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Subject: Advance skill: resourceful, both resources available? rss

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Jeremy Lennert
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therealbuserian wrote:
nosdok wrote:

Here it is this topic discussed in the official forum:

https://the7thcontinent.seriouspoulp.com/en/forum/topic/796/...

More usefully, the official answer is:

Quote:
Anywhere you see a bamboo symbol, you can see a wood instead.
Anywhere you see a wood symbol, you can see a bamboo instead.
You can mix symbols as you want.

Cheers,
Graham
This answer does not look to me like it was intended to address the issue of "can you use both at once" one way or the other. It's just answering the normal base-level "what does this card even do?" question.

You could possibly read it as answering the "both" question either way: "instead" could be meant to indicate that you can't use both, while "mix" could be meant to indicate that you can. But if that question wasn't clearly framed in the writer's mind (and I see no evidence that it was), then trying to read any answer into this quote is probably folly.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I agree the quote on its own is ambiguous. However, I do find it difficult to determine what was meant by the 'mix' part. However, let's apply some common sense and theme that aligns with the general principles of life on the Continent...

When you use a resource on the card, that resource is not used up. You can craft many things at that location that each need that resource, so there is effectively an infinite supply.

Thus, if you are resourceful enough as to be able to construct wooden things from bamboo and vice versa, why would you not be able to use some of this infinite supply as wood and some more of it as bamboo? It makes absolutely no sense that you would be limited to using the resource as one material or the other.

Even mechanically, you can consider the icon being wood, getting the bonus drop from it, then converting it to bamboo, getting the bonus drop from that and then completing your craft action, thus using both.

None of these arguments is good enough on their own to really make up a mind either way. However, putting everything together, from the 'mix' comment, and the theme, I think it is safe to assume that you can indeed use both icons if either one was already available to you.
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Jeremy Lennert
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I think your thematic and mechanical arguments are reasonable, and that's how I've played it.

I don't think the "mix" comment should be taken as support, though. It could simply be a rephrased summary of the card's effect ("the <=> notation means you can mix up those symbols") or mean you don't have to make the same choice every time ("if you encounter a series of symbols over the course of the game, you can choose a mixture of effects for them, rather than e.g. treating ALL wood as bamboo").

Sounds to me like you may be falling victim to confirmation bias; you drew a conclusion based on an analysis of the game, so now you're inclined to interpret new evidence as supporting your prior conclusion, when in reality the new evidence is so poor it should really just be discarded.

I'd love it if all designers were super careful in wording their answers to all rules questions so that they could be relied upon to be technically correct on subjects other than the question being asked, but in my experience this is not a good assumption to make.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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This isn't confirmation bias. This is applying reasoning into all the evidence we have and trying to determine a solution as there is no firm argument for either side here.

The official response can be interpreted either way. Yes, the 'instead's on their own would be firm, but the 'mix' comment undoes that.

Mechanically, you can support either view as I show above as well. We don't know whether we are allowed to apply the conversion after using the original icon, but we don't know that we are not allowed to do this either. The icon is never explained in the rules and we don't know if it means we can only choose one.

Thematically, I think we can only come up with one argument, though. Can you come up with any thematic justification of only being able to use the resource icon for one thing or the other? And let's say you did happen to find a location with two sources of wood (one on the terrain and another in your inventory perhaps). Would your character suddenly exclaim "Oh yay, I can finally build this item much more easily now that I have two branches from different places rather than them all coming from this same tree. Now, which one will I use as bamboo..."

Those are the three sources we can use to make assumptions about the correct rules in order of importance:

1: Official rulings
2: Rules-based arguments
3: Thematic reasoning

In this case, we do not have a definitive example from 1 and the rules do not address the situation so 2 is also out. The only thing we have left while we wait for an official response is 3 and that does have a very conclusive answer in my opinion.
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Aaron Bredon
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Clipper wrote:
This isn't confirmation bias. This is applying reasoning into all the evidence we have and trying to determine a solution as there is no firm argument for either side here.

The official response can be interpreted either way. Yes, the 'instead's on their own would be firm, but the 'mix' comment undoes that.

Mechanically, you can support either view as I show above as well. We don't know whether we are allowed to apply the conversion after using the original icon, but we don't know that we are not allowed to do this either. The icon is never explained in the rules and we don't know if it means we can only choose one.

Thematically, I think we can only come up with one argument, though. Can you come up with any thematic justification of only being able to use the resource icon for one thing or the other? And let's say you did happen to find a location with two sources of wood (one on the terrain and another in your inventory perhaps). Would your character suddenly exclaim "Oh yay, I can finally build this item much more easily now that I have two branches from different places rather than them all coming from this same tree. Now, which one will I use as bamboo..."

Those are the three sources we can use to make assumptions about the correct rules in order of importance:

1: Official rulings
2: Rules-based arguments
3: Thematic reasoning

In this case, we do not have a definitive example from 1 and the rules do not address the situation so 2 is also out. The only thing we have left while we wait for an official response is 3 and that does have a very conclusive answer in my opinion.

Thematically?
How about this - there are a number of one use resource providing items. Can you use a single-use resource as 2 different resources? How?
 
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Jack Spirio
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abredon wrote:
Clipper wrote:
This isn't confirmation bias. This is applying reasoning into all the evidence we have and trying to determine a solution as there is no firm argument for either side here.

The official response can be interpreted either way. Yes, the 'instead's on their own would be firm, but the 'mix' comment undoes that.

Mechanically, you can support either view as I show above as well. We don't know whether we are allowed to apply the conversion after using the original icon, but we don't know that we are not allowed to do this either. The icon is never explained in the rules and we don't know if it means we can only choose one.

Thematically, I think we can only come up with one argument, though. Can you come up with any thematic justification of only being able to use the resource icon for one thing or the other? And let's say you did happen to find a location with two sources of wood (one on the terrain and another in your inventory perhaps). Would your character suddenly exclaim "Oh yay, I can finally build this item much more easily now that I have two branches from different places rather than them all coming from this same tree. Now, which one will I use as bamboo..."

Those are the three sources we can use to make assumptions about the correct rules in order of importance:

1: Official rulings
2: Rules-based arguments
3: Thematic reasoning

In this case, we do not have a definitive example from 1 and the rules do not address the situation so 2 is also out. The only thing we have left while we wait for an official response is 3 and that does have a very conclusive answer in my opinion.

Thematically?
How about this - there are a number of one use resource providing items. Can you use a single-use resource as 2 different resources? How?
why should they be one use?
There is no limit for them
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Robin Zigmond
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I don't know why you see the resources as 1-use. After all, you can use the same resource on the same terrain to help build several items in a row.

Also thematically - if I'm in a forest with wood available, or a jungle with leaves and bamboo, etc, I assume that means I have plentiful supplies of that material while I'm there (as evidenced by what I said above). So if I'm "resourceful" enough to be able to use wood for parts that others could only build out of bamboo, then why on Earth can't I build a wood-and-bamboo item when I've got lots of wood around?
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Yep, those are my points exactly. There’s enough resources to build hundreds of items each needing one unit of the resource, so why isn’t there enough to use two units of the resource on one item? That makes zero sense thematically.
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Aaron Bredon
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Jack Spirio wrote:
abredon wrote:
Clipper wrote:
This isn't confirmation bias. This is applying reasoning into all the evidence we have and trying to determine a solution as there is no firm argument for either side here.

The official response can be interpreted either way. Yes, the 'instead's on their own would be firm, but the 'mix' comment undoes that.

Mechanically, you can support either view as I show above as well. We don't know whether we are allowed to apply the conversion after using the original icon, but we don't know that we are not allowed to do this either. The icon is never explained in the rules and we don't know if it means we can only choose one.

Thematically, I think we can only come up with one argument, though. Can you come up with any thematic justification of only being able to use the resource icon for one thing or the other? And let's say you did happen to find a location with two sources of wood (one on the terrain and another in your inventory perhaps). Would your character suddenly exclaim "Oh yay, I can finally build this item much more easily now that I have two branches from different places rather than them all coming from this same tree. Now, which one will I use as bamboo..."

Those are the three sources we can use to make assumptions about the correct rules in order of importance:

1: Official rulings
2: Rules-based arguments
3: Thematic reasoning

In this case, we do not have a definitive example from 1 and the rules do not address the situation so 2 is also out. The only thing we have left while we wait for an official response is 3 and that does have a very conclusive answer in my opinion.

Thematically?
How about this - there are a number of one use resource providing items. Can you use a single-use resource as 2 different resources? How?
why should they be one use?
There is no limit for them

"Discard this card" in the box that provides the resource. It is a single use resource. There are several cards like this.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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abredon wrote:
"Discard this card" in the box that provides the resource. It is a single use resources terrain not having the icon. There are several cards like this.
Ah, so you are discussing the concept of items providing a single instance of the resource. That is indeed an interesting prospect and throws a minor spanner into the thematic argument. Perhaps such cards should indeed be limited to a single resource.
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Jack Spirio
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Clipper wrote:
abredon wrote:
"Discard this card" in the box that provides the resource. It is a single use resources terrain not having the icon. There are several cards like this.
Ah, so you are discussing the concept of items providing a single instance of the resource. That is indeed an interesting prospect and throws a minor spanner into the thematic argument. Perhaps such cards should indeed be limited to a single resource.
yes, but here you could argue that you need to discard them giftet the first use and then can’t use it for more.
But all other resource sources are unlimited
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Udo Borries
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Clipper wrote:
abredon wrote:
"Discard this card" in the box that provides the resource. It is a single use resources terrain not having the icon. There are several cards like this.
Ah, so you are discussing the concept of items providing a single instance of the resource. That is indeed an interesting prospect and throws a minor spanner into the thematic argument. Perhaps such cards should indeed be limited to a single resource.

On the other hand you can use one card with a single use of a resource no matter how much of that resource you need. If you have, say, a small piece of cord which provides you with one use of the liana resource, you can use it to completely build a hammock with cost of four cards and liana (-4) for free (everything here just made up for giving an example, i don't actually know if such items exist)

I'd say the card in question just gives you the skill to use bamboo and wood alike, so any of those resources counts as both.
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Andrew DiGregorio
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absolutely.

Its saying that you "Can" convert one resource to another...

not that you "Must".....
 
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Jano
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Unisus wrote:
Clipper wrote:
abredon wrote:
"Discard this card" in the box that provides the resource. It is a single use resources terrain not having the icon. There are several cards like this.
Ah, so you are discussing the concept of items providing a single instance of the resource. That is indeed an interesting prospect and throws a minor spanner into the thematic argument. Perhaps such cards should indeed be limited to a single resource.

On the other hand you can use one card with a single use of a resource no matter how much of that resource you need. If you have, say, a small piece of cord which provides you with one use of the liana resource, you can use it to completely build a hammock with cost of four cards and liana (-4) for free (everything here just made up for giving an example, i don't actually know if such items exist)

I'd say the card in question just gives you the skill to use bamboo and wood alike, so any of those resources counts as both.

I think that somehow we all agree on this but it is not so clear directly from reading the rules literally. Maybe I should ask on the official forums. It feels like we are right.
 
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Angela Schäfer
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I think that's not a matter of converting one resource into another. It's a Skill-Card.
Say, you are standing on a card which provides the wood resource and you want to craft the blow pipe. If you use "Resourceful", you still have only the wood resource. But you now have the skill to craft the blow pipe out of wood.
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