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Subject: Discussion Thread for the UK Maths Trade April 2019 rss

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Rob Dales wrote:
my packaging in future will leave nothing to chance.
The thing is, no packing will withstand all "chance". Even if you'd had a sturdy outer carton, if some clown had stood on the package it would still have been squished.

The best we can do is minimize risk and then make good if all goes wrong. You did the latter* - all credit to you.

*I have shipped packages to Eastern and Northern Europe in the winter, well rapped in bubble wrap (both the small-bubble and big bubble sort) over-wrapped with industrial clingfilm** (pallet-wrap) and well taped. It can be pretty bomb-proof if it's all tightly wrapped and taped.

**(brown) paper is a problem because a) it can easily be torn and once torn the package beings to lose any integrity it once had (rendering it more easily damaged or - almost worse - meaning the address gets detached for the parcel) and b) if it gets wet it's actually worse than useless.
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WolfMouth wrote:
Also, what’s the procedure for compensating the receiver?
In the case of a lost item, the receiver needs to be "made whole"; there are three basic options:

1) Replace the game s/he should have received with one of equal or better condition
2) Replace the game/money/items s/he traded-away in exchange for the one s/he should have received from you (and compensate the postage s/he paid)
3) Agree any other arrangement (money, different game, money & game).

They also work pretty well in the case of damage. Over the years I've done them all (one of each, I think).
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WolfMouth wrote:
Not sure how I go about claiming when the claim form asks for a PayPal receipt or proof of transaction. Anyone had to do this with a math trade before?
Take screen-prints (don't send them a link only) of:

1) same item sold or for sale on BGG marketplace
2) Items sold or for sale on Amazon
3) item sold or for sale on an OLGS

Don't worry of there are no similar items for sale in £ - find a € (or $) equivalent and add postage to you to get a 'value'. Attach a screen-dump as a jpg to any email or use the carrier's 'upload' facility.


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Alex Gibson
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enoon wrote:
WolfMouth wrote:
Not sure how I go about claiming when the claim form asks for a PayPal receipt or proof of transaction. Anyone had to do this with a math trade before?
Take screen-prints (don't send them a link only) of:

1) same item sold or for sale on BGG marketplace
2) Items sold or for sale on Amazon
3) item sold or for sale on an OLGS

Don't worry of there are no similar items for sale in £ - find a € (or $) equivalent and add postage to you to get a 'value'. Attach a screen-dump as a jpg to any email or use the carrier's 'upload' facility.




Thanks!
 
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I had two trades in this maths trade. I sent both my games shortly after the trade ended, and have received one of the games I traded for very quickly.

I am yet to receive the second game. The person who is supposed to sent it to me did not contact me immediately after the maths trade ended. I thought the etiquette was the those sending something initiated the trade, so I waited for them to contact me. When they did not do so after a week, I send them a trade request, but today I received a message telling me the trade expired.

According to their profile, the person has logged in on BGG several times after the maths trade ended.

What am I supposed to do in a situation like this?
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Both people trading with you have good trade ratings, so I don't think there's any cause to suspect foul play. Probably just real life getting in the way.

I would suggest sending them a geek mail with a gentle reminder, and possibly contacting the other people receiving games from this person, to see if they have heard anything. But hopefully a bit of patience will resolve the issue.

Oh, and the fact that they have logged in might not mean anything. They may have bgg set as one of their home tabs, so they will be logged in every time they open their browser to do something more pressing.
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tihomir108 wrote:
I had two trades in this maths trade. I sent both my games shortly after the trade ended, and have received one of the games I traded for very quickly.

I am yet to receive the second game. The person who is supposed to sent it to me did not contact me immediately after the maths trade ended. I thought the etiquette was the those sending something initiated the trade, so I waited for them to contact me. When they did not do so after a week, I send them a trade request, but today I received a message telling me the trade expired.

According to their profile, the person has logged in on BGG several times after the maths trade ended.

What am I supposed to do in a situation like this?


I had exactly the same issue as you (albeit not with the same user, I think). I don’t mind delays if I get a quick message explaining why, be it before or at the point of trade, but I didn’t get any kind of explanation. I suppose it gets a bit murky when it comes to etiquette. Perhaps you could comment in the feedback you give?
 
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DonJengibre wrote:
I had exactly the same issue as you (albeit not with the same user, I think). I don’t mind delays if I get a quick message explaining why, be it before or at the point of trade, but I didn’t get any kind of explanation. I suppose it gets a bit murky when it comes to etiquette. Perhaps you could comment in the feedback you give?
One needs to be careful about one's expectations: there is nothing specified in the rules about what must be done by when and by whom. There really should be guidelines of course, but until there are* one simply has to wait in the sure expectation that all will be well. Do not leave feedback comments about your expectations not being met when there was no like commitment expected from or by the other party.

All will be well: it is vanishingly rare that it is not.

* maybe there will never be** - there seems to be some strange idea that one shouldn't have too many rules for fear no-one will read them; the point of rules is for them to exist so that they can be referred to when needed - much like the Ts&Cs or the small print in contracts that we never read.

** unless there are unwritten rules - in which case they'e not really rules at all.

.
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Trevor Taylor
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cassetteboy wrote:

Oh, and the fact that they have logged in might not mean anything. They may have bgg set as one of their home tabs, so they will be logged in every time they open their browser to do something more pressing.


Also, if you use the BGG (unofficial, there's no official one) app on Android at least, it 'logs you in' every time you run it. So BGG says you've been there, but you can't see messages and therefore can't see trade requests.
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Ahsan Rasul
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negatrev wrote:
WolfMouth wrote:
Looks like MyHermes has lost the parcel I sent out I’m told it might still show up but there’s no guarantee, which is helpful.

Not sure how I go about claiming when the claim form asks for a PayPal receipt or proof of transaction. Anyone had to do this with a math trade before?

Also, what’s the procedure for compensating the receiver?


It kind of depends. If the item is irreplaceable (very rare) you would compensate them the cash you get back from MyHermes (plus they should be refunding your shipping charge which should go to the recipient as well). But mostly you would just replace of give funds after a possible discussion with the recipient.

The Paypal/transaction thing is only there because it greatly speeds up them refunding as they'll refund that exact value. I had to claim on a damaged trade a while ago and after sharing some amazon links for current value on the item, they eventually did refund me the full insurance amount plus the original shipping charge. So my recipient got a damaged but playable game AND cash to buy something else.

If MyHermes really mess you about and you're not in a super rush for the resolution, I suggest using https://www.resolver.co.uk/ . My only experience with them was very good and it took all the effort and stress off me. It could have been a fluke, but I'll use them again the next time I have an unresolved issue.


having the same issue with parcel2go, as they want a receipt and are quoting their terms and conditions to me, i've sent a picture of an amazon page selling the game for more than the compensation value but its ridiculous that they expect receipts or things like that.

To make matters worse, they returned it to me instead of delivering it as apparently that's what they do if its damaged in transit

Ive also told them that i will nolonger use their service as they have been a pain to deal with via webchat

 
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Mas Khan
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How long does one reasonably wait to follow up about the status of the item after the trade proposal has been accepted?

I haven't had any response about shipping or delays since accepting the trade proposal nearly 2 weeks ago - have I waited long enough?
 
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MasMurda wrote:
How long does one reasonably wait to follow up about the status of the item after the trade proposal has been accepted?

I haven't had any response about shipping or delays since accepting the trade proposal nearly 2 weeks ago - have I waited long enough?


Yes, feel free to ask what is going on after two weeks. It may just be that life has got in the way, but asking for an update is quite reasonable at this point.
 
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Coincidentally, just as I read that and was thinking I would also send an email, the doorbell rang and who would it be but a slightly soggy Hermes delivery person with a parcel.

Just to add to the definitions of game conditions, apparently

"box has seen a lot of love" means "box has seen a lot of love from a rather clumsy hippopotamus who has viewed it as a comfortable seating option on several occasions"!

Item for Geeklist "Uk Maths Trade April 2019"
 
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With the description of "...has seen a lot of love" I would have been happy if it had just been sat on.
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Not knowing the details of any particular instance, I would prefer a description of "box has split at all four corners, but I've reinforced it on the inside, using card" to a euphemistic and elliptical description that is essentially deceptive. That's where adherence to standardised conditions helps: if there's a mismatch, it's actionable.
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Dan Condon-Jones
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MasMurda wrote:
How long does one reasonably wait to follow up about the status of the item after the trade proposal has been accepted?

I haven't had any response about shipping or delays since accepting the trade proposal nearly 2 weeks ago - have I waited long enough?

Well I just sent an email today querying the one (out of 11) game I haven’t yet received - so guess I think it’s about time.
 
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Dan Condon-Jones
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Two and a half weeks after accepting the trade, I've still got one game not arrived, not showing as shipped and the person isn't responding to any messages I send.

How long should I leave it before getting admins involved?
 
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dancj wrote:
Two and a half weeks after accepting the trade, I've still got one game not send, not showing as shipped and the person isn't responding to any messages I send.

How long should I leave it before getting admins involved?


PM me the details please.
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Dan Condon-Jones
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sa266 wrote:
dancj wrote:
Two and a half weeks after accepting the trade, I've still got one game not send, not showing as shipped and the person isn't responding to any messages I send.

How long should I leave it before getting admins involved?


PM me the details please.

Done
 
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I've just received an extremely rude and accusatory email from a trader whose items I've not received. He tells me the items have been lost by MyHermes.

I'm a bit worked up by his message, so I'll try to keep this calm and stick to the facts.

I value the items he is supposed to have sent at £35. This is based on actual sales in the BGG marketplace, at midpoint pricing, and excluding any shipping costs.

He is only willing to send me the game I sent, plus reimburse shipping costs. The cost of this to him would be £15-£18.

Now the game I sent wasn't available in retail at the time of the Maths Trade. So the value of the game I sent was significantly higher at the time of the Maths Trade.

Not to mention I'm not really interested in receiving a copy of a game that I wanted to trade away.

In my view, it was his responsibility to get the items to me. As the items haven't arrived, he should be claiming the full value of the items he sent from the courier he used, and then reimbursing me. If the items weren't insured for their full value, or he has chosen a courier that make insurance claims difficult, then that's his responsibility.

I'm especially annoyed as he has accused me of trying to "profit" from the maths trade, and he implies that the moderator is on his side in him stating this. It seems he would be happy making a profit, as he could claim back the full value, and then send me something worth half (or less than half) of that. Plus he has the game he received in the trade.

Not to mention that everyone "profits" from a Maths Trade, we are all swapping things we don't want for things we do want. If that's not profiting, I don't know what is.

He is also telling me, unequivocally, that the rules of the trade are that when there's a disagreement about reimbursements, then the person who's lost out only needs to receive a copy of the game they sent, plus reimbursement for postage.

Here's exactly what he said:

Quote:
The compensation is decided by the value of item(s) you sent plus the postage you paid to ship your item, rather than the value of items you were supposed to receive.


Is this right? I don't see this written in the rules. It doesn't make sense to me that this would be the rule. Surely if you're claiming compensation for a lost item, you claim the amount the item was worth. No courier would reimburse for something that was sent by someone else, to a third party. Or am I missing something?

What should I do in this situation?
 
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My understanding is that the trader is obligated to provide you with the item you were due to receive, or an alternative that you are happy with. It sounds like this is not what you are being offered, so if you can't come to an agreement then it sounds like Sharon should get involved.

I had a similar situation where an item I was due went missing in the post. The sender originally offered to send me cash equal to the value that he had paid for the item. I replied that I couldn't get a copy of the game for that price anymore (he'd got it on sale), and suggested a price that matched the cheapest copy on BGG marketplace. He agreed without complaint (what a nice guy).

The day after he'd sent me the cash, the game turned up on my doorstep anyway (a month after being posted), so I refunded his money.

That's how I think it should work in such situations. You should receive the game you were due, a cash equivalent or some other mutually agreeable recompense.
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revgiblet wrote:
My understanding is that the trader is obligated to provide you with the item you were due to receive, or an alternative that you are happy with. It sounds like this is not what you are being offered, so if you can't come to an agreement then it sounds like Sharon should get involved.

I had a similar situation where an item I was due went missing in the post. The sender originally offered to send me cash equal to the value that he had paid for the item. I replied that I couldn't get a copy of the game for that price anymore (he'd got it on sale), and suggested a price that matched the cheapest copy on BGG marketplace. He agreed without complaint (what a nice guy).

The day after he'd sent me the cash, the game turned up on my doorstep anyway (a month after being posted), so I refunded his money.

That's how I think it should work in such situations. You should receive the game you were due, a cash equivalent or some other mutually agreeable recompense.


Thank you, that makes sense. The trade was for a set of expansions, one of which I really wanted, one I wanted, and a few I kinda wanted. The cheapest price I can find for the one I really wanted is now £27.

Have contacted Sharon for her advice.
 
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both parties have independently asked me to resolve this, so leave it with me. the problem is deciding the value of the items, which the two traders disagree on. while the ideal solution is to claim compensation and use that to supply the game as expected, unfortunately that is not always possible.
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It's unfortunate, but if you're getting back the game you sent along with money to cover the postage cost, then you haven't actually lost out. Seems reasonable to me.
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davymast wrote:
Here's exactly what he said:

Quote:
The compensation is decided by the value of item(s) you sent plus the postage you paid to ship your item, rather than the value of items you were supposed to receive.


Is this right? I don't see this written in the rules. It doesn't make sense to me that this would be the rule. Surely if you're claiming compensation for a lost item, you claim the amount the item was worth. No courier would reimburse for something that was sent by someone else, to a third party. Or am I missing something?

What should I do in this situation?
I don't have a problem with this. It means you haven't lost out. You haven't "gained", but you haven't lost out. The rules are deficient in many areas, this being one.

The basic concept of insurance (for example) is to put you back in the same place you were before the "insurable event" occurred. In your case that means having the game you traded away (in the same or better condition) plus the postage you paid out.

It has long been the principle in MTs that in the event of an item being lost, the sender "makes good". "Making good" must include putting you back in the same position you were before the trade.

I know you feel you have "lost out" but you have only "lost out" in the same sense of "losing out" that happens after a re-run, although of course you got a lot closer to getting the game you wanted in this case!

I'm sure that a "rude and accusatory" message from the sender didn't help the matter on little bit, and was quite inflammatory (and why on earth s/he would have done that is beyond me - it's easy enough to check tracking with shipments by myhermes). One can be assertive without being nasty and when you have failed in your duty (even if a third party is responsible) a little humility and politeness is the minimum to be expected.

In conclusion then, the offer from the sender is compatible with "making good" even if their attitude stinks. Should they be made to cough-up some extra cash/value because of the way they went about things? No, sorry.

davymast wrote:
It seems he would be happy making a profit, as he could claim back the full value, and then send me something worth half (or less than half) of that. Plus he has the game he received in the trade.
myHermes standard compensation is £25*. However if s/he booked the package via parcel2go for example it's likely the compensation was £0 (that's one way in which p2g can quote cheaper prices than the courier themselves).

* https://www.myhermes.co.uk/home/help/news/Parcel-Cover-Updat...

If s/he receives compensation of £25 from myhermes then s/he should pay that over to you, notwithstanding what I wrote above.

davymast wrote:
The trade was for a set of expansions, one of which I really wanted, one I wanted, and a few I kinda wanted. The cheapest price I can find for the one I really wanted is now £27.
This is a problem: one might say that the best way to "make good" is for the sender to send the missing item again (buying it from an OLGS for example). In this case, it's highly unlikely that he could assemble that collection of expansions again, and so it's no-one's fault that this way of "making good cannot be met".

That leaves "making sure you haven't lost out" as the next best way of "making good". To do otherwise gets into the murky waters of deciding what both parties thought their games were worth at the time of the trade and that they're worth now.

You say you valued your game at £35 at the time of the trade, but as you know it's now available new for as little as £12.62 delivered. You have no idea how the sender valued his bundle of expansions: he may have valued them at £10, £12.62 or £100. We can see that you valued his expansions at £35.

Trying to arbitrate who valued what at how much and what the "true" values are is not easy - perhaps impossible. The only objectively accurate way left* of "making this good" is to make sure you haven't lost out: you get a new copy of the game you traded away plus your postage, and you're no worse off (or you get £25 + postage if the courier pays out £25).

*given that the sender cannot reasonably be expected to reassemble his bundle of expansions
 
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