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Subject: Don't Stop Believing - a review of TitE rss

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Richard Miller
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Perhaps you could hang from the ceiling in a harness like Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible to play the hard-to-reach part of the map.
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Alan Emrich wrote:

Quote:
I for one would have preferred smaller hexes and thus a smaller map, even if it did fit my table.
There is an old proverb that "God cannot please everyone either by making it rain or stopping it." We made the hexes and counters the size we wanted that worked for us; personally, I'm LONG past the day of squinting at little 1/2" counters jammed with data points...
Hallelujah!

Quote:

Now, that said, it is my hope and plan (time permitting -- and on a project this size, time is a much-used resource) to carve out a series of "Battle for ________" mini-games using this engine. These would not be the introductory wargames that Battle for Moscow was, but close.

They would share standard rules, have their own exclusive rules, and look at smaller campaigns like Sicily, Italy, Greece / Crete, etc. Oh, yes, and Moscow. I have the "Reverse ETO Battle for Moscow II" game pretty much blocked out to use as the template for the others. And a small air game that only covers the Battle for Britain in alpha. But those are all a long way in the future, I reckon.
Double hallelujah! The future's so bright, I gotta wear non-magnifying shades!
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Terry Lewis
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RichardM3333 wrote:
Perhaps you could hang from the ceiling in a harness like Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible to play the hard-to-reach part of the map.
I've seen similar ideas kicked around before. Some modified concepts from suspending tables from the ceiling? A recent thread discussed that.

Rails and tracks???


If some one is going to design and publish a simulation that is so large no one can reach the center from the edges, then coming at it from above seems the only solution.

I will be interested in seeing what some one invents, but it won't be for my game room!!!! shake
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Alan Emrich
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Quote:
publish a simulation
Actually, it is not A simulation, but several, each of which you CAN reach across. It is only when you put them all together, physically, which we are making it possible to do, that there will be a problem. Each individual volume is fine ergonomically, however.
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Terry Lewis
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Alan Emrich wrote:
Quote:
publish a simulation
Actually, it is not A simulation, but several, each of which you CAN reach across. It is only when you put them all together, physically, which we are making it possible to do, that there will be a problem. Each individual volume is fine ergonomically, however.
Alan, my use of "simulation" was shorthand for "historical conflict simulation " ["war game"] as in "Simulation Publications Inc." [SPI] as per Jim Dunnigan's use of the term since the early 1970s and others use of the term in the hobby for decades.

I understand putting maps together -- each "volume" or "simulation" such as the multiple titles of David Schroder's current Der Weltkrieg WWI series, for example, are definitely "ergonomically " sound on their own, as is TitE, as are other "traditional monster games" which I have in my collection [e.g., DNO/UNT (GDW 1973), War in Europe /East/West (SPI 1975/76), Fire in the East / Scorched Earth / Urals (GDW 1980s updates), Wellington's Victory (both SPI 1976 & TSR 1983), Terrible Swift Sword (Great Battles of the American Civil War Series; SPI 1976/TSR 1983; Highway to the Reich (SPI 1976), Wacht am Rhine (SPI 1977), First World War (SPI 1977 Module I -- Uses the 9 Maps from War In Europe, WW II), etc.].

The "ergonomic" problem of not being able to reach the middle of a simulation occurs when a "super monster" is set up such as the whole Europa Series [GDW] on WWII, or all of the Der Weltkrieg WWI series. That is what prompted some discussion in recent BGG threads about inventing some way to reach the center of such "super monsters" or "super" historical conflict simulations from overhead.

I will enjoy seeing what some gamers might invent to access a super monster sim from above, but not for my game room. I prefer smaller set ups for my sims. That is why I have all of David Schroder's WWI Der Weltkrieg sims EXCEPT The Grand Campaign that connects them altogether in one "super monster." Several of the individual simulations or "Volumes" in the Der Weltkrieg series have multiple maps -- when they are all put together it is a VERY large simulation, but still an historical conflict simulation, albeit a "super monster." I will play my sims "volume" by "volume," title by title, perhaps even including Thunder in the East by itself one day down the road.

I enjoy a number of two mappers, three mappers, four mappers, five mappers -- these don't feel too "monsterous" to me and all these simulations are ergonomically fine, as I expect TitE to be -- ITS NOT REALLY THAT BIG!
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Alek P.
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Can we at least agree that it’s the biggest one in the last 38 years? That’s something.
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Terry Lewis
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Imaginary Star wrote:
Can we at least agree that it’s the biggest one in the last 38 years? That’s something.
Nope! The current prize winner for a “super monster” has got to be the “Grand Campaign” which is a combo of all the current sims of David Schroeder's Der Weltkrieg WWI series – it is HUGE!!!!

Further more, TieE is not even the largest current multimap sim [4 maps = 44” x 50” – 2 standard maps, 2 smaller maps]. For example, to name just a few that come to mind, see the following:

Last Blitzkrieg (2016) – 6 standard maps (68" x 44”)

It Never Snows (2012) – 5 standard Maps

Ligny 1815: Last Eagles (2017) and Quatre-Bras 1815: Last Eagles (2019?) are designed to link up [Walter Vejdeovsky’s Napoleonic Eagles of France series -- [1/24/19 Edit: the info I recently received indicates that this combo will likely only consist of three maps]

1914 Twilight in the East (2007) -- 5 maps (56” x 66”)

1914: Offensive à outrance (2013) – 3 maps (44” x 48”)

Atlantic Wall (2014 / GOSS - Joe Youst) – [11/23/19 Edit: It is now my understanding that Atlantic Wall has seven maps with a 7'x 8' total footprint. Furthermore, one can play with just half of the set up and then "scroll the maps as one advances further into the campaign." Additionally, once one has advanced to the "Cobra" timeframe there is no longer a need for the "Cherbourg" map.]

Wacht Am Rhein (2005 / GOSS - Joe Youst) – 4 standard maps

Le Retour d l’Emperoreur (2011 / Dider Rouy) – 6 standard maps

The Battle of Normandy (GMT 2009) – 5 standard maps
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Sorry, forgive me for my noob question: why World in Flames not being considered?
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Alek P.
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jupiter999 wrote:
Sorry, forgive me for my noob question: why World in Flames not being considered?
It burned up completely last month.
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Perry Pender
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TCLCATSPAW8MCHS wrote:
Imaginary Star wrote:
Can we at least agree that it’s the biggest one in the last 38 years? That’s something.
Nope! The current prize winner for a “super monster” has got to be the “Grand Campaign” which is a combo of all the current sims of David Schroeder's Der Weltkrieg WWI series – it is HUGE!!!!

Further more, TieE is not even the largest current multimap sim [4 maps = 44” x 50” – 2 standard maps, 2 smaller maps]. For example, to name just a few that come to mind, see the following:

Last Blitzkrieg (2016) – 6 standard maps (68" x 44”)

It Never Snows (2012) – 5 standard Maps

Ligny 1815: Last Eagles (2017) and Quatre-Bras 1815: Last Eagles (2019?) are designed to link up [Walter Vejdeovsky’s Napoleonic Eagles of France series -- [help fill this one in for number of maps and overal dimensions folks!!]

1914 Twilight in the East (2007) -- 5 maps (56” x 66”)

1914: Offensive à outrance (2013) – 3 maps (44” x 48”)

Atlantic Wall (2014 / GOSS - Joe Youst) – [help fill this one in folks!!]

Wacht Am Rhein (2005 / GOSS - Joe Youst) – 4 standard maps

Le Retour d l’Emperoreur (2011 / Dider Rouy) – 6 standard maps
I would add to this the Death Ride Kursk system, most if not all of the modules dwarf most games. Most come with 16 to 18 x 11 inch x 17 inch map sections. so 16 maps makes a map 20.77 square feet in foot print.
The whole DRK system has a foot print of roughly 140.19 square feet, which is pretty big in any ones books.
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Alek P.
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Ok, ok, ok.

TitE the the biggest wargame relased in the last... 3.5 weeks?
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Terry Lewis
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Imaginary Star wrote:
Ok, ok, ok.

TitE the the biggest wargame relased in the last... 3.5 weeks?
Maybe . . .
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Alek P.
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Re: Don't Stop Believing - a review of TitEl
TCLCATSPAW8MCHS wrote:
Imaginary Star wrote:
Ok, ok, ok.

TitE the the biggest wargame relased in the last... 3.5 weeks?
Maybe . . .
Ok. We can print it on the front of all the TitE boxes:

“According to the wargamer of 50+ years Terry Lewis this is, maybe, the biggest wargame released in the last 3 1/2 weeks. Probably.”
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Imaginary Star wrote:
It burned up completely last month.
What happen? Tired of the game so burn it down?
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Alek P.
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jupiter999 wrote:
Imaginary Star wrote:
It burned up completely last month.
What happen? Tired of the game so burn it down?
When you call your game “World in Flames” it is just a matter of time...
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Terry Lewis
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Imaginary Star wrote:
TCLCATSPAW8MCHS wrote:
Imaginary Star wrote:
Ok, ok, ok.

TitE the the biggest wargame relased in the last... 3.5 weeks?
Maybe . . .
Ok. We can print it on the front of all the TitE boxes:

“According to the wargamer of 50+ years Terry Lewis this is, maybe, the biggest wargame released in the last 3 1/2 weeks. Probably.”
Now, now, Alek! Don't put words in my mouth, or pen, or keyboard! shake

The "probably" is your word -- I only know enough to say "maybe"!!! My background in the social and natural sciences, as well as logic and critical thinking says I don't have sufficient data for more than a tentative conclusion of "maybe"!!
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Alek P.
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TCLCATSPAW8MCHS wrote:
Imaginary Star wrote:
TCLCATSPAW8MCHS wrote:
Imaginary Star wrote:
Ok, ok, ok.

TitE the the biggest wargame relased in the last... 3.5 weeks?
Maybe . . .
Ok. We can print it on the front of all the TitE boxes:

“According to the wargamer of 50+ years Terry Lewis this is, maybe, the biggest wargame released in the last 3 1/2 weeks. Probably.”
Now, now, Alex! Don't put words in my mouth, or pen, or keyboard! shake

The "probably" is your word -- I only know enough to say "maybe"!!! My background in the social and natural sciences, as well as logic and critical thinking says I don't have sufficient data for more than a tentative conclusion of "maybe"!!
Well...

We have to add a dash of spice and intrigue to stimulate the potential buyers. We’ll just put an asterisk next to it, and put what you just said in a small print on the inside of the box.
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Terry Lewis
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Cheers! laugh
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DAVID BROWN
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Though I am all in with TitE, I have enjoyed your skillful and thought-provoking review for its insight, reading it multiple times.

I think TitE really is innovative, but in ways that feel so comfortable that we are dazzled by the polish, and experience little disorientation, such as I had with the excellent US:E and TDV. It feels like the best classical game ever. Keep writing!
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So, my oldest wargaming buddy, Stuart Martin, who has ZERO online presence, called me the other night to say he really likes this game.

He said "If this is the only game I play for the rest of my wargaming life, that would be great."

Stuart was one of those Stalingrad (AH) PBEM jockies back in the days just past carrier pigeons

We've played Russian Campaign, Russia Besieged, War without Mercy, Third Reich, The War, and USE...and now it seems ETO_TITE is just going to need to be laminated to its own dedicated 4 X 6 Table top.
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Alan Emrich
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Please thank Stuart on behalf of the entire TITE team; that is praise indeed!
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Frank Chadwick
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First off, thanks for all the kind words. I really enjoy hearing how much you guys are enjoying the game.

Second, a thought on strategic versus operational. My thinking is that each individual game is really operational in scope, at least in terms of the sort of decisions you make each turn. When you put a couple games together, the thinking starts to become strategic in scope, because you start making choices about starving one theater to feed another. The allocation of resources between theaters (particularly for the Axis but also for the Western Allies) is baked into each individual game, but the more games you have linked together, the more control you reclaim over those decisions.

Third, a word about why the scope of the games is the way it is. Originally (and this was pretty much my call)the games were going to be smaller and more numerous. An early war East Front game, a middle-late-war East Front extension, A Balkans game. A North Africa game. An Italy game. etc. Then I woke up one morning and realized how nuts that idea was. It was going to take forever to finish it, and if we weren't dead by then, most of our original buying cadre would be (or would have lost interest). I realized that if we were ever going to finish this project in a reasonable span of time (i.e. less than a decade) we had to take Big Bites. And so we are. But it means completion of the project is visible on the horizon.

To that end we also thought it was important to demo the entire game the first time we took it to ConSimWorld Expo. The finished game was not some pie-in-the-sky intention. We have the finished combined game: maps, OBs, production, the whole deal. That's not to say those will not change as we develop and tighten the game in playtesting. But it does mean we are not just doing separate campaigns with the pious hope that when we get them all done somehow the whole thing will fit together. We have a game and we are chopping it into pieces which are separately playable.

Finally, timing of releases. Originally we planned on a chronological release, starting with Poland. We scrapped that when went with bigger releases (and relegated Poland to the prequel game Dark Beginning). So why is the East first? Simple. If you are going to buy into a big system covering the war in Europe, the hardest thing to get right--and the most important in terms of the general feel of the game--is the East. If that doesn't work, nothing works. And in particular, if Barbarossa doesn't work, it's a wasted trip. So we started there, and step two is the Med, which, in terms of making combined air-land-sea stuff work, is clearly the hardest to get right.

So . . . hopefully that gives you a little more insight into our thinking on these games. I really am delighted at how much the gamers seem to be enjoying the game. We meant it as a "panzer pusher" writ large, but just because you aim for a target doesn't always mean you hit it. This time it seems like we did.


At the risk of jinxing something, I'll just say I think you are really going to like The Middle Sea.
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Brian Sielski
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Frank,

You've got a real winner here. And with the advent of VASSAL, it actually makes PALYING the combined game something that is possible. Well, at least I hope that aspect is on the table.

Good luck with the additional volumes!

Doc
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Terry Lewis
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Frank, as I have noted earlier, TitE seems like its really going to be a good one!

In the grand scheme of the overall hobby [collecting and playing historical conflict simulations or "war games"] over a fifty year stretch of time, TitE is not that big. Gamers should not let the physical size scare them away, and the reviews of those who have it and are playing seem to think that the rules are not too complex.
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DAVID BROWN
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Frank,

Thank you for sharing some of your thought process, as with your article on your design philosophy. Your writing is clear and your ideas inspire real reflection. And, of course, thank you for your [insert strong superlative] design. Based on TitE, I am very confident I will love the whole series. People are thinking very nice things about you and your team.
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