Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
20 Posts

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Board Game Design » Design Queries and Problems

Subject: Seeking help with the shape of some elements rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Dani Garcia
Spain
Barcelona
Catalunya
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mb
I’m having a problem with the way some pieces are made in my game, and I’m trying to find a solution for it, but I can’t find any that fully works.

Here are some images so you can see how it is right now. During the game, workers can move (A), and once they reach a square with a resource they will be placed on top (B) indicating the resource will now move with the worker. When the worker has finished the movement of the turn, it can be flipped, to show the opposite side (C) (with or without a helmet), so you can see which workers have you already moved this turn based on the helmets (or the lack of them).



The problem: Workers cover the resources when moving them, so it’s very common having to lift the workers to know what are they carrying. It’s an important information, and it’s something that happens constantly when playing, so I’d like to fix it.


Here are some solutions I’ve been thinking, but none fully works:

1- Combining 2 cardboard pieces in a cross shape, so workers are now vertical instead of horizontal. The resource will probably be seen through the cross.

Problems: It might still be difficult to see some of the symbols with the cross on top, and the system to identify the moved workers is lost.

2- Creating an ‘L’ shape with 3 cardboard pieces, so resources are placed on top of it instead of below. I think I like this more, because the vertical part of the ‘L’ shape would still show the color of the worker when carrying pieces, and it seems to fit better the theme, as they are literally carrying them (instead of being on top).

Problems: The system to identify the moved workers is also lost, and I’m not sure if the ‘L’ shape can be unstable or can be accidentally flipped with a light hit.

3- Changing the shape of the resources to a “puzzle” piece, and adding a miniature version of the image on the resource in the extra bulge. This way, the system to identify the workers will still work, and they should never cover the bulge.

Problems: The miniature might be too small to be seen, and the bigger size of the resources might be a problem when moving them on the board, as they would invade adjacent tiles.



Right now I think the best one is 2, but I would then need to find an easy system for players to identify which workers have been moved. Or, to find a completely different solution that handles both problems better, so I’d like to ask you for help, in case you have any ideas that can work.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Evan Hill
United States
The Republic of Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Give the resources different colors. The 4 corners of the resource counter can be seen with the workers on top so a casual glance will tell you what resource is underneath based on the color.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dani Garcia
Spain
Barcelona
Catalunya
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mb
I considered it, but I think I have too many resources to do that. There are 10 different resources that can be carried, so I think some colors would be too close to others, specially for color blind people.

I've already separated them using 2 colors for the borders, red and blue, to differentiate 2 gameplay elements, but still with that, players want to know exactly which ones are workers carrying.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean Hagans
United States
Colorado
flag msg tools
mb
make the workers a rectangle that takes up half the space of a resource tile. Make the resource icon fit in the half of the tile not reserved for a worker. Place a worker on the reserved half of the resource tile. The worker can still be two-sided to allow for hat and no hat sides.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Breckenridge
United States
Richmond
Rhode Island
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Leave the tokens round and square, but reproduce a smaller version of the resource icon in the corners of the tile, like on a playing card.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Van Biesbrouck
Canada
St Catharines
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Gloomhaven tends to run into issues where there are lots of damage and status tokens on creatures. This standee base has extra slots for the smaller status tokens (also holds dice to track damage):

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2734104

I think that standee bases that hold tokens should be more common. Using regular clear standee bases for the workers probably wouldn't obscure the items they are carrying.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dani Garcia
Spain
Barcelona
Catalunya
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mb
Thanks all for your replies!

shagans wrote:
make the workers a rectangle that takes up half the space of a resource tile. Make the resource icon fit in the half of the tile not reserved for a worker. Place a worker on the reserved half of the resource tile. The worker can still be two-sided to allow for hat and no hat sides.

I didn't thought of that. My only worry with that would be the images printed being a bit too small (the squares are about 2cm x side), but it's worth giving it a try.

jbrecken wrote:
Leave the tokens round and square, but reproduce a smaller version of the resource icon in the corners of the tile, like on a playing card.

I thought of that one, but I feared the icons on the sides would be too small to be seen. That's why I was thinking about option 3, which is basically the same, but with that extra space hopefully allowing me to make the symbols a bit bigger.

mlvanbie wrote:
Gloomhaven tends to run into issues where there are lots of damage and status tokens on creatures. This standee base has extra slots for the smaller status tokens (also holds dice to track damage):

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2734104

I think that standee bases that hold tokens should be more common. Using regular clear standee bases for the workers probably wouldn't obscure the items they are carrying.

That's interesting, I'd never seen that kind of standee. The clear standee would work for sure, but I'd like to avoid adding plastic elements to the game if possible, as there's none actually, and I think they would increase the production costs.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ian S
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Avatar
Player counters are clear plastic discs, with sticker attached to show the player character.

Now the player discs are mostly transparent and you can see what is beneath the player disc.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Van Biesbrouck
Canada
St Catharines
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Rather than plastic standee bases you can do everything with cardboard:

https://www.thegamecrafter.com/parts/blank-standee-small

Some pieces like this hold together better than others, but glue or Stik Tak is advisable. Even more of the token will be visible. There's a possible increased cost of machining to cut the cardboard.

I suppose you could make the workers and resource tokens interlock at 90 degree angles to stand up. If they are the size shown (both large) then they won't need to hold together.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G G
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Assuming that you are wedded to cardboard tokens:

* Workers are smaller discs, 80% as wide as the resource.
* Resource squares have a distinct border frame, with specific iconography in the corners

No matter how the worker sits on the resource, there will be enough of the corner showing to clearly identify which one it is.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dani Garcia
Spain
Barcelona
Catalunya
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mb
spanna wrote:
Player counters are clear plastic discs, with sticker attached to show the player character.

Now the player discs are mostly transparent and you can see what is beneath the player disc.

Yes, that would work, but I'd prefer to avoid plastic if possible and solve it using only cardboard.

mlvanbie wrote:
Rather than plastic standee bases you can do everything with cardboard:

https://www.thegamecrafter.com/parts/blank-standee-small

Some pieces like this hold together better than others, but glue or Stik Tak is advisable. Even more of the token will be visible. There's a possible increased cost of machining to cut the cardboard.

I suppose you could make the workers and resource tokens interlock at 90 degree angles to stand up. If they are the size shown (both large) then they won't need to hold together.

Thanks for that link. That's more or less what I tried to draw in '1', but I didn't knew the base could be so small compared to the big face. That could work, but I'd still need to find a system to show which workers have already been moved (some players have problems remembering that). I was thinking on adding some extra token to give to the worker once the movement is done, but that might be to many tokens on a single square.

GrauGeist wrote:
Assuming that you are wedded to cardboard tokens:

* Workers are smaller discs, 80% as wide as the resource.
* Resource squares have a distinct border frame, with specific iconography in the corners

No matter how the worker sits on the resource, there will be enough of the corner showing to clearly identify which one it is.

Yes, that could be a solution, but my only fear is that the iconography in the corners is too small to be seen. That's why I was thinking about option 3. That bulge could be put on a corner to get more space for the symbol, but I'm not sure if that would still be too small (resources are 2cm each side, not too big).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Van Biesbrouck
Canada
St Catharines
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Moved workers can be placed on their sides; stand them up later.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bob Smith
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Could you use a player board with spaces for worker 1, worker 2 etc and place the resource on the player board while carried? Not sure how important it is to know which workers have which resources on the board itself or for other players to see. Not as obvious, but it won’t cover artwork.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Corsaire
United States
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Cut a center slot in the resources to insert the worker. Rotate worker upside down after moving.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G G
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Woodys3d wrote:
GrauGeist wrote:
Assuming that you are wedded to cardboard tokens:

* Workers are smaller discs, 80% as wide as the resource.
* Resource squares have a distinct border frame, with specific iconography in the corners

No matter how the worker sits on the resource, there will be enough of the corner showing to clearly identify which one it is.

Yes, that could be a solution, but my only fear is that the iconography in the corners is too small to be seen. That's why I was thinking about option 3. That bulge could be put on a corner to get more space for the symbol, but I'm not sure if that would still be too small (resources are 2cm each side, not too big).

With proper use of color and pattern, the border frame alone would be sufficient. Add any sort of unique shape in a corner as a secondary identifier.

Also, if you offset the a 16mm round worker on the 20mm square resource over one corner, you would have a 10mm diameter spot in one opposite corner for a fancy icon.

You need to play with what I've suggested here. There are far easier ways to do this without making the thing as complicated as what you've initially proposed.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
B C Z
United States
Reston
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

+--------+
| R /\ |
| / \ |
| / \ |
|/ P \|
|\ /|
| \ / |
| \ / |
| \/ |
+--------+

R : Resource identifier
P : Player token


This can be done by making the player token just slightly smaller than the resource. If you want to go w/ round player markers, that's fine - make the player markers say 1" across, and the squares on which they land 1.5"

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
baboon baboonov
Israel
Haifa
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Maybe different shapes and colors for the resource tokens?

Edit: and have a good player aid
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Petr Marek
Czech Republic
flag msg tools
mb
Lots of nice ideas here, so just another suggestion:
When the resource tile is flipped you remove it from the game and replace it with small resource token similar to which it is (like cubes, diamonds etc..). You can put it on worker tile to take it with.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dani Garcia
Spain
Barcelona
Catalunya
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mb
Thanks a lot for all your comments, this is really helpful!
It looks like I was overcomplicating a bit the solution, so I think I will focus more on tweaking the resources instead of the workers as you are suggesting, and see if I can find enough color/shape combinations that work and that are visible enough for the players.

mlvanbie wrote:
Moved workers can be placed on their sides; stand them up later.

That's really simple, and it would work. If I end up changing the workers I think I will go with that.

Squid89 wrote:
Could you use a player board with spaces for worker 1, worker 2 etc and place the resource on the player board while carried? Not sure how important it is to know which workers have which resources on the board itself or for other players to see. Not as obvious, but it won’t cover artwork.

While that would work for sure, it's critical for all players to know what every worker is carrying as fast as possible, as the game has a strong interaction between players. Sometimes you want to act once you notice somebody is carrying a specific resource, so that could potentially slow down the process.

Corsaire wrote:
Cut a center slot in the resources to insert the worker. Rotate worker upside down after moving.

I didn't thought of that possibility. If workers can be easily inserted and removed from the resource without damaging it (as you would be doing it many times each game), it can also be an interesting solution.

GrauGeist wrote:
Woodys3d wrote:
GrauGeist wrote:
Assuming that you are wedded to cardboard tokens:

* Workers are smaller discs, 80% as wide as the resource.
* Resource squares have a distinct border frame, with specific iconography in the corners

No matter how the worker sits on the resource, there will be enough of the corner showing to clearly identify which one it is.

Yes, that could be a solution, but my only fear is that the iconography in the corners is too small to be seen. That's why I was thinking about option 3. That bulge could be put on a corner to get more space for the symbol, but I'm not sure if that would still be too small (resources are 2cm each side, not too big).

With proper use of color and pattern, the border frame alone would be sufficient. Add any sort of unique shape in a corner as a secondary identifier.

Also, if you offset the a 16mm round worker on the 20mm square resource over one corner, you would have a 10mm diameter spot in one opposite corner for a fancy icon.

You need to play with what I've suggested here. There are far easier ways to do this without making the thing as complicated as what you've initially proposed.

Yes, I think you are right. That's the first thing I will try, and if it's still too small I still have the option to add that bulge, but I would prefer to avoid it if possible.

byronczimmer wrote:

+--------+
| R /\ |
| / \ |
| / \ |
|/ P \|
|\ /|
| \ / |
| \ / |
| \/ |
+--------+

R : Resource identifier
P : Player token


This can be done by making the player token just slightly smaller than the resource. If you want to go w/ round player markers, that's fine - make the player markers say 1" across, and the squares on which they land 1.5"


Yes, right now the resources side lenght is almost the same as the workers diameter. I think I can make the workers a bit smaller to allow for that corner identifier.

baboonov wrote:
Maybe different shapes and colors for the resource tokens?

Edit: and have a good player aid

Unfortunatelly I can't change the overal shape for each resource. As they appear randomly on the board and players grab them when they are face down on the table, a different shape would identify them even being face down. But I can play with the border colors, that's true.

Drakkkan wrote:
Lots of nice ideas here, so just another suggestion:
When the resource tile is flipped you remove it from the game and replace it with small resource token similar to which it is (like cubes, diamonds etc..). You can put it on worker tile to take it with.

That's also an interesting idea, but workers might pick and also drop resources many times during the game, so it could be a bit too much work replacing the resources back and forth. Of course, I could just use the current resources to select where the resources appear, and only use the tokens on the board, but that means adding new tokens and probably materials, that would increase the cost of manufacturing, so I prefer to start trying cheaper solutions first.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dani Garcia
Spain
Barcelona
Catalunya
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mb
After some tests I went with this slight variation of the main idea suggested here. I've added a smaller version of the resource face on the corner, but to make sure it was easy to spot, I changed the shape a bit, adding that circle on the corner so the icon can be bigger and also harder to cover with the workers on top.

I've also added the crossed version of the workers on their back, in order to track which ones have already been used during a turn, just by flipping them once their movement is finished.

Do you think this will work well?

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls