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Subject: Who is the best TTA player in the world me or petri rss

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Wu Brian
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Lets challenge him in this way:
Live blitz, digital rules, and playing 6 games at the same time.

 
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Riku Koskinen
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I played GP a few times in BGO times, and now we're on our second duel in the app. I lost the first one, and I'm almost 100% to lose this second one, but there's a couple of rounds left.

I have a way over 50% winrate in duels against random opponents (I put 35+ lvl req. to not get paired against a new player), but playing against GP is a different thing entirely. A very nice learning opportunity.

It's just two games, so I can't conclude too much about anything. I've made some observations about his play, but if he continues to accept my challenges I might write something about it with more games on which to base my comments.

Anyone who thinks they can duel pretty well in TtA should challenge GaryPan!
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Andrei Savva
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This kind of discussions, of "Who is the best player in the world"... I never seen it before on BGG. It looks... bizarre.

(Partly because I never cared about who the best player of WotR is, who the best player of Agricola is, or other games that have a competitive scene. Really, I don't care if you are the best in the world at some obscure game. But here you are, boasting in my face about it, so I had to click on the topic... Now I regret it, I lost my innocence)

Damn, it feels like a first. It feels like we, boardgamers, had such a wonderful friendly community, and now some DOTA players decided they like our stuff. It's like discovering the "Religion, Sex and Politics" subforums, or hearing your parents having sex for the first time when you are 6 years old. You want to refuse the realization you just had, or break in screaming "Get of my moooom you bastard!"
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It makes quite the change to read a 'i am the greatest' thread to then see that opinion backed up by other high level players, so kudos for that Gary
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Riku Koskinen
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BeatU wrote:
This kind of discussions, of "Who is the best player in the world"... I never seen it before on BGG. It looks... bizarre.

(Partly because I never cared about who the best player of WotR is, who the best player of Agricola is, or other games that have a competitive scene. Really, I don't care if you are the best in the world at some obscure game. But here you are, boasting in my face about it, so I had to click on the topic... Now I regret it, I lost my innocence)

Damn, it feels like a first. It feels like we, boardgamers, had such a wonderful friendly community, and now some DOTA players decided they like our stuff. It's like discovering the "Religion, Sex and Politics" subforums, or hearing your parents having sex for the first time when you are 6 years old. You want to refuse the realization you just had, or break in screaming "Get of my moooom you bastard!"
It's possible that Gary doesn't normally use English that much, and his comments can feel a bit blunt due to language barrier. I don't thinkg GP is here to brag, and instead he is genuinely interested in whether some other players have mastered TtA 2p equally well than he is.

Boardgames are "just fun" for many, and most likely GP enjoys playing TtA as much as we do. But TtA has a small enough luck factor that it can be said that most wins - especially in 2p TtA - are due to the winning player making the optimal choices in the game, at least more often than the opponent. Not necessarily true for a single game, but let's say a series of 10 duels almost certainly will lead to the player with better understanding of the game winning more than 5 of those games. And I am very interested in learning what those choices are in different situations. It's not about becoming the best player, but instead understanding how to play the game as optimally as possible. I've been involved with this game for so long, and I am interested in any TtA-related strategy.

GPs quest to find a worthy challenger can be considered the same as those who through considerable effort maxed out the Caverna 1p challenge score. At least I am enough involved with TtA that I want to know what are the true best ways to approach each game state, just like it was interesting to see the lines to max out Caverna points. Playing with GaryPan is very interesting as some things he does are different to my own choices, and I have played countless of times old and new TtA. Finding new, different, and better ways to approach situations that I've previously considered no-brainer after all these years is amazing.
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Padish wrote:
BeatU wrote:
This kind of discussions, of "Who is the best player in the world"... I never seen it before on BGG. It looks... bizarre.

(Partly because I never cared about who the best player of WotR is, who the best player of Agricola is, or other games that have a competitive scene. Really, I don't care if you are the best in the world at some obscure game. But here you are, boasting in my face about it, so I had to click on the topic... Now I regret it, I lost my innocence)

Damn, it feels like a first. It feels like we, boardgamers, had such a wonderful friendly community, and now some DOTA players decided they like our stuff. It's like discovering the "Religion, Sex and Politics" subforums, or hearing your parents having sex for the first time when you are 6 years old. You want to refuse the realization you just had, or break in screaming "Get of my moooom you bastard!"
It's possible that Gary doesn't normally use English that much, and his comments can feel a bit blunt due to language barrier. I don't thinkg GP is here to brag, and instead he is genuinely interested in whether some other players have mastered TtA 2p equally well than he is.

Boardgames are "just fun" for many, and most likely GP enjoys playing TtA as much as we do. But TtA has a small enough luck factor that it can be said that most wins - especially in 2p TtA - are due to the winning player making the optimal choices in the game, at least more often than the opponent. Not necessarily true for a single game, but let's say a series of 10 duels almost certainly will lead to the player with better understanding of the game winning more than 5 of those games. And I am very interested in learning what those choices are in different situations. It's not about becoming the best player, but instead understanding how to play the game as optimally as possible. I've been involved with this game for so long, and I am interested in any TtA-related strategy.

GPs quest to find a worthy challenger can be considered the same as those who through considerable effort maxed out the Caverna 1p challenge score. At least I am enough involved with TtA that I want to know what are the true best ways to approach each game state, just like it was interesting to see the lines to max out Caverna points. Playing with GaryPan is very interesting as some things he does are different to my own choices, and I have played countless of times old and new TtA. Finding new, different, and better ways to approach situations that I've previously considered no-brainer after all these years is amazing.
Very well put Padish!
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Joe Blow
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I have played Gary a dozen times already and will write a few things about him. He loves Rich Land A above all other Ancient cards. He almost never takes Ancient Wonders (with the exception of the Library on one or two occasions) He favors Hamruabi. He favors creating a culture engine as fast as possible, and to do so will get Iron to +6 in Age 1, this helps him recover from rare successful aggression and crank out cultural assets(Age 1 library,drama, age 1 wonders). I used to think that Age 1 library and dramas were bad plays, but apparently he didn't get that memo! He does not really push military, unless he has seeded strength events, then he will go out of his way to make sure you are the one hit by them. In one game I had against him, he disbanded a bronze mine and went to +2 ore in order to create two phalanx in early age 2 to make sure I got hit by the ROT and other nasty cards. Gary fights for every territory, even when you think he doesn't have the pop to put on a territory, you will find that he does. He really likes the Ocean Liner. He seems to favor a "just in time military approach" He doesn't like to put assets in military unless it is clearly warranted. So many times I would get a huge military lead on him but he was almost always able to mitigate it. He is very resilient and landing a deathblow on him is difficult.
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Quote:
It's possible that Gary doesn't normally use English that much, and his comments can feel a bit blunt due to language barrier. I don't thinkg GP is here to brag, and instead he is genuinely interested in whether some other players have mastered TtA 2p equally well than he is.
Based on a previous thread on this same topic (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1707370/dueling-best-tta-pl...)

I would assume it's some combination of Gary trying to be playful and English not being his native language. His intermediary in that thread insists that Gary is a very friendly person. But his keyboard muscles are well-earned.

If someone thinks they can beat him, there is a very simple way to try to make him eat crow.

The fact that he's willing to accept all challengers is actually quite refreshing. I don't bother. He'd stomp on my face, and I'm not entirely sure I'd learn much from him at this point in my TtA life.

99/100 people are wasting Gary's time.

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Playing with GaryPan is very interesting as some things he does are different to my own choices, and I have played countless of times old and new TtA. Finding new, different, and better ways to approach situations that I've previously considered no-brainer after all these years is amazing.
It's so hard to look past your own experience; when somebody successfully does something different from what you believe, it can shake your very foundation of understanding of the game.

I've watched a couple of his games on YouTube, and he does a lot of things that people consider antithetical to good play. What he demonstrates is just how contextual the game is, and how most cards can fit into winning strategies.
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Riku Koskinen
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Drawdown wrote:
I have played Gary a dozen times already and will write a few things about him. He loves Rich Land A above all other Ancient cards. He almost never takes Ancient Wonders (with the exception of the Library on one or two occasions) He favors Hamruabi. He favors creating a culture engine as fast as possible, and to do so will get Iron to +6 in Age 1, this helps him recover from rare successful aggression and crank out cultural assets(Age 1 library,drama, age 1 wonders). I used to think that Age 1 library and dramas were bad plays, but apparently he didn't get that memo! He does not really push military, unless he has seeded strength events, then he will go out of his way to make sure you are the one hit by them. In one game I had against him, he disbanded a bronze mine and went to +2 ore in order to create two phalanx in early age 2 to make sure I got hit by the ROT and other nasty cards. Gary fights for every territory, even when you think he doesn't have the pop to put on a territory, you will find that he does. He really likes the Ocean Liner. He seems to favor a "just in time military approach" He doesn't like to put assets in military unless it is clearly warranted. So many times I would get a huge military lead on him but he was almost always able to mitigate it. He is very resilient and landing a deathblow on him is difficult.
Exactly! As I haven't played that much with him yet, I didn't want to spell these out as I didn't know if it was just variance.

Lack of age A wonder, early culture production, and making military only if it's strongly warranted is what I didn't consider myself as something that should generally be the approach.

I'm going to use his "tools" in future games and let's see how he changes - if changes at all - the playstyle based on his opponent's actions.
 
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Joe Blow
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Another thing about his play is that he doesn't go out of his way to get the 5th CA until age 2. Only once did I see him take Col. I do believe that the only way to beat Gary is to play like him, if you try to go for strong military to counter him you will be lucky to win 10 percent of the time.
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Martin
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Which leaders does he usually choose?
 
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Joe Blow
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Ham and Leo are his favorites. Age 2 and 3 he is more balanced and I can't say he has a favorite. I never saw him pay 3CA for Nap, even when way behind in military.
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Andrew Norgren
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josqvin wrote:
Gary, when you play a high level match against a good opponent, how much time do you take per turn on average? Do you spend 20-30 min like a chess player? I noticed that on the app you only seem to take a few seconds for each turn against me, but I am not very high ranking.
Tta is not like chess, because much of the information is evolving. You don't need 20 mins if you have played many games and can intuit what matters. In fact, I would go so far to say tta is really all about efficient ignoring of confounding variables.
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Aaron Green
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I am very curious about this. These strategies value different cards than most all expert level players (particularly Rich Land A, not taking ancient wonders, creating culture engine with Age 1 library or drama, not pushing military).

Are these possible strategies that are overlooked in 3-4 player games by high level players? Or would these strategies only work in 2 player, but not 3-4 player? If so, why?

I will second the notion that Gary is the best 2 player TTA player. I recently beat him in the expansion testing with 2, but it's rare for me to do so. I don't think I would say Gary is the best player in the world. I'm not saying he isn't, either, but there are at least a handful of high level players who regularly beat Gary in 3 or 4 player games. But Gary really focuses on 2 player games while most other top players focus on 3-4 player games. I'm not sure what would happen if more did 2 player, or if Gary did more 3-4 player, but I would agree he is the toughest 2 player match out there!


Drawdown wrote:
I have played Gary a dozen times already and will write a few things about him. He loves Rich Land A above all other Ancient cards. He almost never takes Ancient Wonders (with the exception of the Library on one or two occasions) He favors Hamruabi. He favors creating a culture engine as fast as possible, and to do so will get Iron to +6 in Age 1, this helps him recover from rare successful aggression and crank out cultural assets(Age 1 library,drama, age 1 wonders). I used to think that Age 1 library and dramas were bad plays, but apparently he didn't get that memo! He does not really push military, unless he has seeded strength events, then he will go out of his way to make sure you are the one hit by them. In one game I had against him, he disbanded a bronze mine and went to +2 ore in order to create two phalanx in early age 2 to make sure I got hit by the ROT and other nasty cards. Gary fights for every territory, even when you think he doesn't have the pop to put on a territory, you will find that he does. He really likes the Ocean Liner. He seems to favor a "just in time military approach" He doesn't like to put assets in military unless it is clearly warranted. So many times I would get a huge military lead on him but he was almost always able to mitigate it. He is very resilient and landing a deathblow on him is difficult.
 
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Joe Blow
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I think his ability to evaluate territory's as one of his best skills and he can take full advantage of that skill in a duel, probably in a three or four player game that skill isn't quite as useful due to having to be careful of the turn order. Also you can't ignore military as much in a three or four player game due to the possibility of chain aggressions. I only have one win against him myself (with 10 losses) so take my evaluation of his game with a grain of salt.
 
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Wu Brian
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aarongreen50 wrote:
I am very curious about this. These strategies value different cards than most all expert level players (particularly Rich Land A, not taking ancient wonders, creating culture engine with Age 1 library or drama, not pushing military).

Are these possible strategies that are overlooked in 3-4 player games by high level players? Or would these strategies only work in 2 player, but not 3-4 player? If so, why?

I will second the notion that Gary is the best 2 player TTA player. I recently beat him in the expansion testing with 2, but it's rare for me to do so. I don't think I would say Gary is the best player in the world. I'm not saying he isn't, either, but there are at least a handful of high level players who regularly beat Gary in 3 or 4 player games. But Gary really focuses on 2 player games while most other top players focus on 3-4 player games. I'm not sure what would happen if more did 2 player, or if Gary did more 3-4 player, but I would agree he is the toughest 2 player match out there!


Drawdown wrote:
I have played Gary a dozen times already and will write a few things about him. He loves Rich Land A above all other Ancient cards. He almost never takes Ancient Wonders (with the exception of the Library on one or two occasions) He favors Hamruabi. He favors creating a culture engine as fast as possible, and to do so will get Iron to +6 in Age 1, this helps him recover from rare successful aggression and crank out cultural assets(Age 1 library,drama, age 1 wonders). I used to think that Age 1 library and dramas were bad plays, but apparently he didn't get that memo! He does not really push military, unless he has seeded strength events, then he will go out of his way to make sure you are the one hit by them. In one game I had against him, he disbanded a bronze mine and went to +2 ore in order to create two phalanx in early age 2 to make sure I got hit by the ROT and other nasty cards. Gary fights for every territory, even when you think he doesn't have the pop to put on a territory, you will find that he does. He really likes the Ocean Liner. He seems to favor a "just in time military approach" He doesn't like to put assets in military unless it is clearly warranted. So many times I would get a huge military lead on him but he was almost always able to mitigate it. He is very resilient and landing a deathblow on him is difficult.
Can you name a some top 3-4p players, maybe I can play with them
 
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fayebian wrote:
aarongreen50 wrote:
I am very curious about this. These strategies value different cards than most all expert level players (particularly Rich Land A, not taking ancient wonders, creating culture engine with Age 1 library or drama, not pushing military).

Are these possible strategies that are overlooked in 3-4 player games by high level players? Or would these strategies only work in 2 player, but not 3-4 player? If so, why?

I will second the notion that Gary is the best 2 player TTA player. I recently beat him in the expansion testing with 2, but it's rare for me to do so. I don't think I would say Gary is the best player in the world. I'm not saying he isn't, either, but there are at least a handful of high level players who regularly beat Gary in 3 or 4 player games. But Gary really focuses on 2 player games while most other top players focus on 3-4 player games. I'm not sure what would happen if more did 2 player, or if Gary did more 3-4 player, but I would agree he is the toughest 2 player match out there!


Drawdown wrote:
I have played Gary a dozen times already and will write a few things about him. He loves Rich Land A above all other Ancient cards. He almost never takes Ancient Wonders (with the exception of the Library on one or two occasions) He favors Hamruabi. He favors creating a culture engine as fast as possible, and to do so will get Iron to +6 in Age 1, this helps him recover from rare successful aggression and crank out cultural assets(Age 1 library,drama, age 1 wonders). I used to think that Age 1 library and dramas were bad plays, but apparently he didn't get that memo! He does not really push military, unless he has seeded strength events, then he will go out of his way to make sure you are the one hit by them. In one game I had against him, he disbanded a bronze mine and went to +2 ore in order to create two phalanx in early age 2 to make sure I got hit by the ROT and other nasty cards. Gary fights for every territory, even when you think he doesn't have the pop to put on a territory, you will find that he does. He really likes the Ocean Liner. He seems to favor a "just in time military approach" He doesn't like to put assets in military unless it is clearly warranted. So many times I would get a huge military lead on him but he was almost always able to mitigate it. He is very resilient and landing a deathblow on him is difficult.
Can you name a some top 3-4p players, maybe I can play with them
There are so many good 3p and 4p players, but no one is much better than others, if you want to play with good players, you can just make your rank to 40+ or 45+, then you can see the rooms set up by Lao Huang, these games are good enough for almost everyone
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aarongreen50 wrote:
I recently beat him in the expansion testing with 2, but it's rare for me to do so.
I played the expansion in Essen but only the Age A/I leaders and wonders were ready.

Are the new Age II/III leaders and wonders as well as the new military cards included in the beta build?
 
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This thread is spicy and GP is zesty. I love it.
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SWxNW wrote:
Quote:
It's possible that Gary doesn't normally use English that much, and his comments can feel a bit blunt due to language barrier. I don't thinkg GP is here to brag, and instead he is genuinely interested in whether some other players have mastered TtA 2p equally well than he is.
Based on a previous thread on this same topic (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1707370/dueling-best-tta-pl...)

I would assume it's some combination of Gary trying to be playful and English not being his native language. His intermediary in that thread insists that Gary is a very friendly person. But his keyboard muscles are well-earned.

If someone thinks they can beat him, there is a very simple way to try to make him eat crow.

The fact that he's willing to accept all challengers is actually quite refreshing. I don't bother. He'd stomp on my face, and I'm not entirely sure I'd learn much from him at this point in my TtA life.

99/100 people are wasting Gary's time.

Quote:
Playing with GaryPan is very interesting as some things he does are different to my own choices, and I have played countless of times old and new TtA. Finding new, different, and better ways to approach situations that I've previously considered no-brainer after all these years is amazing.
It's so hard to look past your own experience; when somebody successfully does something different from what you believe, it can shake your very foundation of understanding of the game.

I've watched a couple of his games on YouTube, and he does a lot of things that people consider antithetical to good play. What he demonstrates is just how contextual the game is, and how most cards can fit into winning strategies.
Hi! I am the little middleman you are talking about

Regarding that very old challenge post, Professor Wolf(Gary Pan) was seeking good players to challenge him at that time. Since he can't find any more good players in BGO and the APP wasn't released at that moment, he wanted to post a challenge thread in BGG so the foreign community could notice.

He was't excel in English so I volunteered to draft a post for him. The playful and taunting manner in that post thus was totally from me. He really wanted more players to fight him seriously though so I could say it's his intention indeed... The results after I posted that thread was quite significant, I believed he did had a good time.

Professor Wolf taught many strategies to me a few years ago. He was very patient on my strange annoying newbie questions and I learnt a lot from him. I can say he is my mentor of TTA. He sometimes may be a little bit aggressive regrading his ability as he is extremely confident in this game and always claims he is the best player in the world and argue with other players. But he is indeed outrageously strong and welcome to any challenge from any people. So I think it's just a normal ego from a not just good but god player, I've seen similar attitude from professional players in other realms, it represent their determination to win every single game. Overall, he is a very nice person to play with and a trusted mentor to learn from.
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BeatU wrote:
This kind of discussions, of "Who is the best player in the world"... I never seen it before on BGG. It looks... bizarre.

(Partly because I never cared about who the best player of WotR is, who the best player of Agricola is, or other games that have a competitive scene. Really, I don't care if you are the best in the world at some obscure game. But here you are, boasting in my face about it, so I had to click on the topic... Now I regret it, I lost my innocence)

Damn, it feels like a first. It feels like we, boardgamers, had such a wonderful friendly community, and now some DOTA players decided they like our stuff. It's like discovering the "Religion, Sex and Politics" subforums, or hearing your parents having sex for the first time when you are 6 years old. You want to refuse the realization you just had, or break in screaming "Get of my moooom you bastard!"
I wish bgg had far more of these threads.
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Aaron Green
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Haha, you're in the top rung for Japhet's TCL challenge. Those are very good players, much better than the average person with 40+ rating on app (the app rating really only gives you an idea of the quantity of games people have played, not quality). If you're looking for more high level play, you should join the next round of the international championship, there are very strong players there, too.
 
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Mark van der Werf
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I played Gari about 30 times I think with him leading something like 17-13 I think.

He's a good player, probably the best I guess. Sometimes he plays quite sloppy weirdly enough but I guess it's part of his style where he tries a lot of varied things. He can play many different strategies and that is truly the way to be great at this game, know all the different strategies and their strengths and thus be able to adapt to the one that favors how the cards came out.

From the games I've faced him I tended to win when the game played out relatively 'standard', ie both going something like pyramids/library into stuff like iron/alchemy/swordsman/knights/irrigation. But his ability to play 'funky' like going quick 3 printing presses, hyperaggressive with Barbarossa etc. often got me into trouble I wasn't expecting as much. You can basically tell he played a ton and tried many things so he's very difficult to hatepick against.

As for his cocky style here, it's amusing. In the app he never says something and plays so consistently fast it almost seems like he's a bot. Heck I wouldn't be surprised if someone had just developed a bot to be great at this game, doesn't seem like the most difficult game for that.
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The most interesting thing I've gleaned from this thread is clear confirmation that the New Story is significantly different from the previous edition. The old tactics still work well, but new styles can be better.
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Joe Blow
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I thought myself that Gary plays like a super strong bot would, with the fast speed, territory evaluation and dedication to resource production.
 
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