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The 7th Continent» Forums » Rules

Subject: Discard timing when taking randomly from discard pile rss

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Jeremy Lennert
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If a card says something like "discard this to take N cards randomly from the discard and...", do you discard it before or after drawing from the discard? That is, should this card have a chance of drawing itself?

"Discard" seems to be the first instruction written on such cards, which kind of implies it should happen first.

However, that implies you have to shuffle it into the discard pile before you've finished resolving the instructions on the card (sometimes there are extra steps after drawing from the discard; for instance, there's a character-specific card that tells you to summon a particular green card if the action is a failure after drawing). That seems pretty inconvenient.
 
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Robin Zigmond
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I can't quote any official ruling, but it's always seemed clear to me that you discard the card, then shuffle and draw from the discard - so yes you have a chance to redraw the same card. I don't see why this is any more inconvenient than any time you need to shuffle the discards - such as when you eat.
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Jeremy Lennert
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It's not the shuffling itself that's inconvenient, it's that you can no longer refer to the card while you are carrying out the remainder of the instructions (because you've just shuffled it). So you have to do everything from memory.

For instance, if the card says to summon XXX if the action fails, you might accidentally summon XXY instead because you've forgotten the exact number and can no longer check.
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karel pepiku
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I do not know what the official ruling is in this case, but we have long been playing it that the discarded card does not go into the shuffled cards.

The other way, i.e. discarding before shuffling/selecting, may lead to some weird infinite combos, like Anjika + War Paint.
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Graham Robinson
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I've always played that any card that says "return", "banish", "discard" you follow everything on the card, and then get rid of it to the appropriate pile, regardless of where it says to get rid of it.

I can't see how else you would be able to correctly follow the instructions.

Cheers,
Graham
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Randal Divinski
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Here is how I handle "discard" in this context.

1) The card is set aside while all its effects are carried out. It is in "limbo" (not in hand, inventory, discard pile, etc.).

2) All actions/effects related to the card are carried out (resolved).

3) Now the card goes to the discard pile, before starting the next action.

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Jeremy Lennert
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karelpepiku wrote:
The other way, i.e. discarding before shuffling/selecting, may lead to some weird infinite combos, like Anjika + War Paint.
Do you just mean that she could discard War Paint from her hand to put War Paint into her hand? I don't see how that causes any problems. Lots of games include legal actions with no net effect, and people typically don't care.
 
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Aaron Bredon
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Antistone wrote:
karelpepiku wrote:
The other way, i.e. discarding before shuffling/selecting, may lead to some weird infinite combos, like Anjika + War Paint.
Do you just mean that she could discard War Paint from her hand to put War Paint into her hand? I don't see how that causes any problems. Lots of games include legal actions with no net effect, and people typically don't care.

No, she could discard War Paint from an item, put it in her hand, then with the right resources, craft it again onto the item for free, then discard it and take it into hand, thus boosting the durability to max for free.

If the War Paint is set aside while choosing the card from the discard, this infinite durability boost loop is broken.
(Although if there were 2 item ideas with those 2 keywords, you could redo the loop with both)
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Jeremy Lennert
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abredon wrote:
No, she could discard War Paint from an item, put it in her hand, then with the right resources, craft it again onto the item for free, then discard it and take it into hand, thus boosting the durability to max for free.

If the War Paint is set aside while choosing the card from the discard, this infinite durability boost loop is broken.
(Although if there were 2 item ideas with those 2 keywords, you could redo the loop with both)
Ah, clever.

As it happens, there is also an advanced skill item idea with those keywords (Spike Trap).

In fact, the second card doesn't need to be an item. You could craft the War Paint, discard it for any card with both stealth and aggressiveness, and then discard that card (from hand) to get the War Paint back, then craft the War Paint again. However, the only other skill cards with that combination of keywords appear to be character-specific, which means Anjika can't put them in her hand.

So the timing of of the discard does significantly affect how easy it is to do this trick, even if it doesn't change whether it is possible at all.
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John Gjertsen
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abredon wrote:
Antistone wrote:
karelpepiku wrote:
The other way, i.e. discarding before shuffling/selecting, may lead to some weird infinite combos, like Anjika + War Paint.
Do you just mean that she could discard War Paint from her hand to put War Paint into her hand? I don't see how that causes any problems. Lots of games include legal actions with no net effect, and people typically don't care.

No, she could discard War Paint from an item, put it in her hand, then with the right resources, craft it again onto the item for free, then discard it and take it into hand, thus boosting the durability to max for free.

If the War Paint is set aside while choosing the card from the discard, this infinite durability boost loop is broken.
(Although if there were 2 item ideas with those 2 keywords, you could redo the loop with both)

The rules specifically forbid a combined item from being deconstructed apart from specific instructions on the item card:

"It is not allowed to deconstruct an item voluntarily by just discarding one card from an item that is made up of multiple cards, unless it is part of the effect of the Item card "

Anjika's character card is not an exception to this rule.
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Jack Spirio
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gjertsen wrote:
abredon wrote:
Antistone wrote:
karelpepiku wrote:
The other way, i.e. discarding before shuffling/selecting, may lead to some weird infinite combos, like Anjika + War Paint.
Do you just mean that she could discard War Paint from her hand to put War Paint into her hand? I don't see how that causes any problems. Lots of games include legal actions with no net effect, and people typically don't care.

No, she could discard War Paint from an item, put it in her hand, then with the right resources, craft it again onto the item for free, then discard it and take it into hand, thus boosting the durability to max for free.

If the War Paint is set aside while choosing the card from the discard, this infinite durability boost loop is broken.
(Although if there were 2 item ideas with those 2 keywords, you could redo the loop with both)

The rules specifically forbid a combined item from being deconstructed apart from specific instructions on the item card:

"It is not allowed to deconstruct an item voluntarily by just discarding one card from an item that is made up of multiple cards, unless it is part of the effect of the Item card "

Anjika's character card is not an exception to this rule.
yes it is
she (like most other chars) allow to discard a card from hand or inventory, so in that case you can discard one of the cards of an item and thus deconstruct it
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Rich P
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gjertsen wrote:
The rules specifically forbid a combined item from being deconstructed apart from specific instructions on the item card:

"It is not allowed to deconstruct an item voluntarily by just discarding one card from an item that is made up of multiple cards, unless it is part of the effect of the Item card "

Anjika's character card is not an exception to this rule.

Unfortunately, it sounds like you've been applying this rule too strictly. You can discard one card from an item stack if another card permits it. Most characters have an ability that allows it. For example, Dmitri can discard Aggressiveness cards from hand or inventory to ignore damage. You can ditch Aggressiveness cards from the middle of an item stack to do this if you like.

Sometimes events that seem bad, forcing you to discard cards from hand/inventory, can actually free up space in the stack to top up the item's durability.

Now you know, even more opportunities will be open to you!
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Yeah, the rule that specifically allows you to remove individual cards for "Discard this" effects is officially meant to also apply to "discard cards with keyword x" effects.

The key thing is the discard ability must specifically refer to discarding cards from your inventory, not discarding items (which would be whole stacks, but that instruction is rare to non-existent).
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Jack Spirio
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There are cases, I just had one last game.
Wasn’t that bad, as I had a stack with just one card in it, which I didn’t needed that much.
 
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Stephan Beal
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woodnoggin wrote:
Unfortunately, it sounds like you've been applying this rule too strictly. You can discard one card from an item stack if another card permits it. Most characters have an ability that allows it. For example, Dmitri can discard Aggressiveness cards from hand or inventory to ignore damage. You can ditch Aggressiveness cards from the middle of an item stack to do this if you like.

To add one pedantic detail to that:

i unfortunately don't have a link to the citation, but the designer confirmed that if the top-most card of an Inventory stack is discard via such an effect, the durability die simply moves to the next card in the stack.
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