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Gaia Project» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Factions Stats on Totoman Online rss

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There have been multiple discussions about faction strength, but most of them have been based on limited data. I don't know if anyone else has checked out the Gaia Project implementation at http://totoman.online/. It is a Chinese site with (sorta) English and (sorta) Portuguese language options. Anyway, there are apparently over a thousand 4-player games on the system, and it provides great stats.

This is the link to the 4-player games sorted by win rate: http://totoman.online/GameInfo/FactionStatistics?usercount=4...

A few thoughts jump out:

-Ivits, Itars, and Nevlas are very strong, as most of us on this board agree.
-Contrary to the conventional wisdom here, Talkons seem to be far stronger than Ambas (34% vs 26% win rate).
-Firaks (25%), and particularly Lantids (23%), are much stronger than expected.
-Gleens are by far the weakest (12%), which matches my intuition at least.
-Itars are the most popular faction, chosen in 42% of all games, whereas Lantids are the least.

Based on these stats, the tiers are:
Top: Ivits, Itars, Nevlas, Taklons
Average: Ambas, Firaks (!), Terrans, Lantids (!)
Below Average: Bal T'aks, Mad Androids, Hadsch Hallas, Geodens, Xenos
Terrible: Gleens

Of course, this data may just reflect divergent play styles or board setups. It's not clear how maps are chosen, for instance.

Thoughts?

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Jack Spirio
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That some interesting data
 
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Jack Liu
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Make sure to consider avg win rate (25% in 4p) vs avg pick rate (top 7 out of 14 races). Also avg score

A race with higher pick rate and higher win rate means it’s always good.
A race with higher win rate and lower pick rate means it’s good in the right situation
A race with lower win rate and higher pick means people think it’s good but doesn’t end up performing well enough to win (but it probably performs decently so people keep going for it. Look at avg score)
A race with lower win and lower pick is just subpar in that environment (player count/map)

Also there is a noticeable difference between player counts. Some races do much better in the 2p or 3p, vs 4p. The tweaks in FS, map and competition for limited actions can affect certain races a lot

Nice data tho, although there must be some test games because there are low scores in like the 20-30s
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Jon Kern
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Unfortunately these statistics look problematic as they appear to include faction stats if a player dropped. I don't think test games are included as the top scores are way to low to support that theory.

My main takeaway is that the average scores appear very close. The largest range is Itars (152) - Gleens (133) or 19VP. This means that the factions are possibly more balanced than the PBF games suggest.
 
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Jack Liu
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I don’t think 19 is close, that still seems a bit high for an avg. i think ~10 would be be when i consider them all close enough

I’d be really interested to see what it would be without some of the test/dropped games. The overall avgs seem to be a bit lower compared to here

Also for anyone wondering about PBF, we have some stats from PBF and another site I’ve compiled here
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/30985870#30985870
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Flo P
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Excellent find and thanks for the rundown of the key results, a somewhat large enough data set like this one is exactly what is needed to help discussing faction strength.
 
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Jack Liu
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bluesheep wrote:
Excellent find and thanks for the rundown of the key results, a somewhat large enough data set like this one is exactly what is needed to help discussing faction strength.
Agree

I particularly like the data between the different player counts, you can really see some races excel there
 
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Flo P
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A side-effect might be a rise in the use of alien acronyms, like the whole ACT/FAV/TW madness introduced by snellman XD.
 
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Jon Kern
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frotes wrote:
I don’t think 19 is close, that still seems a bit high for an avg. i think ~10 would be be when i consider them all close enough
I don't see how we could make a balance claim due to a greater than ~10 margin without a lot more games. Some factions are more complex than other which would cause them to have a lower average score despite being balanced the same is also true for easier to play factions.

Another thing that I just noticed was that both orange factions and both yellow factions according to Totoman are significantly weaker than one might expect.

This suggests to me that there is probably distortion being caused by their map generation method.
 
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James Ataei
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I tried a game on there and it starts every faction with full resources and L3 and L4 of NAV.

30 coins, 15 ore, 15 Knowledge, 15 QIC, and something like 0/0/12 power in the bowls.

I don't know if this is a checkbox or something, but I didn't see it when I started a game.

The stats are probably trash.
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Jon Kern
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JamesWolfpacker wrote:
I tried a game on there and it starts every faction with full resources and L3 and L4 of NAV.

30 coins, 15 ore, 15 Knowledge, 15 QIC, and something like 0/0/12 power in the bowls.

I don't know if this is a checkbox or something, but I didn't see it when I started a game.

The stats are probably trash.
It only does that if you start a test game. However, I'm similarly skeptical.
 
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Jack Liu
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Limitless333 wrote:
frotes wrote:
I don’t think 19 is close, that still seems a bit high for an avg. i think ~10 would be be when i consider them all close enough
I don't see how we could make a balance claim due to a greater than ~10 margin without a lot more games. Some factions are more complex than other which would cause them to have a lower average score despite being balanced the same is also true for easier to play factions.

Another thing that I just noticed was that both orange factions and both yellow factions according to Totoman are significantly weaker than one might expect.

This suggests to me that there is probably distortion being caused by their map generation method.
Good point about difficulty of factions. I think it’s one reason gray races score worst while there are more solid scores for some thing like terran. Also yellow races seem easier to play so they get high pick but also score worst.

It’s verh common for new players to go Nav so any Nav race or those that work well with Nav2 opening tend to be played more
 
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Giuseppe Antonaci
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Not being able to filter by level of players or minimum individual scores may be skewing this results.

I'm also skeptical.
 
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Helge Ostertag
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Copyright violation from some Chinese guys.thumbsdown
They didn't ask permission to run this site based on our game.thumbsdownthumbsdownthumbsdownthumbsdown
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Horologiom wrote:
Copyright violation from some Chinese guys.thumbsdown
They didn't ask permission to run this site based on our game.thumbsdownthumbsdownthumbsdownthumbsdown
Can you please tell us whether there are plans for an online version of Gaia Project? Or is the plan for there not to be one?

As you can see from the popularity of the snellman website, there's a lot of interest. I think many of us fans would just like to know one way or the other what is going to happen, so we can at least stop wondering.
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Bobrov Alexander
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Dindraug wrote:

-Contrary to the conventional wisdom here, Talkons seem to be far stronger than Ambas (34% vs 26% win rate).
I knew it!
 
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Chris Nash
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verandi wrote:
Horologiom wrote:
Copyright violation from some Chinese guys.thumbsdown
They didn't ask permission to run this site based on our game.thumbsdownthumbsdownthumbsdownthumbsdown
Can you please tell us whether there are plans for an online version of Gaia Project? Or is the plan for there not to be one?

As you can see from the popularity of the snellman website, there's a lot of interest. I think many of us fans would just like to know one way or the other what is going to happen, so we can at least stop wondering.
And would definitely be keen to be part of a playtesting group to check the functionality of such a thing!
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Jon Kern
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I want a site like snellman. The mobile apps are cool looking, but less functional and harder to derive stats from etc. I want something geared toward the completive crowd like snellman if such an app is to be developed.
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Giuseppe Antonaci
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Limitless333 wrote:
I want a site like snellman. The mobile apps are cool looking, but less functional and harder to derive stats from etc. I want something geared toward the completive crowd like snellman if such an app is to be developed.
I do like the implementation of TM from Boardgamearena, but I agree that not having access to game statistics is a loss.
They could at least offer a file with all games once in a while.
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Kin
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Limitless333 wrote:
I want a site like snellman. The mobile apps are cool looking, but less functional and harder to derive stats from etc. I want something geared toward the completive crowd like snellman if such an app is to be developed.
+1

Every player in my group bought the TM app and they hate it.
snellman is functionally superior and that’s where we play online.
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Jon Kern
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candoo wrote:
Limitless333 wrote:
I want a site like snellman. The mobile apps are cool looking, but less functional and harder to derive stats from etc. I want something geared toward the completive crowd like snellman if such an app is to be developed.
+1

Every player in my group bought the TM app and they hate it.
snellman is functionally superior and that’s where we play online.
Totally Agree!
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Helge Ostertag
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verandi wrote:
Horologiom wrote:
Copyright violation from some Chinese guys.thumbsdown
They didn't ask permission to run this site based on our game.thumbsdownthumbsdownthumbsdownthumbsdown
Can you please tell us whether there are plans for an online version of Gaia Project? Or is the plan for there not to be one?

As you can see from the popularity of the snellman website, there's a lot of interest. I think many of us fans would just like to know one way or the other what is going to happen, so we can at least stop wondering.
Juho got our permission and we very much appreciate, what great work he did/does for the TM community!

Any plans of online/App implementations go by contract through the publisher. So I will ask Frank.
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Sorry to hear they did not ask for permission =(

A lot of the fun surrounding Terra Mystica came from the theorycrafting and analysis based on the excellent stats from Juho's site, as well as studying the best players and following them through the tournaments.

Gaia Project is an even better game than Terra Mystica, but unfortunately it does not yet have that level of support or community. I hope that whatever online or app implementations that do eventually become official for GP provide equally robust statistics for the factions and elo-like rankings for players.

Thanks again for the great game!
 
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Pete Graveojoke
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Thank you Helge for responding on this matter and for giving us a game that for me is an actual improvement on an already fantastic one.

I can only echo what has been said here: Juho´s work is exceptional - it is among the best (interface) designs I have ever seen regarding basically anything.

I just got into Gaia - still playing TM on and offline - and I got a lot of friends into it. Wouldn´t I have had the opportunity to get more into the game via snellman neither me nor 3 other people in my group would have bought Project Gaia.
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Lionel M
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I've heard of a great app for Scythe (multi-automa).
Is it planned to do this king of app with Gaia Project ?
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