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Twilight Struggle» Forums » Variants

Subject: Quagmire/Bear Trap revision rss

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Ben Kyo
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Osaka
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Forward 1, Forward 2, Forward 3... siege attack 5?
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Paul Harding wrote:
I would also consider giving players the option to 'lose' the war and withdraw instead of rolling the dice. The penalty would probably be quite harsh to represent this national humiliation so most players would usually roll the dice anyway.
This is my favourite suggestion so far, although I'm still in the camp of it's fine as is.
 
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C Jen
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Both good ideas: either set the difficulty based on the VP difference, or allow a heavy forfeit to escape after a set time.

I'll faff around with Adobe and see what I can make for my own modded copy of the game.
 
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Ziemowit Pazderski
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It should be fairly easy to institute a change like this in Vassal TS.
And naturally no problem at all in ACTS :-)
Tabletop maybe as well?
 
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foksieloy
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Mind you, I am a casual player, but for me the swinginess of TS is what makes it so tense. You might be ahead everywhere, and enemy might be on the brink of destruction, but you can't relax. You doubt your every move.
Because a single card could turn everything on its head.

Honestly, the same problem you have with Q/BT is what I have with space race. After a while it just gets frustrating to fail.
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C Jen
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I agree on the Space Race frustration. I'd be interested in a modded game that addresses multiple issues, not just QM/BT.

But QM/BT is the best example of "one card breaks the game if you're unlucky" mechanic that shows to me how arbitrary the game can be. It's not to my taste, personally, although I'm fine if others like it.
 
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Barry Miller
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foksieloy wrote:
Honestly, the same problem you have with Q/BT is what I have with space race. After a while it just gets frustrating to fail.
YassWaddah wrote:
I agree on the Space Race frustration.
Keep in mind that every step of the real life space race was a crap shoot. Progress was never guaranteed, and many times would fail spectacularly. I think that's what the die rolls for the Space Race represent.

How would you guys suggest doing it differently?


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C Jen
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I think I've posted these Space Race suggestions before, so apologies for any repeats:

+1 if you've tried and failed on this space before.

+1 if you burn a friendly or neutral card on SR.

I'm also a fan of the idea of allowing intentional failure on any given SR roll.
 
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Barry Miller
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YassWaddah wrote:
I think I've posted these Space Race suggestions before, so apologies for any repeats:

+1 if you've tried and failed on this space before.

+1 if you burn a friendly or neutral card on SR.

I'm also a fan of the idea of allowing intentional failure on any given SR roll.
I actually like those suggestions, except for the very last sentence... am not grasping the thematic sense for that idea.

 
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C Jen
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It represents willfully borking the space race by infighting and political inefficiency. (Thematically speaking.)

Strategically speaking, it lets a player choose to hang out at the 2-OP squares indefinitely, if it suits them to do so.

Game design wise, it was one of the alternative options published in the game manual where the designers described how they seriously considered it for inclusion but ultimately excluded it, though some players might find it worthwhile.
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Barry Miller
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YassWaddah wrote:
It represents willfully borking the space race by infighting and political inefficiency. (Thematically speaking.)

Strategically speaking, it lets a player choose to hang out at the 2-OP squares indefinitely, if it suits them to do so.

Game design wise, it was one of the alternative options published in the game manual where the designers described how they seriously considered it for inclusion but ultimately excluded it, though some players might find it worthwhile.
Or IOW, making the dice roll optional.
 
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C Jen
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Sure, that's the same outcome, I believe.
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Sampo
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I recently started playing (have about 50 games finished on playdek now) and Q/BT have far and away been my least-favorite part of the game. I've already had multiple times where I lost entire turns (my opponents have yet to fail more than 2 rolls), and at least 5 games that were entirely decided by good vs bad luck on Q/BT (including times where we both headline it, but they escape immediately and I fail 3+ times). A single pair of cards shouldn't determine the outcome of 10% of games.

What if it was changed so that you subtracted 1 from your roll of every op in excess of 2 on the card you discard? So if you toss a 3 you have a 5/6 chance to escape, and if you toss a 4 you're guaranteed to get out (but you've paid the price of losing a 4op card)?
 
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Brad Keusch
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Benkyo wrote:
Ziemowit wrote:
I guess most people weren't recently traumatized by a Bear streak, so they don't see the reason to change the original card.
I recently lost a game after being stuck in Bear Trap for 9 AR (7 failed rolls).

The thing is, I'd pretty much already lost the game anyway. By Turn 7 (when I lost), I had played neutral cards worth a total of only 8 OPs, to my opponents' 38. No Decol, no DeStal, Purged twice, Turn 4 Grain Sales headline hit WWBY. Even without a streak of terrible dice rolls, the game was all but over.

Now, the main reason the game remained tense for me until the Bear Trap debacle was that I knew there was always the chance, no matter how slim, that something ridiculously swingy would go my way. Obviously, that didn't happen, but it could have. That's one reason why I like the way it is.

All that said, my opponent was so happy to win (bumped up to 1600 rating), and I was quite entertained by the whole thing (despite being knocked down to 1950 rating), so it seems all good to me.
i lost a game in which i had my opponent in a quagmire for 5 ar! but i had nothing but 1 op and score cards to play in the interim (i also defcon suicided in round 10 at -19 but let's not talk about that)
 
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Ivan J
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Thanks for posting. It's great to have a very strong player contributing.

As a new player to TS. I'd happily remove both of the cards. Doing so doesn't affect the balance of the game at all. The designers could easily have done this when they released the optional cards. In fact it would've been closer to the original number of cards in the deck.
Maybe start a 'new oprtional cards' variant!
 
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Ben Kyo
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Forward 1, Forward 2, Forward 3... siege attack 5?
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In the optional cards, Our Man in Tehran was added so that more cards might get cycled, to offset the increase in card count.
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C Jen
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sirivanhoe2 wrote:
As a new player to TS. I'd happily remove both of the cards. Doing so doesn't affect the balance of the game at all.

Just to piggyback off this point (without any commentary on any other topic you raised) - Quagmire now has a minor secondary effect, which is that it cancels NORAD (an optional card).

This is not listed on Quagmire, but it is listed on NORAD.

The effect is somewhat variable. I've seen NORAD get triggered early and then make a lasting contribution to US map position for the rest of the game. I've also seen NORAD never get triggered, or if it is, Canada is never controlled by the US.

One other issue is whether Quagmire prevents NORAD or not. Some cards have "Cancels/Prevents" so based on that, a card like NORAD that merely says "Cancels" would imply that no prevention is at work. But I seem to recall reading some FAQ somewhere where the creators of the game confirmed that "Cancels" should also proactively have the effect of "Prevents".
 
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