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Subject: Discussion Thread for the UK Maths Trade April 2019 rss

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Jim Smith
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I don't need to create a safe space to debate with you. Whilst you are of course correct that your ability to form opinions and express them with your keyboard enables you to share them here, your decision to do so repeatedly, and against the wishes of some of the other users present, rubs me up the wrong way.

Yes, I could happily just ignore you, as you openly ignore the opinions and wishes of others, and even as I write this I think that's probably what I should have done, but I prefer to challenge the sort of condescension that you purvey in the name of making your voice heard.

Your efforts to dissect my post so you can explain the minutiae of how wrong I am is appreciated, however I can't help but chuckle at the emphasis added in the final post, in which you conveniently ignore the last four words. I would argue that ship had sailed before you began describing the organiser as a 'servant'.

As you're determined to be correct on this I will leave you to your moral outrage over the rules of an online trade. Happy trading!
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Anna Plocica
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MLBath wrote:
Last time I tried to do the myHermes instore printing, it came up with a range of prices by weight (as it used to, except all the prices used to be £2.85).

Has anybody done the comparison to work out which is the cheapest postage system at the moment? It would be useful to know before listing some of my cheaper stuff in the trade.

If not, I'll do the legwork myself in a few days.



Actually as of 1st of April MyHermes changed their prices. Now online prices are exactly the same as print in store option (I even went to my local store to check), and they changed their weight bands. Now 2-10kg costs almost 7GBP (rather annoying, as most games used to fall under 3-5kg category, that used to be 2.95 in store).
Oh well, time to explore other options.
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Ramon_Salazar wrote:
your decision to do so repeatedly, and against the wishes of some of the other users present, rubs me up the wrong way.
I rather think the way you find yourself rubbed-up is neither here nor there - it seems to add naught to ony discussion about what is or is not "arbitrage". That's really what I was interested in discussing but of course if tangential issues are raised that pique my interest I'm normally happy to continue to engage.
 
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Garrett
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And now for something completely different...

1. What would you do if you noticed that a game might possibly be a counterfeit copy? Flag it? Contact the trader? Ignore it?
No shade on the trader BTW...they might not even realise that they have a counterfeit copy. They could have got it in trade or bought it off Amazon. I won't give examples lest people get fixated on certain items.

2. Also, assuming that there were no photos uploaded and only a description was provided, what would you do if after a MT you realise you had received a counterfeit copy of a game? Azul, for example is being heavily counterfeited at the moment. What if you put in your 'best' items for it and got a fake. Would it matter?

Discuss.
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Fillipe Diniz
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EmpressGeek wrote:
And now for something completely different...

1. What would you do if you noticed that a game might possibly be a counterfeit copy? Flag it? Contact the trader? Ignore it?
No shade on the trader BTW...they might not even realise that they have a counterfeit copy. They could have got it in trade or bought it off Amazon. I won't give examples lest people get fixated on certain items.

2. Also, assuming that there were no photos uploaded and only a description was provided, what would you do if after a MT you realise you had received a counterfeit copy of a game? Azul, for example is being heavily counterfeited at the moment. What if you put in your 'best' items for it and got a fake. Would it matter?

Discuss.


1- I would assume the best and contact the trader to remove or better describe the item to reflect this.

2- I would contact the trader and ask for a refund/return given the item is not as specified. If that doesn’t work, I’d contact the organization to at least ban this user from future trades.
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Jon Bradford
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EmpressGeek wrote:
And now for something completely different...

1. What would you do if you noticed that a game might possibly be a counterfeit copy? Flag it? Contact the trader? Ignore it?
No shade on the trader BTW...they might not even realise that they have a counterfeit copy. They could have got it in trade or bought it off Amazon. I won't give examples lest people get fixated on certain items.

2. Also, assuming that there were no photos uploaded and only a description was provided, what would you do if after a MT you realise you had received a counterfeit copy of a game? Azul, for example is being heavily counterfeited at the moment. What if you put in your 'best' items for it and got a fake. Would it matter?

Discuss.


I think in case 1, I would contact the trader (and possibly Sharon), and be honest and express your concerns. If there is a reliable source of information about the counterfeit problems then include a link so the user (presuming they aren't acting maliciously) can verify their copy of the game.

In case 2, pretty much the same but keeping Sharon abreast of the situation from the start should be done.
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Parker McParker
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1. Contacting the trader is surely the best option? Make sure they're aware. If there's not much time, I'd alert Sharon as pulling the item will probably save trouble further down the line. I've seen games listed as the "Chinese version" before, but I would guess that the lister is usually in blissful ignorance to having a knock-off copy.

I've taken similar actions with PnP games that have occasionally been listed - especially when the retail edition of the game is freely available.


2. Is trickier - it's what you try to avoid by taking the action in 1. I hope there are enough anally-retentive, nose-poking, self-righteous arseholes like me scanning the trade to pick up most examples where there is a clue. The others will have to be treated on a case by case basis, I think.
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Anna Plocica
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Hey guys,

I have a rules question regarding trading for the same game.
Lets stick to Hanamikoji example.
I really want Hanamikoji ENglish and Coloretto.
Im putting up for trade Hanamikoji DE and Camel Up.
If I mark in my wants list that I want:
Hanamikoji EN - for my copy of Camel Up
Coloretto - for my copy of Hanamikoji DE.
And the box Hanamikoji for Hanamikoji I leave unticked, does it guarantee that they dont end up in the same loop and is hence allowed?
As I am effectively trading away a version i dont want for some other game, and getting the version I want for a different game.
That sort of thing would be ok, right?

Thanks,

Anna
 
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Trevor Taylor
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AtraPanthera wrote:
Hey guys,

I have a rules question regarding trading for the same game.
Lets stick to Hanamikoji example.
I really want Hanamikoji ENglish and Coloretto.
Im putting up for trade Hanamikoji DE and Camel Up.
If I mark in my wants list that I want:
Hanamikoji EN - for my copy of Camel Up
Coloretto - for my copy of Hanamikoji DE.
And the box Hanamikoji for Hanamikoji I leave unticked, does it guarantee that they dont end up in the same loop and is hence allowed?
As I am effectively trading away a version i dont want for some other game, and getting the version I want for a different game.
That sort of thing would be ok, right?

Thanks,

Anna


Nothing wrong with that. As long as you don't tick the box that says you would trade your DE for someone else's EN, you're fine.
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Parker McParker
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AtraPanthera wrote:
Hey guys,

I have a rules question regarding trading for the same game.
Lets stick to Hanamikoji example.
I really want Hanamikoji ENglish and Coloretto.
Im putting up for trade Hanamikoji DE and Camel Up.
If I mark in my wants list that I want:
Hanamikoji EN - for my copy of Camel Up
Coloretto - for my copy of Hanamikoji DE.
And the box Hanamikoji for Hanamikoji I leave unticked, does it guarantee that they dont end up in the same loop and is hence allowed?
As I am effectively trading away a version i dont want for some other game, and getting the version I want for a different game.
That sort of thing would be ok, right?

Thanks,

Anna


Nothing wrong with that.

And it throws up how simple the rule about game arbitrage is to circumvent. If you're worried about listing a German copy of a game for an English one, just bung a d6 or a 50p charity shop card game onto the listing as a sweetener. Bingo - no hassle for Sharon as it's no longer like-for-like. Some people might call you out as a cynical rules-dodger, but you can simply copy and paste this for your response:

Annoying Response #23.4b wrote:
Yeah, LOL. I'm Maths Trade ninja. Sucks to be you. Yolo.
 
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MC Crispy
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I thought that most MTs banned trades of X<―>X+Y as this is a form of arbitrage (trading your X for a "better" X). I think it's expressed as something like "trading a game for a bundle that includes that game". I don't think it would hit the main complaints about game for game arbitrage (in that it wouldn't automatically trade, unlike game for game) and it wouldn't downgrade everyone else's trade in X by swapping in the "inferior" copy of X. (Frankly, if it wasn't for the technical aspects of the effects of arbitrage on the TradeMaximizer - a tool limitation really - I'd say "tough, you accepted the trade in your OLWLG submission: you actually said that you'd accept X in exchange for X+Y, where's the problem?")
 
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Fillipe Diniz
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AtraPanthera wrote:
Hey guys,

I have a rules question regarding trading for the same game.
Lets stick to Hanamikoji example.
I really want Hanamikoji ENglish and Coloretto.
Im putting up for trade Hanamikoji DE and Camel Up.
If I mark in my wants list that I want:
Hanamikoji EN - for my copy of Camel Up
Coloretto - for my copy of Hanamikoji DE.
And the box Hanamikoji for Hanamikoji I leave unticked, does it guarantee that they dont end up in the same loop and is hence allowed?
As I am effectively trading away a version i dont want for some other game, and getting the version I want for a different game.
That sort of thing would be ok, right?

Thanks,

Anna


I would avoid it as it would be open for interpretation and lead to your exclusion from the trade further on, but Sharon can give you a definitive answer.

I have a similar case, but decided to just put my copy for trade now, and maybe try to get the version I want in another trade 2 months from now.
 
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Sharon Khan
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Filliped wrote:
AtraPanthera wrote:
Hey guys,

I have a rules question regarding trading for the same game.
Lets stick to Hanamikoji example.
I really want Hanamikoji ENglish and Coloretto.
Im putting up for trade Hanamikoji DE and Camel Up.
If I mark in my wants list that I want:
Hanamikoji EN - for my copy of Camel Up
Coloretto - for my copy of Hanamikoji DE.
And the box Hanamikoji for Hanamikoji I leave unticked, does it guarantee that they dont end up in the same loop and is hence allowed?
As I am effectively trading away a version i dont want for some other game, and getting the version I want for a different game.
That sort of thing would be ok, right?

Thanks,

Anna


I would avoid it as it would be open for interpretation and lead to your exclusion from the trade further on, but Sharon can give you a definitive answer.

I have a similar case, but decided to just put my copy for trade now, and maybe try to get the version I want in another trade 2 months from now.


As long as it's not a direct trade of one game for another version of the same game, then it's fine. So the example above would be ok as long as you don't tick Han for Han in Stage 4.
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Garrett
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Filliped wrote:
EmpressGeek wrote:
And now for something completely different...

1. What would you do if you noticed that a game might possibly be a counterfeit copy? Flag it? Contact the trader? Ignore it?
No shade on the trader BTW...they might not even realise that they have a counterfeit copy. They could have got it in trade or bought it off Amazon. I won't give examples lest people get fixated on certain items.

2. Also, assuming that there were no photos uploaded and only a description was provided, what would you do if after a MT you realise you had received a counterfeit copy of a game? Azul, for example is being heavily counterfeited at the moment. What if you put in your 'best' items for it and got a fake. Would it matter?

Discuss.


1- I would assume the best and contact the trader to remove or better describe the item to reflect this.

2- I would contact the trader and ask for a refund/return given the item is not as specified. If that doesn’t work, I’d contact the organization to at least ban this user from future trades.


Hi Filipe,
Thanks for the response.
As for 2 I don't know that I could say that the game was not as specified. I put in for Game X, I got Game X. The trader made no promises that it was the original Game X, just that it was 'good condition with free shipping to UK'. They could then turn around and say, "Well I never said what version it was. I thought it was the real deal so I sent it on in good faith."
 
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Garrett
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MLBath wrote:
1. Contacting the trader is surely the best option? Make sure they're aware. If there's not much time, I'd alert Sharon as pulling the item will probably save trouble further down the line. I've seen games listed as the "Chinese version" before, but I would guess that the lister is usually in blissful ignorance to having a knock-off copy.

I've taken similar actions with PnP games that have occasionally been listed - especially when the retail edition of the game is freely available.


2. Is trickier - it's what you try to avoid by taking the action in 1. I hope there are enough anally-retentive, nose-poking, self-righteous arseholes like me scanning the trade to pick up most examples where there is a clue. The others will have to be treated on a case by case basis, I think.

1. I was thinking of letting them know because on the one hand I don't want someone to get burned by a fake copy (especially tricky if there are multiple copies in the trade and it goes unnoticed under the duplication protection umbrella), but on the other hand I don't want to be 'That Guy', Rules Police. Not everybody has been on BGG as long as I have or frequent all the nooks and crannies of it so I assume blissful ignorance, plus there are fake copies filtered all the time through Amazon and eBay. He could have come by his copy legitimately.

2. I don't know that I would catch it normally. I already own the game and I don't generally parse the geeklist preferring instead to use the OLWLG almost exclusively. It just stood out given that it was a heavily discussed game that was a victim of the counterfeiters and there are photo comparisons around which is why I was aware of it.
 
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MC Crispy
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EmpressGeek wrote:
Filliped wrote:
EmpressGeek wrote:
And now for something completely different...

1. What would you do if you noticed that a game might possibly be a counterfeit copy? Flag it? Contact the trader? Ignore it?
No shade on the trader BTW...they might not even realise that they have a counterfeit copy. They could have got it in trade or bought it off Amazon. I won't give examples lest people get fixated on certain items.

2. Also, assuming that there were no photos uploaded and only a description was provided, what would you do if after a MT you realise you had received a counterfeit copy of a game? Azul, for example is being heavily counterfeited at the moment. What if you put in your 'best' items for it and got a fake. Would it matter?

Discuss.


1- I would assume the best and contact the trader to remove or better describe the item to reflect this.

2- I would contact the trader and ask for a refund/return given the item is not as specified. If that doesn’t work, I’d contact the organization to at least ban this user from future trades.


Hi Filipe,
Thanks for the response.
As for 2 I don't know that I could say that the game was not as specified. I put in for Game X, I got Game X. The trader made no promises that it was the original Game X, just that it was 'good condition with free shipping to UK'. They could then turn around and say, "Well I never said what version it was. I thought it was the real deal so I sent it on in good faith."
"Please ensure that you accurately list the condition, edition and language of the game. For condition please use the BGG guidelines". My experience with the MT is that this is the most widely ignored and under-policed rule of the MT (followed closely by the rules on condition). I guess it's arguable that edition and version are not equivalent - another rules area that could be tightened up.
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Parker McParker
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mccrispy wrote:
"Please ensure that you accurately list the condition, edition and language of the game. For condition please use the BGG guidelines". My experience with the MT is that this is the most widely ignored and under-policed rule of the MT (followed closely by the rules on condition). I guess it's arguable that edition and version are not equivalent - another rules area that could be tightened up.


It is often ignored. A while ago I suggested that wording similar to the European Maths Trade be adopted:

EUMT wrote:
Wear & tear on the box or the components, missing components or boxes, older editions, any modifications, non-English editions of language dependent games, should be mentioned explicitly and in BOLD. This applies also for any sweeteners.


I think the argument against (that there will be posters who don't read the rules and post up a German version without flagging it) holds some water, but if you're particularly concerned by a high value trade and want reassurance, you could ask specifically. I often end up doing this anyway under the current system as the clause MC quoted above is so regularly ignored. I like the idea of putting the emphasis on the poster to check everything before listing their games. I believe it is what most of us do anyway.

Also note that the sixteen posts below, about copying rules from our EU neighbours and how it was better in the old days, when we did our maths trades in imperial units were not my intention. You're not funny.
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MC Crispy
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MLBath wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
"Please ensure that you accurately list the condition, edition and language of the game. For condition please use the BGG guidelines". My experience with the MT is that this is the most widely ignored and under-policed rule of the MT (followed closely by the rules on condition). I guess it's arguable that edition and version are not equivalent - another rules area that could be tightened up.


It is often ignored. A while ago I suggested that wording similar to the European Maths Trade be adopted:

EUMT wrote:
Wear & tear on the box or the components, missing components or boxes, older editions, any modifications, non-English editions of language dependent games, should be mentioned explicitly and in BOLD. This applies also for any sweeteners.


I think the argument against (that there will be posters who don't read the rules and post up a German version without flagging it) holds some water, but if you're particularly concerned by a high value trade and want reassurance, you could ask specifically. I often end up doing this anyway under the current system as the clause MC quoted above is so regularly ignored. I like the idea of putting the emphasis on the poster to check everything before listing their games. I believe it is what most of us do anyway.

Also note that the sixteen posts below, about copying rules from our EU neighbours and how it was better in the old days, when we did our maths trades in imperial units were not my intention. You're not funny.
If folks made sure that their BGG collection was accurate wrt version, this information would automatically appear in the MT. Do it once, reap the benefit multiple times. But as you say, who can be arsed to read rules (or learn how to use a tool)? "English, Excellent condition" is not a compliant entry.
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Anna Plocica
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sa266 wrote:
Filliped wrote:
AtraPanthera wrote:
Hey guys,

I have a rules question regarding trading for the same game.
Lets stick to Hanamikoji example.
I really want Hanamikoji ENglish and Coloretto.
Im putting up for trade Hanamikoji DE and Camel Up.
If I mark in my wants list that I want:
Hanamikoji EN - for my copy of Camel Up
Coloretto - for my copy of Hanamikoji DE.
And the box Hanamikoji for Hanamikoji I leave unticked, does it guarantee that they dont end up in the same loop and is hence allowed?
As I am effectively trading away a version i dont want for some other game, and getting the version I want for a different game.
That sort of thing would be ok, right?

Thanks,

Anna


I would avoid it as it would be open for interpretation and lead to your exclusion from the trade further on, but Sharon can give you a definitive answer.

I have a similar case, but decided to just put my copy for trade now, and maybe try to get the version I want in another trade 2 months from now.


As long as it's not a direct trade of one game for another version of the same game, then it's fine. So the example above would be ok as long as you don't tick Han for Han in Stage 4.



Thank you, its good to get a confirmation!
A.
 
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Trevor Taylor
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mccrispy wrote:
MLBath wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
"Please ensure that you accurately list the condition, edition and language of the game. For condition please use the BGG guidelines". My experience with the MT is that this is the most widely ignored and under-policed rule of the MT (followed closely by the rules on condition). I guess it's arguable that edition and version are not equivalent - another rules area that could be tightened up.


It is often ignored. A while ago I suggested that wording similar to the European Maths Trade be adopted:

EUMT wrote:
Wear & tear on the box or the components, missing components or boxes, older editions, any modifications, non-English editions of language dependent games, should be mentioned explicitly and in BOLD. This applies also for any sweeteners.


I think the argument against (that there will be posters who don't read the rules and post up a German version without flagging it) holds some water, but if you're particularly concerned by a high value trade and want reassurance, you could ask specifically. I often end up doing this anyway under the current system as the clause MC quoted above is so regularly ignored. I like the idea of putting the emphasis on the poster to check everything before listing their games. I believe it is what most of us do anyway.

Also note that the sixteen posts below, about copying rules from our EU neighbours and how it was better in the old days, when we did our maths trades in imperial units were not my intention. You're not funny.
If folks made sure that their BGG collection was accurate wrt version, this information would automatically appear in the MT. Do it once, reap the benefit multiple times. But as you say, who can be arsed to read rules (or learn how to use a tool)? "English, Excellent condition" is not a compliant entry.


Well 'compliance' isn't exact for this trade. Certainly not the EUMT. However our rules do say.

Quote:
- Please ensure that you accurately list the condition, edition and language of the game. For condition please use the BGG guidelines.


It depends how literal you want to make the highlighted. There isn't really a guideline on BGG. But they do have the condition options for the marketplace and what they mean.

From this, pretty much everything I received would have been new/like new/very good.

https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Condition_of_a_game

But I've not really received anything where the condition didn't match the description, so my view is likely different from some others.
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MC Crispy
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negatrev wrote:
Quote:
- Please ensure that you accurately list the condition, edition and language of the game. For condition please use the BGG guidelines.


It depends how literal you want to make the highlighted. There isn't really a guideline on BGG. But they do have the condition options for the marketplace and what they mean.

From this, pretty much everything I received would have been new/like new/very good.

https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Condition_of_a_game

But I've not really received anything where the condition didn't match the description, so my view is likely different from some others.
I've always taken that phrase to refer to the GeekMarket guidelines (I remember the discussions that went into adopting them for the MT and for creating a Wiki entry for them), but you're right, it's very wooly wording in the MT rules that (sadly) don't provide a link to the guidelines. But then few read the rules anyway (or we wouldn't have descriptions like "condition: excellent").
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Anna Plocica
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mccrispy wrote:
MLBath wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
"Please ensure that you accurately list the condition, edition and language of the game. For condition please use the BGG guidelines". My experience with the MT is that this is the most widely ignored and under-policed rule of the MT (followed closely by the rules on condition). I guess it's arguable that edition and version are not equivalent - another rules area that could be tightened up.


It is often ignored. A while ago I suggested that wording similar to the European Maths Trade be adopted:

EUMT wrote:
Wear & tear on the box or the components, missing components or boxes, older editions, any modifications, non-English editions of language dependent games, should be mentioned explicitly and in BOLD. This applies also for any sweeteners.


I think the argument against (that there will be posters who don't read the rules and post up a German version without flagging it) holds some water, but if you're particularly concerned by a high value trade and want reassurance, you could ask specifically. I often end up doing this anyway under the current system as the clause MC quoted above is so regularly ignored. I like the idea of putting the emphasis on the poster to check everything before listing their games. I believe it is what most of us do anyway.

Also note that the sixteen posts below, about copying rules from our EU neighbours and how it was better in the old days, when we did our maths trades in imperial units were not my intention. You're not funny.
If folks made sure that their BGG collection was accurate wrt version, this information would automatically appear in the MT. Do it once, reap the benefit multiple times. But as you say, who can be arsed to read rules (or learn how to use a tool)? "English, Excellent condition" is not a compliant entry.


I have participated in MT twice so far, so Im really new to the whole thing. When I first joined, I read the tutorial in detail, where it was giving some rules from the US maths trades. Those were stating:
"You must describe, as accurately as possible, the condition of the components and box, the language, and edition of your item and any sweeteners. If you do not, the game is expected to be complete, in like-new condition and be the most recent English edition.".
In the last maths trade I added to my want list a game that didnt state the version nor edition, so based on that tutorial rule, I assumed it must be latest edition.
I was quite disappointed when I received much older edition of the game.
I realized that it was my own fault, because the UK maths trade doesnt include that above mentioned rule and I havent double checked which edition it was, just assuming it was the latest. So now I will know for the future.
Of course, its nice when the seller lists the edition each time, but it doesnt hurt to double check. Better safe than sorry. This is what I learned at least
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Danil Potemkin
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Dahanil wrote:
Anyone advise re putting a played copy of Charterstone up for trade? It’s been played once, so still replayable with a recharge pack (but that’s not included in my trade). What’s the best way to put this up? Think someone might be interested in a trade, but don’t want traders to mistakenly assume it’d be a new copy...


bump - anyone able to advise on the above?
 
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Garrett
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mccrispy wrote:
But then few read the rules anyway (or we wouldn't have descriptions like "condition: excellent").

Hey! I read the rules and I use 'condition: excellent'!!! whistle

Anyway thanks for all the responses above.

If I were interested in the game enough I'd definitely ask the questions, and recommend others do the same, about version/edition/language though. Most of the listings are very casual. I still encourage people to look in the BGG gallery at the photos of a game to check if a game is language independent as well. There are some games that are still being listed in the MT (even from being flagged up to them before) that the owners insist are such when they have foreign text on the components. As much as it's supposed to be up to the poster to describe the game accurately, at the end of the day the receiver is the one who'll be displeased if it goes wrong so the onus is them to make sure they're getting what they imagined. If somebody has a damaged game that they describe as 'not that bad but I suppose I could possibly upload pictures if you really want me to' then yeah...ask! My idea, your idea, and their idea of 'not that bad' could be completely different things!!! As for me I see that as a barrier. Those listings make me feel like it's a BIIIG hassle to ask the trader otherwise they'd just have put the photo in the original listing to begin with. No matter how badly I want the game I just skip over those. Power to the intrepid!
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Tyler Martin
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Dahanil wrote:
Dahanil wrote:
Anyone advise re putting a played copy of Charterstone up for trade? It’s been played once, so still replayable with a recharge pack (but that’s not included in my trade). What’s the best way to put this up? Think someone might be interested in a trade, but don’t want traders to mistakenly assume it’d be a new copy...


bump - anyone able to advise on the above?


Maybe list it as an outside the scope of BGG item witht he alt name USED COPY OF CHARTERSTONE*. That way people only using OLWLG and only seeing titles wouldn't mistake it for a new one.
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