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Subject: Abandoning java at mindsports.nl rss

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christian freeling
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I'm eternally grateful for all the work Ed did, completely voluntary, by creating mindsports to support my games. So with java applets going the way of the dinosaur I really thought it was just a matter of time before mindsports would follow suit. Of course I wasn't happy about it, but starting all over again in html5, I thought, would be a bit to much to ask. So although we discussed the possibility occasionally, I never asked.

That's why I was elated to hear him say "I've had it with java" and that he intends to rebuild the site in html5. I was quick to say that so far as I'm concerned 'the Pit' merely contains collateral damage and that only ArenA games would need the option of online play, and maybe not even all of them.

It's a lot of work nevertheless and for Ed it's a hobby in between a job and other hobbies, so it'll start when it starts and progress gradually. The first games will be the more simple ones, implementation wise, like Symple and Havannah. It's great to realise we're still alive!
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Nick Bentley
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this is great news!
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Andy Leighton
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I'm a developer who has written Java and Javascript (and still does).

I think that with the original Java source moving to a pure HTML5 (maybe even SVG) display with some javascript should produce a much nicer environment for people to play (and watch) games.
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Danger Mouse
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Html/Javascript is nice. I wrote my free games at games.chartmygolf.com with html/javascript. AI as well.

Anything you can do in Java you can do just as easily in javascript/html. The latter also has the bonus of a really nice UI. I personally belive nothing surpasses html/css in UI.

Penguin Slide is my favourite.

I find people generally find the Bouncing Bunnies game to be too much of a brain burner. You have to get to the carrots, but be the last person to do so to get the most points. It is tricky.

I am writing a real time game with html/javascript at the moment. I am getting a nice frame rate with just the basic canvas without the need to go to WebGL.

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Daniel Piovezan
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Great news!

I think that maybe it would be best not to implement online play for games that already have a good implementation somewhere else. It would only split the community.
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christian freeling
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BozoDel wrote:
Great news!

I think that maybe it would be best not to implement online play for games that already have a good implementation somewhere else. It would only split the community.

In my provisional view Go, Chess, Shogi, Draughts, Stapeldammen and Hex belong there because they provide a conceptual context for my games. Of the current ArenA games Mu won't be implemented and Chad, Rotary, Bushka, Pit of Pillars and Scware don't have a high priority and may also not be implemented at all.
It would only split me.
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David Buckley
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23rd June: Black Thursday :(
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christianF wrote:

I'm eternally grateful for all the work Ed did, completely voluntary, by creating mindsports to support my games. So with java applets going the way of the dinosaur I really thought it was just a matter of time before mindsports would follow suit. Of course I wasn't happy about it, but starting all over again in html5, I thought, would be a bit to much to ask. So although we discussed the possibility occasionally, I never asked.

That's why I was elated to hear him say "I've had it with java" and that he intends to rebuild the site in html5. I was quick to say that so far as I'm concerned 'the Pit' merely contains collateral damage and that only ArenA games would need the option of online play, and maybe not even all of them.

It's a lot of work nevertheless and for Ed it's a hobby in between a job and other hobbies, so it'll start when it starts and progress gradually. The first games will be the more simple ones, implementation wise, like Symple and Havannah. It's great to realise we're still alive!


Please keep us updated. I look forward to playing on mindsports again!
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David Buckley
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23rd June: Black Thursday :(
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christianF wrote:
BozoDel wrote:
Great news!

I think that maybe it would be best not to implement online play for games that already have a good implementation somewhere else. It would only split the community.

In my provisional view Go, Chess, Shogi, Draughts, Stapeldammen and Hex belong there because they provide a conceptual context for my games. Of the current ArenA games Mu won't be implemented and Chad, Rotary, Bushka, Pit of Pillars and Scware don't have a high priority and may also not be implemented at all.
It would only split me.


Firstly many thanks to yourself and Ed for providing this free service. It feels a bit presumptuous to tell you what games should or should not be implement but the games I'm most keen to play there are the games I can't already play elsewhere. FWLIW my wishlist is: Symple/Sygo, Xodd/Yodd, Bashni, Bushka, Jumpsturdy, Storisende, Dominions and Hexdame.
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christian freeling
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Buckersuk wrote:
Firstly many thanks to yourself and Ed for providing this free service. It feels a bit presumptuous to tell you what games should or should not be implement but the games I'm most keen to play there are the games I can't already play elsewhere. FWLIW my wishlist is: Symple/Sygo, Xodd/Yodd, Bashni, Bushka, Jumpsturdy, Storisende, Dominions and Hexdame.

Eventually we may add the minor games. The six games that I consider 'significant' in terms of abstract strategy, will certainly be implemented. The six traditionals I mentioned will also have some priority because of the context they provide. But my general idea is a certain limitation. We plan to give the rules of the collateral damage, but nothing more and only for context. As for games of other inventors I'm not sure yet. We'll see about that if and when we're satisfied with the provisional result. I feel grateful that Ed wants to do it at all, so I'm rather reluctant to push it any further. The core of my work, so far as I'm concerned, consists of only six games. At some point the others become distractions.
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christian freeling
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http://mindsports.nl/index.php/dagaz

It's a start

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Russ Williams
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christianF wrote:

Cool, it works for me; I just played a game of Dameo vs the AI!

PS: "loosing" on that page should be "losing".
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Daniel Piovezan
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That Dagaz software seems rather obscure! I could find it on Github, but there's no description at all. How did you come across it?
 
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christian freeling
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BozoDel wrote:
That Dagaz software seems rather obscure! I could find it on Github, but there's no description at all. How did you come across it?

I didn't, but Ed got acquainted with Valentin Chelnokov and it started from there. I was largely out of the loop.
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Ed van Zon
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BozoDel wrote:
That Dagaz software seems rather obscure! I could find it on Github, but there's no description at all. How did you come across it?


Just to chime in for once: the lack of documentation means there's a steep learning curve, yes. I haven't figured it all out yet. I guess Valentin likes coding more than writing docs, although he claims he's just not fluent enough in the English language.
But he's eager to answer any question I have and help me out if he can. No problem conversing in English .

I came in contact with Valentin through the work I do for Zillions of Games. Over the years he has submitted quite a variety of games for ZoG (68 so far: http://zillionsofgames.com/cgi-bin/zilligames/submissions.cg...), both in the original zrf language as well as for the Axiom plug-in for ZoG (http://zillionsofgames.com/cgi-bin/zilligames/submissions.cg...). I have long been quite impressed by his work.
Than, about a year ago, he mentioned (almost as a side note) he was developing his own games platform, intending to improve on both ZoG and Axiom. That's how I came across Dagaz.

Since it's free to use and modify in any way I like (MIT license) and comes from a prolific abstract games implementer I hold in high regard, I thought to give it a go as the platform to modernise our Players Section with.

So far I don't regret it, even if Dagaz isn't perfect (yet).
Dagaz is currently lacking the ability to save and load a game in progress. Valentin is working on that as we speak .

cheers, Ed
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So it goes.
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russ wrote:
Cool, it works for me; I just played a game of Dameo vs the AI!


Same! This spells the end of my productivity.
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Russ Williams
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A strange thing is that sometimes after the AI makes its move, I can't click to make mine for a short while, as it is still thinking (high cpu load, fan whirring) as if the AI is still thinking.
 
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So it goes.
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russ wrote:
A strange thing is that sometimes after the AI makes its move, I can't click to make mine for a short while, as it is still thinking (high cpu load, fan whirring) as if the AI is still thinking.


It might be doing some off-turn thinking. Many game AIs do.
 
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christian freeling
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I don't know any specifics about the Ai except that it is "not very strong". But it's a provisional implementation.
 
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Ed van Zon
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russ wrote:
A strange thing is that sometimes after the AI makes its move, I can't click to make mine for a short while, as it is still thinking (high cpu load, fan whirring) as if the AI is still thinking.

If you wait a few seconds, the AI thinks about your move, which you can take by clicking the redo button (the little ‘turn right’ arrow). If you don’t like it, you can undo (‘turn left’) after black/AI has played his move.
I don’t particularly like this feature, but changing it is low on my priority list. The Players Section won’t be featuring the AI at all.
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christian freeling
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Is there anybody out there?

We are, still! Ed considers javascript a nice language with a certain amount of freedom that stimulates creativity. I wouldn't know of course but the results are not bad:
http://mindsports.nl/index.php/dagaz
Not public yet but freely accessible. The main focus for now is not AI but rather making a good way for players to engage in human vs human games and these implementations will be the backbone.

Meanwhile Aleh Tapalnitski from Belarus is writing a very good Dameo tutor called "Meet Dameo". It is some 50+ pages now and I do some language editing and proofreading. The content is impressive to say the least. Aleh has a great talent for examples and problems of high quality and a particularly ingenious character. I'll keep you posted.

David Ploog's book on abstract games is getting along fine and I'm doing some of the proofreading there too. The weather doesn't support apathy, I need far more sunshine for that.
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David Ploog
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christianF wrote:
Is there anybody out there?
Yes, not too much going on over here. Hopefully only related to the holidays season?

Quote:
Many thanks for doing that, this is looking very good! The inevitable nitpick: I suggest allowing board size for Symple, but I'd guess that would come at a later stage.

Quote:
Meanwhile Aleh Tapalnitski from Belarus is writing a very good Dameo tutor called "Meet Dameo". It is some 50+ pages now and I do some language editing and proofreading.
This is great news, I am very excited!

Quote:
David Ploog's book on abstract games is getting along fine
Thanks for the kind words, and for the proofreading! (If anyone is curious about the project: drop me a private message. The manuscript is at 150 pages right now. I can use all the feedback you people can give.) I wanted to upload another game before the holiday break but then term end and work prevented that. The theory chapter put on some meat, though. I'll only be posting in August again.
 
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christian freeling
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dpeggie wrote:
Quote:
Meanwhile Aleh Tapalnitski from Belarus is writing a very good Dameo tutor called "Meet Dameo". It is some 50+ pages now and I do some language editing and proofreading.
This is great news, I am very excited!
As soon as I've edited the next ten or so pages I'll send it to you with the email address. Aleh already suggested that.

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Ed van Zon
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Breaking news: Xodd and Yodd are Java-free now in the MindSports Players Section! More to follow ...
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christian freeling
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I briefly spoke with Ed. Transferring games to the Player Section turned out relatively forgiving and Dameo is next.
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Ed van Zon
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Dameo is no longer next.
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