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Subject: Discussion Thread for the UK Maths Trade April 2019 rss

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MC Crispy
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AshtroBoy wrote:
Just a heads up to all the people I’m trading with, I’ve run out of boxes to pack them safely as somehow I had 10 trades lols, I’m currently trying to source more boxes and will post ASAP

Cheers and apologies for any delays

Ash
Been there, done that! That's what's called "an embarrassment of riches"
 
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Dan Condon-Jones
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Three of my 11 games have arrived already

One of the 11 hasn't even responded to me yet cry

One of the 11 people I need to send money to hasn't replied yet either whistle
 
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I just received a game with a bashed corner because it was sent wrapped only in brown paper, no packing box or even bubble wrap.

If we do end up re-writing the rules of the trade, can we include something about appropriate packaging?
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David M
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cassetteboy wrote:
I just received a game with a bashed corner because it was sent wrapped only in brown paper, no packing box or even bubble wrap.

If we do end up re-writing the rules of the trade, can we include something about appropriate packaging?


Agreed, I would be upset if this happened to me.
 
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davymast wrote:
Agreed, I would be upset if this happened to me.


Annoyingly, it was one of those games where, when the results come in, you think 'Why on earth did I say I wanted that?'. I'd been planning to move it on pretty much immediately, and now that's going to be more difficult.
 
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Jon Bradford
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cassetteboy wrote:
I just received a game with a bashed corner because it was sent wrapped only in brown paper, no packing box or even bubble wrap.

If we do end up re-writing the rules of the trade, can we include something about appropriate packaging?


That already is a rule

Quote:
Items should be packed for shipping so that they will arrive in the condition they are advertised.
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askgar wrote:


That already is a rule

Quote:
Items should be packed for shipping so that they will arrive in the condition they are advertised.


Ah, I hadn't realised that. Still, it might be worth making that rule a bit more specific, maybe mentioning that games should be packed in a box? To my mind brown paper is never acceptable, even if there's a layer of bubble-wrap too.
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David M
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cassetteboy wrote:
askgar wrote:


That already is a rule

Quote:
Items should be packed for shipping so that they will arrive in the condition they are advertised.


Ah, I hadn't realised that. Still, it might be worth making that rule a bit more specific, maybe mentioning that games should be packed in a box? To my mind brown paper is never acceptable, even if there's a layer of bubble-wrap too.


It depends on the game. For large games, packaging in a box makes sense.

For smaller games, I'll often wrap them in a casing of thick cardboard, then put them in jiffy bag. The point is that if it gets bashed about in transit(short of being run over by a lorry), the game box & contents will be ok.
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MC Crispy
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cassetteboy wrote:
I just received a game with a bashed corner because it was sent wrapped only in brown paper, no packing box or even bubble wrap.

If we do end up re-writing the rules of the trade, can we include something about appropriate packaging?

cassetteboy wrote:
...it might be worth making that rule a bit more specific, maybe mentioning that games should be packed in a box? To my mind brown paper is never acceptable, even if there's a layer of bubble-wrap too.
Yes. But it'll have to be in the form of something like "you are responsible for ensuring that the recipient receives the game in the advertised condition or is compensated by the value of a replacement". We can't tell people how to package games, but we can tell them what we expect the packaging to achieve and what we expect if it fails to achieve that expectation. Similarly, we can't force people to insure their parcel, be we can tell them that we expect compensation from them if their shipping fails. I'm all for setting expectations and describing consequences for failing to meet expectation rather than being prescriptive about methods (though I intend to provide acceptable examples)
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This is getting ridiculous... A second game arrived, from a different person, also wrapped in brown paper, although this did have a layer of bubblewrap too.

It was listed as having box damage already, so I can't tell if it picked up any extra knocks along the way, though I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

What do people think, should I leave negative feedback for trades where the games are sent like this?
 
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MC Crispy
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cassetteboy wrote:
This is getting ridiculous... A second game arrived, from a different person, also wrapped in brown paper, although this did have a layer of bubblewrap too.

It was listed as having box damage already, so I can't tell if it picked up any extra knocks along the way, though I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

What do people think, should I leave negative feedback for trades where the games are sent like this?
I'm not averse to strong brown paper and double layers of decent bubble-wrap but if I feel that the sender has taken a risk with the game I will contact them before giving feedback. If they hear what I'm saying (usually a reference to the rules of the trade and my commentary on their method) then I leave a nice review. If they annoy me then I'll comment on the packaging in the review notes. The problem with negative (or even neutral) reviews is that they tend to generate tit-for-tat responses. So somebody is a dick, you give a negative review and end up with a negative review yourself - it's not really a useful system IMO.
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I see what you're saying but I feel like the first one (just brown paper, no bubblewrap) definitely deserves bad feedback. There's no way that was going to arrive undamaged. Don't I owe it to the community to warn them that future trades may be sent that way?

The second one, where bubblewrap was used and the box was already damaged I think I'll give the benefit of the doubt.
 
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MC Crispy
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cassetteboy wrote:
I see what you're saying but I feel like the first one (just brown paper, no bubblewrap) definitely deserves bad feedback. There's no way that was going to arrive undamaged. Don't I owe it to the community to warn them that future trades may be sent that way?

The second one, where bubblewrap was used and the box was already damaged I think I'll give the benefit of the doubt.
If the first parcel arrived and the contents were damaged then you contact the sender and take if from there. If the contents were undamaged, then you both got lucky! If I provided feedback via PM and felt that it was unlikely to happen again then I'd probably let it rest - having done my duty to the community by changing a behaviour. If I felt that I was being fobbed off then I'd leave a positive review but mention the packaging in the comments. A second instance from the same trader in a subsequent trade would be an automatic negative review. Fortunately most people seem receptive to feedback and that has never happened. But you must make your own judgement call.

The interesting thing is that if the package was insured and the packaging inadequate, I doubt the shipping company would reimburse. That's why I (1) take a great deal of care over packing my games (including internal packaging of the game box if it rattles a lot) and (2) always insure for the replacement value of the contents
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Gordon Watson
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I think there should be something stated that in most cases 'appropriate packaging' means packed inside another box to prevent damage to the game box and that in simply wrapping in brown paper, even with a layer of bubble-wrap, is not sufficient to reasonably ensure the game will arrive in the condition it is sent.
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MC Crispy
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domus_ludorum wrote:
I think there should be something stated that in most cases 'appropriate packaging' means packed inside another box to prevent damage to the game box and that in simply wrapping in brown paper, even with a layer of bubble-wrap, is not sufficient to reasonably ensure the game will arrive in the condition it is sent.
Nope, that's unworkable. I've had super-thin cardboard boxes that only just fit the game box and - as a consequence - the contents have been damaged. So then one has to start specifying grades of cardboard and the presence or absence of internal packaging to protect the game box if the outer carton gets crushed/stabbed. At that point we have the beginnings of a descent into prescriptive governance and I for one will not go there.

A better approach would be to provide examples, but there would be no universal acceptance that any given example constituted "reasonable". We could use references to the guidance provided by Royal Mail, presumably if one complied with those then RM would compensate if they used your parcel as a stepping stone into the van or felt the need for a game of frisbee (I've had boot prints and even what looked like wheel marks from a trolley).

All of which is why I prefer setting expectations and reminding people of their commitment to ensure that everyone is happy with the outcome of a trade.
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Gordon Watson
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mccrispy wrote:
domus_ludorum wrote:
I think there should be something stated that in most cases 'appropriate packaging' means packed inside another box to prevent damage to the game box and that in simply wrapping in brown paper, even with a layer of bubble-wrap, is not sufficient to reasonably ensure the game will arrive in the condition it is sent.
Nope, that's unworkable. I've had super-thin cardboard boxes that only just fit the game box and - as a consequence - the contents have been damaged. So then one has to start specifying grades of cardboard and the presence or absence of internal packaging to protect the game box if the outer carton gets crushed/stabbed. At that point we have the beginnings of a descent into prescriptive governance and I for one will not go there.

A better approach would be to provide examples, but there would be no universal acceptance that any given example constituted "reasonable". We could use references to the guidance provided by Royal Mail, presumably if one complied with those then RM would compensate if they used your parcel as a stepping stone into the van or felt the need for a game of frisbee (I've had boot prints and even what looked like wheel marks from a trolley).

All of which is why I prefer setting expectations and reminding people of their commitment to ensure that everyone is happy with the outcome of a trade.

Nope to your 'nope' - I don't care what the exact directions are that are given but wrapping in just brown paper, even with bubble-wrap, is so rarely a good idea that it is worth specifically mentioning.
 
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MC Crispy
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domus_ludorum wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
domus_ludorum wrote:
I think there should be something stated that in most cases 'appropriate packaging' means packed inside another box to prevent damage to the game box and that in simply wrapping in brown paper, even with a layer of bubble-wrap, is not sufficient to reasonably ensure the game will arrive in the condition it is sent.
Nope, that's unworkable. I've had super-thin cardboard boxes that only just fit the game box and - as a consequence - the contents have been damaged. So then one has to start specifying grades of cardboard and the presence or absence of internal packaging to protect the game box if the outer carton gets crushed/stabbed. At that point we have the beginnings of a descent into prescriptive governance and I for one will not go there.

A better approach would be to provide examples, but there would be no universal acceptance that any given example constituted "reasonable". We could use references to the guidance provided by Royal Mail, presumably if one complied with those then RM would compensate if they used your parcel as a stepping stone into the van or felt the need for a game of frisbee (I've had boot prints and even what looked like wheel marks from a trolley).

All of which is why I prefer setting expectations and reminding people of their commitment to ensure that everyone is happy with the outcome of a trade.

Nope to your 'nope' - I don't care what the exact directions are that are given but wrapping in just brown paper, even with bubble-wrap, is so rarely a good idea that it is worth specifically mentioning.
I continue to disagree. I've had parcels that are brown paper with about 2" of bubble-wrap (that "large bubble" variety where the bubbles are about 1" diameter). I regarded that as perfectly adequate packaging. Being prescriptive is simply unworkable (people don't comply with even the simplest rules on this MT, there's zero chance of 100% compliance with prescriptive rules on packaging)
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Parker McParker
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I don't know if there's a more up to date post than this (not much has changed in the packaging games world in the last ten years) but it's a good post and it could easily be linked in the header of the UK trades.

Guide to packing games for Maths Trades

I think the existing wording will work for 80% of traders and the others need to read the first post in the above link.

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mccrispy wrote:
I continue to disagree. I've had parcels that are brown paper with about 2" of bubble-wrap (that "large bubble" variety where the bubbles are about 1" diameter). I regarded that as perfectly adequate packaging. Being prescriptive is simply unworkable (people don't comply with even the simplest rules on this MT, there's zero chance of 100% compliance with prescriptive rules on packaging)


I think you're right that it's a bad idea to tell people exactly what they should be doing, and that with sufficient bubblewrap a box may not be necessary (although that's a lot of bubblewrap).

But surely we can agree (and include in the rules) that it's not acceptable to just wrap the game in paper like a birthday present and chuck it in the post? 99 times out of 100 that's going to result in damage and I still can't quite believe that someone did it.
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Andrew Fergus
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We've had this discussion a thousand times before. Bubble wrap without a containing outer box is simply not good enough.
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MC Crispy
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ferengi wrote:
We've had this discussion a thousand times before. Bubble wrap without a containing outer box is simply not good enough.
Yes, I'm sure that we're going around the loop for the umpteenth time. That doesn't make your assertion correct. I strongly believe that setting mandatory outcomes is more important than being prescriptive. I also believe that guidance on achieving the mandatory outcome is helpful. But that's as far as I'm prepared to go in any draft ruleset that I create (especially when Sharon has said that she won't necessarily adopt the ruleset)
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Fillipe Diniz
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We should start asking for delivery info on the listing entry too, like “free shipping to the UK, in a brown paper”
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Jay Robinson Robinson
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This has been my first Maths Trade, all complete both sides now - initially I had 'traders remorse' when first saw the results due to the price I paid for mine versus what I was receiving (Godfather > Ghost Stories) but had to remind myself the whole reason for doing it was because I didn't like / wasn't playing what I was putting up for trade.

Received GS midweek, played it last night with the family and it went down a treat - very pleased. Anyhow.. just wanted to say to Sharon for taking the time to set this up... !

until next month y'all..
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Tom Pooley
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dancj wrote:
Three of my 11 games have arrived already

One of the 11 hasn't even responded to me yet cry

One of the 11 people I need to send money to hasn't replied yet either whistle


I’m still waiting for a trade proposal to come through, while my other game was delivered days ago.

Would it be poor etiquette for me to now reach out to the trader I haven’t heard from yet?
 
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Sharon Khan
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DonJengibre wrote:
dancj wrote:
Three of my 11 games have arrived already

One of the 11 hasn't even responded to me yet cry

One of the 11 people I need to send money to hasn't replied yet either whistle


I’m still waiting for a trade proposal to come through, while my other game was delivered days ago.

Would it be poor etiquette for me to now reach out to the trader I haven’t heard from yet?


No, not at all, especially not at this point. There is no "Rule" that says it has to be set up by the sender, it's a convention that has appeared over the last few years. New users in particular are often quite grateful if you set up the trade proposal for them.

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