out the traitor, and while he was downed took out the Cult Leader before the traitor could revive and summon again.
 
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Jeff Wong
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We just played through this one tonight. Found this thread through the same issue stated above, and was glad to see it was resolved.

Ran into another oddity here: The heroes ended up doing a hit and run tactic - there seemed to be nothing stopping them from talking to the cult leader after attempting to attack her, and she would kindly show them to the nearest landing, with no chance of retaliation.

Was there something else we missed?
 
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Nick Lim
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Spoiler (click to reveal)

Well the farmhand could also be the cult leader so it's the luck of the draw I guess although narrative-wise it would be weird for the cook to still talk to the heroes after they tried to murder her... "Oh you tried to murder me. It's all good, let me go ahead and show you around the mansion"...
 
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AJ Harris
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Our group of Heroes completely destroyed this Haunt. It was over before the Traitor even had a turn (which is...unfun). We were playing a five player game and the first two Heroes were near enough to the farmhand’s tiles to search and succeed both times after dispatching the cultists in the room with ease. We flipped a 7 and a 6. We collectively thought...SURELY he is the traitor. The next player went and killed him. Game over.

It was odd...
 
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Scott
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There was much confusion about this haunt. Specifically:

Spoiler (click to reveal)

- can the Heroes attack the Monsters? (we concluded yes, and did so to allow more movement to get to searchable tiles)


This was the first haunt our heroes won.
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Our Heroes were laser-focussed on searching and flipping tokens. Our Traitor invoked a few monsters to one of our Heroes and he was effectively trapped on the tile, basically a sitting duck for the Traitor to attack. The other Heroes rushed about flipping number tokens until we were ready to take a gamble on guessing the cult leader. Ultimately we got lucky and flipped a low number for one Inhabitant and a high number for the other, so when we brutally attacked that Inhabitant it was over in a flash.

I think this haunt could do well to tell the Traitor a tiny bit more about the number tokens and ideal distribution. For instance, a distribution of tokens, say 3,6,7 on one and 1,4,10 on the other ... the Traitor might get lucky and get the 3 and 10 flipped. The Heroes might look at it and think the 10 is obvious, but be wrong. As it was, our Traitor did not intuit the idea of a couple decoy large numbers that ultimately lose.


I think the balance is a bit off, but in favor of the Heroes.
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Many indicate that the monsters are not playing very hard on the attack. I think if a monsters got a bonus Might die for other monsters being on a tile, monsters might attack more?
 
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Scott
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Wow. I just read the Traitor's Tome for this haunt, and much of what I said was wrong. I think this haunt is probably well-balanced.

Spoiler (click to reveal)

Our traitor never used Invoke:Bring Damnation. And she did not keep a "reserve" of cultists ready to be Invoked:Summon.

Basically, it sounds like the ideal traitor move is to move to be line of sight from a Hero, Invoke:Summon, and next turn Invoke:Bring Damnation. Of course, the line of sight surprise is only useful once but you can still set several traps this way; laid out strategically I'd think that most houses are fairly attack prone.


This game is soooooo amazing. We're just starting out journey but wow.
 
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