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Subject: whoops.... "Vindication" does not mean what this game thinks it means... rss

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SSquire1 wrote:
The oxforddictionaries.com definition of vindication reads thusly:

1. The action of clearing someone of blame or suspicion.
‘I intend to work to ensure my full vindication’
‘today's news is a complete vindication for us’

1.1 Proof that someone or something is right, reasonable, or justified.
‘the results were interpreted as vindication of the company's policy’
‘democratic vindications of freedom of choice as a basic principle’



Therefore, if we are going to consider how the word is used in current language, is it possible that perhaps "vindication" may not be so terribly off the mark?

? But the way the word is used currently -- as your quoted definition demonstrates -- is the same as the definition in the OED.

The "blame" on the persona in this game is never "cleared". They didn't accuse the wrong guy. They didn't blame him for things he didn't do. No "proof" emerges that demonstrates people were wrong to blame him. They were right to condemn him, and they remain right to have done so despite his future success or good deeds.

"Vindication" only works if the people were wrong to accuse him of his misdeeds. They weren't.

There's a perfectly good word for what the designers are talking about -- redemption. In no usage or context does vindication mean redemption. It refers to an entirely different thing.

Now if you had a game based on The Fugitive, where society ultimately finds out that the accused man was never guilty, that would be a great game of "Vindication"!



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Wretched Git wrote:
SSquire1 wrote:
The oxforddictionaries.com definition of vindication reads thusly:

1. The action of clearing someone of blame or suspicion.
‘I intend to work to ensure my full vindication’
‘today's news is a complete vindication for us’

1.1 Proof that someone or something is right, reasonable, or justified.
‘the results were interpreted as vindication of the company's policy’
‘democratic vindications of freedom of choice as a basic principle’



Therefore, if we are going to consider how the word is used in current language, is it possible that perhaps "vindication" may not be so terribly off the mark?

? But the way the word is used currently -- as your quoted definition demonstrates -- is the same as the definition in the OED.

The "blame" on the persona in this game is never "cleared". They didn't accuse the wrong guy. They didn't blame him for things he didn't do. No "proof" emerges that demonstrates people were wrong to blame him. They were right to condemn him, and they remain right to have done so despite his future success or good deeds.

"Vindication" only works if the people were wrong to accuse him of his misdeeds. They weren't.

There's a perfectly good word for what the designers are talking about -- redemption. In no usage or context does vindication mean redemption. It refers to an entirely different thing.

Now if you had a game based on The Fugitive, where society ultimately finds out that the accused man was never guilty, that would be a great game of "Vindication"!

Unless the vindication comes from always knowing you were a good person who did bad things. And now that you've managed to hit rock bottom, you've vindicated that view, by turning the view you have of yourself into reality through good deeds.

Like Anakin Skywalker at the end of Return of the Jedi, before Lucas went all, "I don't understand my own narrative," and turned him from Sebastian Shaw into Captain I-Can't-Act.
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Race Bannon wrote:
CrackTheSky wrote:
Perhaps Orange Nebula should re-name the game to: "Inconceivable"


You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Idaho11 wrote:
Unless the vindication comes from always knowing you were a good person who did bad things.
Heh... only religion and ideology can provide this kind of sophistry. "I do bad things -- my effect on the world is entirely negative -- but I'm a 'good person' because I have certain thoughts."

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Idaho11 wrote:
Wretched Git wrote:
SSquire1 wrote:
The oxforddictionaries.com definition of vindication reads thusly:

1. The action of clearing someone of blame or suspicion.
‘I intend to work to ensure my full vindication’
‘today's news is a complete vindication for us’

1.1 Proof that someone or something is right, reasonable, or justified.
‘the results were interpreted as vindication of the company's policy’
‘democratic vindications of freedom of choice as a basic principle’



Therefore, if we are going to consider how the word is used in current language, is it possible that perhaps "vindication" may not be so terribly off the mark?

? But the way the word is used currently -- as your quoted definition demonstrates -- is the same as the definition in the OED.

The "blame" on the persona in this game is never "cleared". They didn't accuse the wrong guy. They didn't blame him for things he didn't do. No "proof" emerges that demonstrates people were wrong to blame him. They were right to condemn him, and they remain right to have done so despite his future success or good deeds.

"Vindication" only works if the people were wrong to accuse him of his misdeeds. They weren't.

There's a perfectly good word for what the designers are talking about -- redemption. In no usage or context does vindication mean redemption. It refers to an entirely different thing.

Now if you had a game based on The Fugitive, where society ultimately finds out that the accused man was never guilty, that would be a great game of "Vindication"!

Unless the vindication comes from always knowing you were a good person who did bad things. And now that you've managed to hit rock bottom, you've vindicated that view, by turning the view you have of yourself into reality through good deeds.

Like Anakin Skywalker at the end of Return of the Jedi, before Lucas went all, "I don't understand my own narrative," and turned him from Sebastian Shaw into Captain I-Can't-Act.

You mean like how Anakin finally realized he was wrong all along and redeemed himself? whistle
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Wretched Git wrote:
Idaho11 wrote:
Unless the vindication comes from always knowing you were a good person who did bad things.
Heh... only religion and ideology can provide this kind of sophistry. "I do bad things -- my effect on the world is entirely negative -- but I'm a 'good person' because I have certain thoughts."


It tends to happen in comic books a lot, as writers try to make villains complex (some would say "confused")

Curiously, there's a picture of Cap in this thread. I seem to recall that the somewhat recent Hydra Cap story line included some elements of the "sophistry" you mention.

On a related topic: have the creators of the game weighed in on why they named the game, Vindication instead of redemption or something else?
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Answering my own question:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/orangenebula/epoch-the-...

 
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SSquire1 wrote:
Unfortunately they don't address the question you raised... why "vindication" instead of the right word, "redemption." I think they just didn't think about it.
 
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I wonder if the answer lies in what Big Tom wrote in the "Why 15 Honors thread"

"Thematically the idea is that you're pretty much scum of the earth but humans are textured. No one is 100% altruistic, 100% evil; no one is 100% anything. The scoring track comes out to roughly 100. If for the sake of argument this was all a percentage and you start at 15% honorable - I'd say that's pretty dang crappy."

Perhaps, if there is vindication in this game, it's vindication for the notion that there is good in everyone, even "scum".

(Here comes the dead horse gif!)




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But you do realize it's just a story invented "on the go", to justify the mechanical start (so that you have something to lose, if you want to)? I mean, judging from this thread, there's dozens of ways to justify various things that happen in any game. We do have great imagination, even scumbags :)
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Hmm, using a cool sounding word to signify a situation, but it is not quite correct.....isn’t it ironic.
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SSquire1 wrote:
Perhaps, if there is vindication in this game, it's vindication for the notion that there is good in everyone, even "scum".

Hm, but even that notion's wrong. It's meaningless to talk about the "good" in someone while they're committing bad acts. By that measure we'd have to say Hitler was really good during the Holocaust because we discovered in a memoir that he planned to do good works after the war...

You do a good act here and a bad act there, but there's nothing "in" you but juicy organs...

"But what about the soul?"

Well, this is why that concept was invented. It lets people think they can be good without doing anything. "I'm good because I have the right political views! I believe in the right supernatural entities! My faith!"

Another mass shooting?! I've got a solution: thoughts and prayers.



 
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Hey everyone.

Out intention with this game was to give you a stage to tell your own story on. We've done a little bit of world building to serve as a jumping off point but in the end the narrative is meant to come from the players. Attempting to find and interpret our narrative intentions will absolutely be an exercise in frustration as the game itself provides essentially no narrative.

You are thrown from a ship for being a "scumbag", washed ashore on an island, where you discover the experience has resulted in something new being awakened within you.

Other than that, the rest of the narrative details are your to pursue and craft as best fits your interests and interpretations. We definitely appreciate that the highly genre-ified art and overall presentation can create the expectation that this experience will be dictating a narrative, in hindsight we could have done a better job explaining our intention on that front.

Hope this makes sense!
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CasualToast wrote:
Hey everyone.

Out intention with this game was to give you a stage to tell your own story on. We've done a little bit of world building to serve as a jumping off point but in the end the narrative is meant to come from the players. Attempting to find and interpret our narrative intentions will absolutely be an exercise in frustration as the game itself provides essentially no narrative.

You are thrown from a ship for being a "scumbag", washed ashore on an island, where you discover the experience has resulted in something new being awakened within you.

Other than that, the rest of the narrative details are your to pursue and craft as best fits your interests and interpretations. We definitely appreciate that the highly genre-ified art and overall presentation can create the expectation that this experience will be dictating a narrative, in hindsight we could have done a better job explaining our intention on that front.

Hope this makes sense!

Although it's a bit off-topic, it's great to hear from the designers! And thanks much for what looks like a fantastic game. It's clear that much sweat and love went into it.



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Wretched Git wrote:
Although it's a bit off-topic, it's great to hear from the designers! And thanks much for what looks like a fantastic game. It's clear that much sweat and love went into it.

We're so glad that people are connecting with and are excited about it, particularly if those people have the type of tastes that enjoy Dr Katz as much as I do. ;-)
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CasualToast wrote:
Wretched Git wrote:
Although it's a bit off-topic, it's great to hear from the designers! And thanks much for what looks like a fantastic game. It's clear that much sweat and love went into it.

We're so glad that people are connecting with and are excited about it, particularly if those people have the type of tastes that enjoy Dr Katz as much as I do. ;-)
Indeed Ben Katz is the greatest of the h jon benjamins.

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Wretched Git wrote:
CasualToast wrote:
Wretched Git wrote:
Although it's a bit off-topic, it's great to hear from the designers! And thanks much for what looks like a fantastic game. It's clear that much sweat and love went into it.

We're so glad that people are connecting with and are excited about it, particularly if those people have the type of tastes that enjoy Dr Katz as much as I do. ;-)
Indeed Ben Katz is the greatest of the h jon benjamins.


The true OG HJB
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CasualToast wrote:
Hey everyone.

Out intention with this game was to give you a stage to tell your own story on. We've done a little bit of world building to serve as a jumping off point but in the end the narrative is meant to come from the players. Attempting to find and interpret our narrative intentions will absolutely be an exercise in frustration as the game itself provides essentially no narrative.

You are thrown from a ship for being a "scumbag", washed ashore on an island, where you discover the experience has resulted in something new being awakened within you.

Other than that, the rest of the narrative details are your to pursue and craft as best fits your interests and interpretations. We definitely appreciate that the highly genre-ified art and overall presentation can create the expectation that this experience will be dictating a narrative, in hindsight we could have done a better job explaining our intention on that front.

Hope this makes sense!

Thanks for dropping by! The narrative scenario certainly makes tons of sense. It's just the choice of "vindication" to describe that doesn't seem optimal because there's no false accusation anywhere.

Your first choice, Awakening, make so much more sense!
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CasualToast wrote:
Hey everyone.

Out intention with this game was to give you a stage to tell your own story on. We've done a little bit of world building to serve as a jumping off point but in the end the narrative is meant to come from the players. Attempting to find and interpret our narrative intentions will absolutely be an exercise in frustration as the game itself provides essentially no narrative.

You are thrown from a ship for being a "scumbag", washed ashore on an island, where you discover the experience has resulted in something new being awakened within you.

Other than that, the rest of the narrative details are your to pursue and craft as best fits your interests and interpretations. We definitely appreciate that the highly genre-ified art and overall presentation can create the expectation that this experience will be dictating a narrative, in hindsight we could have done a better job explaining our intention on that front.

Hope this makes sense!

I'm a backer and that sounds like what I was hoping for. The best stories are the ones we imagine, that seem just around the corner but not explicitly stated. The sense of mystery and awe is so much more sublime when it's like that.

It's like a comic book that belonged to your friend's older brother, and you look down and see it in the corner when you're on a visit. It looks captivating, because you don't know what it's about. And you think "Who's that guy, why does he have a bow and arrow?" And you can't read it because you're there to visit your friend.

The story you imagine is much more powerful sometimes. Maybe this game will capture that feeling.

(P.S. Still sounds more like "Redemption.")
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Race Bannon wrote:
CasualToast wrote:
Hey everyone.

Out intention with this game was to give you a stage to tell your own story on. We've done a little bit of world building to serve as a jumping off point but in the end the narrative is meant to come from the players. Attempting to find and interpret our narrative intentions will absolutely be an exercise in frustration as the game itself provides essentially no narrative.

You are thrown from a ship for being a "scumbag", washed ashore on an island, where you discover the experience has resulted in something new being awakened within you.

Other than that, the rest of the narrative details are your to pursue and craft as best fits your interests and interpretations. We definitely appreciate that the highly genre-ified art and overall presentation can create the expectation that this experience will be dictating a narrative, in hindsight we could have done a better job explaining our intention on that front.

Hope this makes sense!

I'm a backer and that sounds like what I was hoping for. The best stories are the ones we imagine, that seem just around the corner but not explicitly stated. The sense of mystery and awe is so much more sublime when it's like that.

It's like a comic book that belonged to your friend's older brother, and you look down and see it in the corner when you're on a visit. It looks captivating, because you don't know what it's about. And you think "Who's that guy, why does he have a bow and arrow?" And you can't read it because you're there to visit your friend.

The story you imagine is much more powerful sometimes. Maybe this game will capture that feeling.

(P.S. Still sounds more like "Redemption.")
In my head (and among my family/fellow players) this will always be thought of as "Redemption" at least until we rename it "the hex game" or something as we have generally done with all my other games
 
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DragonsDream wrote:

In my head (and among my family/fellow players) this will always be thought of as "Redemption" at least until we rename it "the hex game" or something as we have generally done with all my other games
and I think we may already have a winner:

I was trying to get my wife on board with my latest KS expense and while watching Rahdo's Runthrough she dubbed this "Video Game: the Board Game"
 
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I'm going to add my +1 to the "'vindication' doesn't mean what they think it means" side. (Redemption or Salvation would have fit better, but they may have been trying to avoid religious connotations, since there are so many devout atheists these days that are triggered by competing religions. Or maybe they just like the sound better?)

But the game *looks* good, so they got my money despite that.
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Becq wrote:
... they may have been trying to avoid religious connotations, since there are so many devout atheists these days that are triggered by competing religions.
Almost certainly. I mean, who can forget the uproar when Redemption and Salvation Road were published? I'm not sure one can even estimate the sheer number of atheists crying and screaming about those. Wasn't it about 800?

or 250?

40?

7?

.3?

 
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Wretched Git wrote:
Becq wrote:
... they may have been trying to avoid religious connotations, since there are so many devout atheists these days that are triggered by competing religions.
Almost certainly. I mean, who can forget the uproar when Redemption and Salvation Road were published? I'm not sure one can even estimate the sheer number of atheists crying and screaming about those. Wasn't it about 800?

or 250?

40?

7?

.3?

So you are making fun of his suggestion in regards to general hypersensitivity, need for political correctness in today's internet culture by taking a game from 1995 and how it was received over two decades ago? Ooookaay..
(And one barely heard of game)

If you wanna refute his point, then might wanna do better.
Especially that in quite a few recent, high profile games heated discussions and complaints sparked just because of a certain word, symbol or art was used. So he does have a point.
 
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Spike225BGG wrote:
Wretched Git wrote:
Becq wrote:
... they may have been trying to avoid religious connotations, since there are so many devout atheists these days that are triggered by competing religions.
Almost certainly. I mean, who can forget the uproar when Redemption and Salvation Road were published? I'm not sure one can even estimate the sheer number of atheists crying and screaming about those. Wasn't it about 800?

or 250?

40?

7?

.3?

So you are making fun of his suggestion in regards to general hypersensitivity, need for political correctness in today's internet culture...
Hm... Funny how you had to change the subject there, isn't it? The only person talking about "general hypersensitivity" and "political correctness" is -- yourself.

What I was responding to, as you know, was the assertion that a game entitled "Redemption" would enrage atheists.

To this question you say it is irrelevant that an actual game titled "Redemption" was, in fact, published without a single murmur from a single atheist. Those of us who have to listen to complaints about atheists are pretty used to this sort of amusing response to simple, unavoidable facts.


Quote:
... in quite a few recent, high profile games heated discussions and complaints sparked just because of a certain word, symbol or art was used. So he does have a point.
Yes it is an astonishing point he's making -- and you're going to help him to make it:

Please walk us through just one of the "quite a few" incidents in which atheists complained about the religious content of a "high profile game."



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