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Subject: Prototype Rules: Advanced Combat System (à la Giochix) rss

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Éric Hupin
Canada
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Hello,

In older Prototype versions, there used to be advanced combat rules, not unlike those in the Giochix version. They are in the French rulebook from two years ago, on this site, and somewhere on the Italian forum, but they have not made it into the current ruleset, nor have I ever seen them in English.

I am referring to [Sorry, I needed to edit this after the first replies]:

Light Infantry (LINF): every sacrificed unit gives +1 on 1d6; after receiving 1 hit, they are eliminated.

Heavy infantry (HINF): every unit can absorb 1 hit; after receiving a 2nd hit, they are downgraded to a LINF.

Cavalry (CAV): They inflict +1 hit ; after receiving a hit, they are downgraded to a HINF

Archers (ARC): they shoot first ; (field battle) they hit with 5-6 on 1d6 ; (assault) attack hits with 6 on 1d6, defense hists with 4-6 on 1d6 ; last unit to be removed, after receiving one hit, they are eliminated.

Are there plans to include them, either in their original form or in some adapted one?

Regards and thanks
 
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Michele Quondam
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Yep, I made that system and it wasn't in original prototype ruleset.

When I developed the new system, I put it in the new Giochix rules, as the idea was to keep the prototype as in its original form.
 
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Nicola Iannone
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Many have asked me if it is possible to implement the Giochix combat system in the prototype regulation ... someone is already trying, see for example the Spanish mixed regulation: http://labsk.net/index.php?topic=217207.0

In theory, by reading and hypothesizing, the Giochix combat system can easily be integrated into the prototype regulation, we only need to consider that the military units have a space occupied in PV as in the prototype regulation (and therefore remain my rules for the load capacity of the vehicles of transport), but when they fight they have the skills of the Giochix regulation.

So for example, the level 1 galley would have 20 cargo capacity and could carry 1 knight, 1 heavy infantryman, 1 archer and 2 light infantry ... In FV it would be 10+5+3+1+1 ... or 2 knights 10+10 FV (it's more realistic historically because a knight in that period had to have 2 warhorses, 2-4 ride-ups for travel and all the equipment and staff to help him. The light infantryman and the archer instead had a fairly light burden).

Then you should decide what to do with the empire cards and the technologies that influence the combat ... you could merge some skills of one and the other.
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Éric Hupin
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Will re-write and make it worth reading... Sorry!
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Éric Hupin
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Hudson
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Instead a few elegant and concise rulings, this Spanish rulebox opens yet another world of possibilities.

Simplicity and balance are key, as these define the current system. Ideally, changes to the existing game should be minimal. Cargo capacity is one step in that direction. Ditto for reinforcements and the units fighting values. As interesting as advanced combat rules may sound, the more I think of them, the more reservations I have.

Quote:
Light Infantry (LINF): every sacrificed unit gives +1 on 1d6; after receiving 1 hit, they are eliminated.
Heavy infantry (HINF): every unit can absorb 1 hit; after receiving a 2nd hit, they are downgraded to a LINF.
Cavalry (CAV): they inflict +1 hit ; after receiving a hit, they are downgraded to a HINF
Archers (ARC): they shoot first ; (field battle) they hit with 5-6 on 1d6 ; (assault) attack hits with 6 on 1d6, defense hists with 4-6 on 1d6 ; last unit to be removed, after receiving one hit, they are eliminated.

Regarding the above system, perhaps there is something I do not understand well, but my biggest reservations are about the sacrificing of the LINF, and the very few hits HINF and CAV can take before being downgraded.

1.Sacrificing LINF is both too little and too much.
A)Too little: Sacrificing an actual unit (i.e. receiving 1 hit) in order to possibly inflict 1 more hit does not sound like a good business case. Especially since there will be an additional loss of ½ unit. Example: Red sacrifices 6 LINF to gain a +6 on 1d6 against Blue. Both roll “4”. Red wins 4+6=10 against Blue. Blue loses 6 units. Red loses 3 more. So Red won, but lost more units than Blue.
B) Too much I. During an Assault, defending units are worth 10 attacking ones (roughly speaking). This makes assaulting a well-defended fortification an alternative to suicide. Being able to sacrifice LINF can completely upset this balance.
C) Too much II. Sacrificing LINF can wipe out HINF and CAV in no time. As soon as one side is out of LINF, the other can (and should) sacrifice as many as possible. Example: Sacrificing 6 LINF to gain a +6 on 1d6, means automatic victory and inflicting, on average, 6 hits. Since a CAV has 3 steps before being eliminated (CAV → HINF → LINF → RIP), everyone would trade 2 CAV for 6 LINF + 3 more hits.

2. A HINF can absorb one hit, and then another before becoming a LINF, this means taking a hit is worth 4 LINF. A Cavalry can inflict one damage, but since it downgrades to a HINF with the first hit, this ability is worth 5 LINF or 1 HINF.

Note: The above system implied LINF were worth 3 units, while the Prototype has them at 1. This makes more sense for the above rules, but it has other implications that change the Prototype reference system.

I recall passers-by, on this site many months ago, who concluded that the optimal army would have 1 CAV, 1 HINF, 1 ARC and a ton of LINF. I can only agree with them.

I should not criticise without bringing possible solutions:
a) Limit the sacrifices to a single unit.
b) Make it +2 instead of +1
c) Increase the hits that both CAV and HINF can take before downgrading.

And now, more options: here are the Spanish adaptations (from Ferdinand):

Units have a bonus and an ability (same as those from Giochix):
LINF: +0 to dice roll, Sacrificed +1 on 1d6
ARC: +0 to dice roll, shoot and inflict hits first.
HINF: +1 to dice roll, absorb damage, become LINF on second hit.
CAV: +2 to dice roll, extra damage after combat. Eliminated on second hit.
CAPT: Level I = 1d4, II = 1d6, III = 1d8. Level = Number of attacks. No Captain : 1d4 / 2 , rounded up.


And why not, here is my own little token of creativity:

1.On the current model, CAV chooses, before dice roll, between 1 extra damage, whatever the combat result, or 2 extra damages in case of a win.
2.When at first, I heard there would be advanced combat, I don’t know why, but I envisaged something akin to Axis&Allies. Since, this was not the case, I am thus currently devising (breaking my head is more accurate) a system à la Axis&Allies. If anyone is interested, ideas and solutions are most welcome!

We can see how this evolved into the current Giochix system. Such a system can probably be incorporated without impacting too much the current prototype rules, but the question remains how ? (The Assault rules, the unit values, and the Heroin card come to mind.)

Nicola, you must have played many games ; I am pretty sure you have given some thought to this, any insights you could share with us ?

Grazie
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Éric Hupin
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Hudson
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Hello,

This thread is becoming a one-way street, but just in case...

The goal is to take advantage from the game components diversity, but without encumbering the game flow, and while preserving the existing framework as much as possible.

In this proposal (I stole with pride from everyone: Michele Q., Chaos AD, etc), the units strength remain the same, transportation is not affected, nor are the Empire cards (I think/hope). However, Barbarians, being limited to archers and light infantries, might suffer from it. Thus we should maybe devise a special power for them. Or, more simply, for the time being, only apply the following combat system to battles between players. Also, it might perhaps be possible for both sides to use the same powers simultaneously (no incontested unit type), once per figurine/miniature/sculpt.

Field Battle:

Option I

Light Infantry: worth 1 army unit. No special ability. When they receive one hit, they are removed from play.

Archer: worth 3 army units. Fires before others. Hits with 5+ on 1d6 (*). When they receive one hit, they are replaced with 2 light infantries. (*) If this is too strong, perhaps they should hit with 6 on 1d6, or with 7+ on 1d8.

Heavy Infantry: worth 5 army units. Absorbs the first hit. When they receive a second hit, they are replaced with 1 archer and 1 light infantry.

Cavalry: worth 10 army units. Either inflicts 1 hit automatically, or 2 hits in case of a victorious die roll (must be decided prior to die rolls). When they receive 1 hit, they are replaced with 1 heavy infantry, 1 archer, and 1 light infantry.

Option II

Captain: Once per combat per captain, re-roll an unlucky 1d6, BUT in case of a loss from the aforesaid re-roll, the captain loses a level (or gets removed from play if level I).

Option III

Artillery Duel: if both sides have artillery, then an artillery duel takes place, just like those during a siege.

Voilà!

Happy gaming,

Éric
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