Recommend
10 
 Thumb up
 Hide
186 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [8] | 

Q.E.» Forums » Strategy

Subject: What's the counter play to hyper inflation rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Mark Jackson
United States
Greensboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
What is the sound of one card shuffling?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My group has run into an issue with this game. The first player to go hard into hyper inflation won the first auction of the game (starting bid: 1) with a bid of 100 million, and then raised his bids by a factor of 10 each auction. He stopped once someone outbid him, by which time he had won the first six tiles. The person who outbid him had to spend more than all of his previous bids combined to win a single tile, and at that point assuming the hyper inflation player doesn't grossly screw up he was handily won the game by getting stuff for exponentially less than everyone else. Subsequent games have gone similarly, but once everyone is in on it it just becomes who arbitrarily writes big enough numbers/top decks the best tiles on the way up the ramp. The trouble is I don't see a way to compete against this that's not just doing the same thing and hoping you get lucky, and I'm kinda worried that we broke the game. So what's the counter play BGG?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Byron S
United States
Ventura
California
flag msg tools
I don't remember what I ate last night
badge
but I can spout off obscure rules to all sorts of games like nobody's business!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Let them win everything and lose, while the others all rejoice in shared victory!
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
gavin birnbaum
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
Winning 4 good tiles throughout the game is a reasonable strategy.
Winning the first 4 tiles at any price regardless of their value is a transparent strategy that the other players can ignore as this player has eliminated themselves from winning.
If they continue to do this in every game they play they will never win and none of the other players will experience the real game.
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Gabbert
United States
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If there’s someone in your group who just intentionally knocks over the tower whenever you play Jenga, it’s not the game that’s flawed.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Jackson
United States
Greensboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
What is the sound of one card shuffling?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
runtsta wrote:
Let them win everything and lose, while the others all rejoice in shared victory!

At this point you just don't play the game though.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Jackson
United States
Greensboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
What is the sound of one card shuffling?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
hanwellian wrote:
Winning 4 good tiles throughout the game is a reasonable strategy.
Winning the first 4 tiles at any price regardless of their value is a transparent strategy that the other players can ignore as this player has eliminated themselves from winning.
If they continue to do this in every game they play they will never win and none of the other players will experience the real game.

If they never take their foot off the gas then they win every tile though. The first person to do this won 69-25-etc. When it's everyone getting crazy with it then then the scores are closer, but the winner is pretty arbitrary.

What I need there to be is a way to break the ramp up, and personally I'm not seeing one at the moment.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin G
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
badge
Don't fall in love with me yet, we only recently met
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ah_Pook wrote:
hanwellian wrote:
Winning 4 good tiles throughout the game is a reasonable strategy.
Winning the first 4 tiles at any price regardless of their value is a transparent strategy that the other players can ignore as this player has eliminated themselves from winning.
If they continue to do this in every game they play they will never win and none of the other players will experience the real game.

If they never take their foot off the gas then they win every tile though.

And guarantee they lose. That doesn't sound much like a broken strategy to me.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Jackson
United States
Greensboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
What is the sound of one card shuffling?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
qwertymartin wrote:
Ah_Pook wrote:
hanwellian wrote:
Winning 4 good tiles throughout the game is a reasonable strategy.
Winning the first 4 tiles at any price regardless of their value is a transparent strategy that the other players can ignore as this player has eliminated themselves from winning.
If they continue to do this in every game they play they will never win and none of the other players will experience the real game.

If they never take their foot off the gas then they win every tile though.

And guarantee they lose. That doesn't sound much like a broken strategy to me.

"Everyone agree to never win a tile and share victory" is, again, just saying don't play QE any more. And if that's the answer that's fine. But what were looking for here is a counter play that isn't "well let's never play this again".
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin G
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
badge
Don't fall in love with me yet, we only recently met
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ah_Pook wrote:
qwertymartin wrote:
Ah_Pook wrote:
hanwellian wrote:
Winning 4 good tiles throughout the game is a reasonable strategy.
Winning the first 4 tiles at any price regardless of their value is a transparent strategy that the other players can ignore as this player has eliminated themselves from winning.
If they continue to do this in every game they play they will never win and none of the other players will experience the real game.

If they never take their foot off the gas then they win every tile though.

And guarantee they lose. That doesn't sound much like a broken strategy to me.

"Everyone agree to never win a tile and share victory" is, again, just saying don't play QE any more. And if that's the answer that's fine. But what were looking for here is a counter play that isn't "well let's never play this again".

If the strategy you described won every time, it would need a counter or the game would be broken. If, as is the case, it loses every time, the counter is to stop playing that dumb strategy.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Jackson
United States
Greensboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
What is the sound of one card shuffling?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
qwertymartin wrote:
Ah_Pook wrote:
qwertymartin wrote:
Ah_Pook wrote:
hanwellian wrote:
Winning 4 good tiles throughout the game is a reasonable strategy.
Winning the first 4 tiles at any price regardless of their value is a transparent strategy that the other players can ignore as this player has eliminated themselves from winning.
If they continue to do this in every game they play they will never win and none of the other players will experience the real game.

If they never take their foot off the gas then they win every tile though.

And guarantee they lose. That doesn't sound much like a broken strategy to me.

"Everyone agree to never win a tile and share victory" is, again, just saying don't play QE any more. And if that's the answer that's fine. But what were looking for here is a counter play that isn't "well let's never play this again".

If the strategy you described won every time, it would need a counter or the game would be broken. If, as is the case, it loses every time, the counter is to stop playing that dumb strategy.

The first person to do this in my group won 69-25-etc in a 5p game, because we blinked but we blinked way too late to effectively score points. The only way to effectively counter this that we have found is to 1) engage in it yourself immediately from the jump, or 2) don't play QE (ie collude to never win a single tile). I'm hoping for the third option here.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin G
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
badge
Don't fall in love with me yet, we only recently met
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ah_Pook wrote:
The first person to do this in my group won 69-25-etc in a 5p game, because we blinked but we blinked way too late to effectively score points. The only way to effectively counter this that we have found is to 1) engage in it yourself immediately from the jump, or 2) don't play QE (ie collude to never win a single tile). I'm hoping for the third option here.
Say I'm planning to engage in this strategy. But now I know that if I do, the other players will collude to never win a single tile and I will lose. My options are:

a) Do it anyway and ensure I lose, everyone has a shitty time and we never play QE again.

b) Don't do it.

I'm really not seeing the problem.
14 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Jackson
United States
Greensboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
What is the sound of one card shuffling?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
qwertymartin wrote:
Ah_Pook wrote:
The first person to do this in my group won 69-25-etc in a 5p game, because we blinked but we blinked way too late to effectively score points. The only way to effectively counter this that we have found is to 1) engage in it yourself immediately from the jump, or 2) don't play QE (ie collude to never win a single tile). I'm hoping for the third option here.
Say I'm planning to engage in this strategy. But now I know that if I do, the other players will collude to never win a single tile and I will lose. My options are:

a) Do it anyway and ensure I lose, everyone has a shitty time and we never play QE again.

b) Don't do it.

I'm really not seeing the problem.

Having to agree not to inflate numbers tooo much kinda seems antithetical to the design of the game, so I'm hoping there's a third option here. As it stands, we've all had a really great time but I think the end result is we never play QE again. Hence the thread.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
qwertymartin wrote:
Ah_Pook wrote:
The first person to do this in my group won 69-25-etc in a 5p game, because we blinked but we blinked way too late to effectively score points. The only way to effectively counter this that we have found is to 1) engage in it yourself immediately from the jump, or 2) don't play QE (ie collude to never win a single tile). I'm hoping for the third option here.
Say I'm planning to engage in this strategy. But now I know that if I do, the other players will collude to never win a single tile and I will lose. My options are:

a) Do it anyway and ensure I lose, everyone has a shitty time and we never play QE again.

b) Don't do it.

I'm really not seeing the problem.

This. It’s not so much the game which is broken, but the way your opponent is playing. If your opponent continues to play that way, they’re simply ruining the experience for the rest of the players.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chun Ping
Singapore
Portland
OREGON
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
the third way is that you can play to win by exploiting his bidding tendency.

if you play again, you can out bid him at the 2nd tile by going 200 million.

on the 3rd tile, you let him win using his 10 fold strategy. he would have spent 1 billion by now.

for the rest of the game, as long as this player is winning the tiles, you bid low.

at the end game, he will have 6 tiles, you will have 1. the rest of the players none.

he spent the most and lost.

you have the only tile and won.

once you do that, other players will catch on and the game works normally.
14 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Gabbert
United States
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ah_Pook wrote:
qwertymartin wrote:
Ah_Pook wrote:
hanwellian wrote:
Winning 4 good tiles throughout the game is a reasonable strategy.
Winning the first 4 tiles at any price regardless of their value is a transparent strategy that the other players can ignore as this player has eliminated themselves from winning.
If they continue to do this in every game they play they will never win and none of the other players will experience the real game.

If they never take their foot off the gas then they win every tile though.

And guarantee they lose. That doesn't sound much like a broken strategy to me.

"Everyone agree to never win a tile and share victory" is, again, just saying don't play QE any more. And if that's the answer that's fine. But what were looking for here is a counter play that isn't "well let's never play this again".

No, it’s saying don’t play QE with someone who intentionally loses every game.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Jackson
United States
Greensboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
What is the sound of one card shuffling?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mgabbert wrote:
Ah_Pook wrote:
qwertymartin wrote:
Ah_Pook wrote:
hanwellian wrote:
Winning 4 good tiles throughout the game is a reasonable strategy.
Winning the first 4 tiles at any price regardless of their value is a transparent strategy that the other players can ignore as this player has eliminated themselves from winning.
If they continue to do this in every game they play they will never win and none of the other players will experience the real game.

If they never take their foot off the gas then they win every tile though.

And guarantee they lose. That doesn't sound much like a broken strategy to me.

"Everyone agree to never win a tile and share victory" is, again, just saying don't play QE any more. And if that's the answer that's fine. But what were looking for here is a counter play that isn't "well let's never play this again".

No, it’s saying don’t play QE with someone who intentionally loses every game.

he didnt lose the first game this happened in, and he hasnt lost any subsequent game where we have all to some degree or another participated in this. the thrust of the conversation is how to break this meta without just not playing the game. if you have something of value to contribute to that conversation im all ears.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin G
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
badge
Don't fall in love with me yet, we only recently met
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ah_Pook wrote:

he didnt lose the first game this happened in, and he hasnt lost any subsequent game where we have all to some degree or another participated in this. the thrust of the conversation is how to break this meta without just not playing the game. if you have something of value to contribute to that conversation im all ears.

Nevertheless, he will lose *every* game where none of you participate in it. If that doesn't break him out of his meta, I'm not sure what will...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Jackson
United States
Greensboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
What is the sound of one card shuffling?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
cpf86 wrote:
the third way is that you can play to win by exploiting his bidding tendency.

if you play again, you can out bid him at the 2nd tile by going 200 million.

on the 3rd tile, you let him win using his 10 fold strategy. he would have spent 1 billion by now.

for the rest of the game, as long as this player is winning the tiles, you bid low.

at the end game, he will have 6 tiles, you will have 1. the rest of the players none.

he spent the most and lost.

you have the only tile and won.

once you do that, other players will catch on and the game works normally.

this assumes that you know the correct amount to bid on the second tile, and also that all other players decide to not play the game. presumably they want to score more than 13 points...

example game:

first auction: starting bid 100, player 3 wins with a bid of 1 billion.
second auction: starting bid 10 billion (player 2 looked at the winning bid), player three wins with a bid of 100 billion
third auction: starting bid 1 trillion, player 2 wins with a bid of 5 trillion

now what?


edit: also, side note, 1 tiles loses to not spending any money (7 points for spending the least, 6 points for 3 zero bids) so you would have to win more than 1 tile. or the one you win has to match your country or hidden company type or preferably both (which points back to the winner being whoever arbitrarily top decked the best tiles on the way up the ramp).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Gabbert
United States
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
qwertymartin wrote:
Ah_Pook wrote:

he didnt lose the first game this happened in, and he hasnt lost any subsequent game where we have all to some degree or another participated in this. the thrust of the conversation is how to break this meta without just not playing the game. if you have something of value to contribute to that conversation im all ears.

Nevertheless, he will lose *every* game where none of you participate in it. If that doesn't break him out of his meta, I'm not sure what will...

Exactly. If someone grabs the first six companies with ever increasing bids, they have grabbed the loss. Anyone foolish enough to try to outbid them is grabbing the loss away from them. That’s dumb, so don’t do that.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Jackson
United States
Greensboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
What is the sound of one card shuffling?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
i understand that your personal answer is "the only winning move is not to play". it doesnt suddenly become a useful answer to me the fifth time you say it. personally id be curious for you to give this a try in your next game and report back. maybe everyone you play with will stare you down and not take the bait. that hasnt been my personal experience, because not playing the game isnt fun. hence the thread where im soliciting alternate theories on how to counter play
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
C.K. Au
Malaysia
Kuala Lumpur
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Let's take a step back and deep dive into the sample game. Let's assume ALL players are playing to win, and P3 thinks he has THAT strategy.

Auction1: starting bid 100, player 3 wins with a bid of 1 billion.

Wooo… P1 writes winning bid (hidden) on back of tile with a shock on his face. Everyone clap clap well done P3.

second auction: starting bid 10 billion

Firstly why would P2 start the 2nd auction with 10 billion? Only P1 has the info that P3 won with 1b in the 1st bid. At best if P2 bidded say 200, he only knew P3 spent >200 to win that bid. surely he won't know P3 paid 1b for it??

If P2 is "playing to win", he won't open Auction2 with 10b. EVEN if P2 somehow can read P3's mind and knew he spent 1b to win Aucton1, still why would P2 open the 2nd bid with 10b?? This is NOT playing to win.

Perhaps you want to explain some of the thinking behind the 10b opening by P2?

so okay let's suppose P2 opened with 200 for Auction2. P3 won it with 100b.

Wooo... P2 writes 100b on the back tile with EVEN bigger shock on his face. Everyone claps claps.

Now.. it's P3 to open the 3rd auction. Say he follows the example and opens 1 trillion.

Everyone just turns in their QE token, scores 2 pts. Thank you very much P3.

Basically at this stage, everyone knew P3 is out of the game. The rest in the rest of the bid will continue to bid as best as they can in order to WIN the game, not lose it. So no one will really bid above 1 trillion coz that's firstly the only open info that's accessible to everyone, and secondly it's frankly a bar that's much too high to go.

So what does P3 do? Bid 10 trillion in the 4th bid? Sure this then means P4 may bid up to 9 trllion to try and win something but will obviously lose out if P3 bid 100 trillion in the next etc etc

But I can't see if anyone except P3 is still trying to play the game to win.. how will anyone bid 100 trillion to desperately win something?? That's poor play isn't it (regardless of what P3 is trying to push us to do)?

So if this repeats ad nauseum until game ends... everyone ties for zero tiles, P3 count his total bid 1,000,000,000,000 trillion or whatver. We congratulate him for losing.

Then we go, "Ok do we want to do this again? Maybe we ask our Top Loser, hey want another game?"

Repeat from Line 1.

Your group just have a unique QE experience. That's all. Savor it.

5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Jackson
United States
Greensboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
What is the sound of one card shuffling?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
the example was specifically in response to a post saying "all you have to do is outbid the high bidder on the second tile", hence player 2 bids high (having used the one time in the game power to look at a winning bid and seen that 1b was the winning bid of the first tile).

if player 2 opens with 200, player 3 wins with 10b. player 3 starts the bidding for tile 3 at 100b. everyone laughs and bids zero. if player 3 never let off the gas they win every tile. your end seems to be pointing to what everyone else is pointing to, which is just nobody outbid the person exponentially raising the bids and tie at 13 points. that answer is analagous to "lets never play QE again". what we're looking for here is a way to break the meta while still playing the game. the way this has played out for my group so far is that people arbitrarily raise the bids by ludicrous amounts in the early auctions, and whoever happens to write down the highest number and top deck the best tiles wins in the end. you can bid low and try to bait out ludicrous bids, but if the high bidders never back down you will never win anything bidding low. and if more than one person engages in this then one of them wins, and whoever doesnt engage automatically loses.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Jackson
United States
Greensboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
What is the sound of one card shuffling?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
an illustrative example

player 1 has openly bid 1 quadrillion dollars for the current tile and has a score of 24
player 2 has bid 500 trillion total and has a score of 12
player 3 has not won any tiles, having failed to arbitrarily add enough zeros
player 4 has bid 50 billion total and has 7 points
player 5 has not won any tiles, having failed to arbitrarily add enough zeros

this is not an uncommon way for these games to roughly play out in my experience so far. lets say there are 5 tiles left to auction. whats the play for anybody here?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin G
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
badge
Don't fall in love with me yet, we only recently met
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
that answer is analagous to "lets never play QE again". what we're looking for here is a way to break the meta while still playing the game.

*sigh*

"My games of chess are really unsatisfying because my opponent always resigns on his third move. How do I counter this?"
13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Jackson
United States
Greensboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
What is the sound of one card shuffling?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
qwertymartin wrote:
Quote:
that answer is analagous to "lets never play QE again". what we're looking for here is a way to break the meta while still playing the game.

*sigh*

"My games of chess are really unsatisfying because my opponent always resigns on his third move. How do I counter this?"

*sigh*

"this guy repeated himself again. how do i counter this?"



i would also be curious to hear your personal experience playing this way, and how your group responds.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [8] |