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Subject: Three plays in and no rampages rss

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Dave Kudzma
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We now have three full plays under our belt, and with our third play I feel like we have done everything 100% right.

That being said, it's nagging at me that we've never rolled a rampage.

So are we just playing really well or are rampages just not a common thing?
 
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David Griffin
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Even if you play to keep the dinos happy, the breaking news or manipulation cards (possibly) can cause rampages that are totally out of control. Then it's just a matter of what your dice roll.

The designer seems to imply that playing that way though is too conservative. That we should be prepared to build dinosaurs we can't pen or skimp on other dino happiness items which result in rampages because even though we might have to repair a structure and/or replace a fence or have a visitor killed (and get a scandal), it still might be worth it from a VP/reputation perspective. I kind of think that a scandal token should perhaps reduce your reputation since it gives you the wrong KIND of reputation. But anyway, even if that works, I'm reluctant to do it since it seems to irresponsible thematically.

On the other hand, if you're sitting there and you can build a triceratops but you have too few fences, maybe it's worth taking a chance in the short term. Of course in this game, even herbivores can roll a skull (so they step on someone?). But if you have the manipulation card that lets you ignore a bad rampage roll, you could maybe take a LOT of chances knowing that you can negate it if it happens?

I guess I'm saying that I think the designer sees rampages and the possible results it can create as a tool you should be using rather than as a hazard that should be avoided at all costs.
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Dave Kudzma
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carbon_dragon wrote:
The designer seems to imply that playing that way though is too conservative.


Manipulation cards or events aside, I certainly wasn't being conservative. I won with almost 200 points.

We did have a Breaking news that was damage fences or a facility, but it was more than easy to have a facility tile to damage.

Ultimately, I would love to hear from those who have played, and if they have had many, if any, rampages. It just seems super easy to avoid; unless we are doing something wrong.
 
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Chris Stockdale
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Same here, no rampages. You can easily plan for dinosaurs.

But... Nobody has tried an unsafe strategy. I think I might be totally wreckless next game and see if I go heavy on manipulation cards and don't worry about taking turns to put them in safely if I can score even higher despite rampages. I think it will be an interesting experiment.

The other option is to put the optional corrupted t-Rex in since it rampages every feed. Maybe I'll just do that since we've played without it so far.

My wife likes that you can make a safe Park. So I'm glad it's possible. I just want to see if the unsafe option works well.
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Dave Kudzma
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chrisoc13 wrote:
I just want to see if the unsafe option works well.


If, like David said, the designer is intimating that the fences and buildings can be treating more like a resource, I too would be curious to see the scores of someone who did so.
 
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Richard Keene
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Rampages are largely avoidable if you concentrate on building a very safe park but you typically wont score as high if you don't take chances. That said, 6 out of 20 events can trigger a rampage very easily, with your odds being worse the more carnivores you build.

Beyond that, player interaction is the most likely thing to trigger a rampage through direct competition of resources and action space blocking. This means rampages are also more common at higher player count games.

Your scores do seem slightly higher than normal though, especially if you are building a safe park. It was rare to see play testers go above 170 points. I would be really curious to see your final parks.
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Dave Kudzma
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lordnine wrote:
Rampages are largely avoidable if you concentrate on building a very safe park but you typically wont score as high if you don't take chances. That said, 6 out of 20 events can trigger a rampage very easily, with your odds being worse the more carnivores you build.

Beyond that, player interaction is the most likely thing to trigger a rampage through direct competition of resources and action space blocking. This means rampages are also more common at higher player count games.

Your scores do seem slightly higher than normal though, especially if you are building a safe park. It was rare to see play testers go above 170 points. I would be really curious to see your final parks.


When we play again, especially if the scores are this high, I will post an image here.

I could easily recreate my park from my last play though.

In the end of my last play I had 6 mutants, 2 trikes, 2 bronto, and hotels that in the next to last round as first player I had 8 visitors. In addition, I had the Carnivore Biome as well as the Mutant Exhibition. I also had four of the basic hotels.

The last round I was at 27? points on my track. I know I made approximately 100 points over the course of the mid game as I was around 15 points and getting around 4 visitors.

We are not really friendly players, but I can certainly see the 3p game as being more friendly.

Our group REALLY likes the game, so I don't want to give the impression of being critical of the game at all.

Edit: updates to include building names
 
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Chris Grenard
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First off, thank you for the really great review and compliments! We appreciate your comments so much!

Also, we would love to see the pictures! One thing of note on your previous post here: Omnivores are not carnivores, for scoring purposes. Mutants occupy a unique niche, and they can be super good, so very few buildings interact with them.

As Richard said, I think our own playtesting has almost never seen scores as high as 200, so I suspect that there's a bit of rule clarification needed. Maybe in future rulebooks, we'll have an graphic like a sticky note on the page that says, "Note: Omnivores are unique and don't count as either herbivores or carnivores."
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Richard Keene
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Criticism is perfectly fine.

I like identifying edge cases because it can make the game stronger if a player thought of a really clever strategy. In this case I think I have identified your scoring anomaly. Mutants are considered omnivores (pg.12), not carnivores, so the carnivore biome would not have given any bonus points based the park you described. So that is a difference of 18 points.
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Dave Kudzma
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goldfenix wrote:
so I suspect that there's a bit of rule clarification needed. Maybe in future rulebooks, we'll have an graphic like a sticky note on the page that says, "Note: Omnivores are unique and don't count as either herbivores or carnivores."


You know, I thought I had seen "omnivore" among the dinosaurs and thought I was crazy.

So take my 190 something and subtract 18, and it does put it right in line with the 170s your testing showed.
 
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Dave Kudzma
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Also, my mutant strategy was helped quite a bit by having the card which can give you 4 goats. I had two of them very early. It's what made me go mutant.
 
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Dan Miller
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chrisoc13 wrote:
Same here, no rampages. You can easily plan for dinosaurs.

But... Nobody has tried an unsafe strategy.


Un-penned pterodactyls work pretty well.
 
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Mike Pye
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A way to increase the rampages might be to have the breaking news cards face down so you don’t know what’s coming... (Also might feel more realistic)
 
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Dave Kudzma
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Owen134866 wrote:
A way to increase the rampages might be to have the breaking news cards face down so you don’t know what’s coming... (Also might feel more realistic)


Oh, I'm not complaining that there are fewer rampages than I might expect...
 
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Chris Stockdale
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Well we found out in our latest game that you can indeed have a lot of rampages. We weren't playing a riskier way necessarily (meaning we were not trying to put dinosaurs in unprepared locations or anything) and yet we ended up having a lot of rampages.

We previously had largely gone for herbivores primarily. We each had 1 or 2 carnivores was all. But in our latest game, we both had a similar strategy at the beginning. I went for a T-Rex straight off the bat (and soon ended up with 2) and she went for raptors. Soon she had several raptors and a Pterodactyl while I had raptors and 2 T-Rexs. Goats... were in short supply. By the very last round my wife had enough goats already, but I needed every goat left to feed my dinosaurs and stop a rampage. She took them. She took the goats she didn't even need! I was able to feed one T-Rex. The other dinosaurs... they feasted. My park probably wasn't all that popular after that... I imagine we closed in disgrace because the collection of scandal tokens we took was huge.

It was awesome. It made me realize how dangerous it can be to get too greedy with dangerous dinosaurs. I love that rampages come when you decide to push it, and I love that my wife stole the goats out from under me (and fed them to her mutants) which kept me from winning due to my high scoring dinos.

So if more than one person is not playing it safe... rampages are gonna happen it seems.
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David Molina
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I thought goats were 'unlimited'?

EDIT: on page 8 it says:

Component Limitations:
Dinosaurs are limited to the number of wooden meeples in the game box. There are six of each type of standard dinosaur and twelve mutants. All other components are considered unlimited.

So no one can really "buy up al the goats". If you run out of meeplese use pennies or wooden blocks or whatever.
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Chris Stockdale
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Oh there were goats in the supply. There were just no spaces to get goats that weren't occupied. I needed way too many goats.
 
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David Griffin
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chrisoc13 wrote:
Oh there were goats in the supply. There were just no spaces to get goats that weren't occupied. I needed way too many goats.


Don't forget outsourcing. I nearly always do.
 
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Chris Stockdale
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carbon_dragon wrote:
chrisoc13 wrote:
Oh there were goats in the supply. There were just no spaces to get goats that weren't occupied. I needed way too many goats.


Don't forget outsourcing. I nearly always do.

Occupied as well by then! I wrongly assumed my wife wouldn't take all the goat spots since she didn't need that many (if any, can't remember 100% the board state) more. I also needed to create one more dinosaur to have a chance to win so I did that first (and a t-rex at that, because why not, might as well go big and live life on the edge) thinking she would ignore the goats her first two moves giving me time to do some other things first.

Point is if enough people create carnivores... Better keep an eye on the goats. Rampages can happen if enough people go the carnivore route even if you're keeping your dinosaurs appropriately penned in.
 
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rob taylor
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Rampages are gambles.
They are shortcuts taken by your corporation to earn money and vps.
Early game it’s quite good to create a T. rex without fences or goats.
It’s giving you 3 reputation and 7 vps.
You can always call on the agency to cover up any scandals .
 
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Ian Ulaidh
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An un-penned T-rex would mean you couldn't build any facilities really and/or hotels would get hammered. How would this give you a better score? wouldnt you lose out on points for visitors
 
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Chris Grenard
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ugbash wrote:
An un-penned T-rex would mean you couldn't build any facilities really and/or hotels would get hammered. How would this give you a better score? wouldnt you lose out on points for visitors


I would never risk a T-Rex rampage. Pterodactyl and Raptor rampages ain't bad though. Pterodactyl, in fact, is great in this role.
 
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Richard Keene
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I disagree about the raptor, which is one of the riskier rampagers, but a Pterodactyl is definitely worth taking a chance on.

The way it works is that it WILL rampage each round but you only have a 2 in 6 chance of losing a visitor from that(unless a hotel is damaged). Now even if you do lose a visitor and get a scandal, you still scored 5 points from the Pterodactyl so you really only had a net loss of one point and you had 4 additional reputation which means you are more likely to pull ahead in player order on the following round.

Also, as long as you have facilities that are not immediately needed you can suffer some damage without a great risk to your score. Facilities like the holo domes and statues are great for this since they are cheap at 1 & 2 credits. In the case of the statues, you also can wait to repair them until the last round of the game since they do nothing until final scoring.
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Gláucio Reis
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carbon_dragon wrote:
But if you have the manipulation card that lets you ignore a bad rampage roll, you could maybe take a LOT of chances knowing that you can negate it if it happens?

It only protects against one roll and is then discarded. Also, watchtowers cancel one "slash" per round but don't cancel "skulls". With a one-third chance of rolling a "skull" and a visitor's death costing potentially 9 points, I think there is very little incentive to go risky.

EDIT: I realized I was misremembering the relevant manipulation card (it can cancel a "skull", not only a "slash"). I edited the text above accordingly, but my point still stands.
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Chris Grenard
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GSReis wrote:
carbon_dragon wrote:
But if you have the manipulation card that lets you ignore a bad rampage roll, you could maybe take a LOT of chances knowing that you can negate it if it happens?

It only protects against one "slash" roll and is then discarded. If you roll a "skull", you are still screwed. Watchtowers don't cancel it, either. With a one-third chance of rolling a "skull" and a visitor's death costing potentially 9 points, I think there is very little incentive to go risky.


In the last turn perhaps. But Scandals are generally easy to dump for most of the game, and they are what give you the wonderful Manipulation cards while dumping them.
 
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