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Subject: WWII COIN Game rss

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Paul Schroeder

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Have any future and/or existing COIN designers played around with a WWII COIN concept?

It seems like there were definitely COIN like situations, in particular for the Germans occupying other countries. It also seems like there would be a good deal of information (maybe too much?) about the counter-insurgency movements to create a COIN game.

It just struck me today and I started looking through wikipedia to see how much actually happened. Initially, I was thinking about the occupation and resistance in France, but the link below led to others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-partisan_operations_in_Wo...

Anyone else have thoughts? COIN is generally a 4 faction game; I'm trying to think of the map scale that would be appropriate for such a game. Like would it include Germany and 3 other major resistance movements in different countries? We're the resistance movements in France and elsewhere actually effective enough to really be a faction?


Thought 1: Later in the war, around DDay. Map is most of Europe.

Factions:
German Player (Mechanics reminiscent of a hybrid of Government in Cuba Libre and Romans in Falling Sky with a terror capability).
Game win: Hold enough territory + Support through terrorizing the populace.

Allies (mechanics maybe reminiscent of Coalition in ADP, maybe start almost completely off map, left side).
Game win: Hold enough territory + resistance to German control.

German Occupation Resistance (representing population already controlled by Germany, but resistance from within). Create enough resistance to German occupation to completely hamper their ranks to let the allies have a much easier time liberating Europe. (This one is a little thematically iffy, I'm wondering if someone has an idea to make it more historically accurate and fit into a game system)

The last faction would either be Russia or a separate resistance group.
Russia: Similar to the allies, but only cares about control and not support. They would have a weaker unit types than the other allies, but a lot more of them. Playtesting would be needed to figure out the correct balance of their win condition against the allies.

Thought 2:
Pick a very specific occupation of a country from Germany earlier in the war, or a part of Europe where German campaigns mostly match up in multiple countries (each country could have their own resistance (insurgents to the Germans). Not really sure this is savvy for 4 players, but a single country could work for 2 player COIN, like the Yugoslavia anti-partisan offensive.


Overall:
I think this would be a really cool time period to explore with the COIN system, even if we would have to move a little away from the actual counter insurgency a bit (though I think it can still fit).

Anyone else have thoughts on the matter? I honestly wish I knew more about the specific events dealing with stuff relate-able to COIN material for WWII so I could get some concrete ideas down. Maybe I'll start making the effort to read a lot more, and someone can point me in a direction of where I would even start for things related to anti-partisan campaigns for Germany. Is this doable?
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Brian Train
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Barry Setser
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has been making good progress on a WWII Yugoslavia COIN system game.
Four factions: Axis, Partisans, Chetniks, Ustashe.

COIN systems do not have to have four factions though: there are titles out or in preparation for 2, 3 and 6 players.

As for a continent-wide partisan/anti-partisan game, I think that is a bit of a stretch.
In most of the occupied countries the partisan movements were not strong or unified enough to materially affect the German occupation, except for short periods in certain areas.
This holds even for the Soviet Union partisan movement, where they were considered auxiliaries to standard military operations... valuable, but still auxiliaries.

I think only Yugoslavia qualifies as the only gameable exception to this.

That being said, I think there is a lot of potential for operational scale partisan/anti-partisan games.

Brian
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Paul Schroeder

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Brian, do you have this information just from hearsay, or is there a location to see upcoming games? The latest in the series I know of is People Power.
 
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Brian Train
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I'm not sure what you think I've said is hearsay.
So hearsay goes.

I have spent many hours in person and online with Barry Setser over the last 3 years, discussing and going over the points of his design.

I designed Colonial Twilight: The French-Algerian War, 1954-62 for 2 players and it came out in 2017; you've played it yourself.
People Power is for 3 players and is up for P500, as you pointed out.
All Bridges Burning: Red Revolt and White Guard in Finland, 1917-1918 by Vesa Arponen is for 3 players and is up for P500; I see you asked a question about it on its discussion area last month.

A 6-player COIN system game to cover the Syrian Civil War has been discussed in several threads on BGG recently, and pictures of it being trialled at conventions have surfaced.
The game has no title yet, and no BGG entry of course.

Anything else you'd like me to footnote?
My remarks on partisan movements are my opinion, not hearsay (though I do hear myself say it when I talk aloud in my study).

Brian
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Paul Schroeder

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You sound like you've taken offense to the word hearsay (and taken a false dichotomy quite literally), of which no offense was intended. If not, no worries.

My intent was thus: I am interested in hearing about these titles and provided links to information would be awesome to see what's going on with them. I have no idea how much you were/are involved with unreleased titles or how far they are along, and you did not indicate such in your previous post. Just that they have made progress on them. I know of the ones listed on this site, but you mentioned others of which there is almost no information available online.

I've messaged you directly about your games in the COIN series before, so I already know you're involvement in them, but I don't think that implies your direct involvement with others.

I'm very curious about the ones not listed on this site.
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Brian Train
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I don't like the word "hearsay"; sounds too much like "bullshit" in the circles I move in.

No offense meant I suppose, so none taken.

You know everything I know about these games now.
The Syrian Civil War one is an interesting wheeze, but they will have to take a very different approach to game mechanics - for one, you can't have a set faction order on the Event cards as is done with the 4-player games, since you would need 720 cards, one for each permutation.
I can't at the moment recall anyone's name attached to this project.

[ETA: it's Trevor Bender, and he had to postpone work on it to finish off his second expansion for Labyrinth]

Brian
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Richard Dyrda
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Brian is coy about HIS WWII COIN game that was just announced... LOL.

Immediate Pre-Order - congrats on the third game in the series Brian.
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Brian Train
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Well, the OP's question was about partisan/anti-partisan operations primarily, and his thoughts/examples related to Europe.
I answered in that vein.

China's War 1937-41 (no BGG entry yet) is not an anti-partisan game primarily (though the CCP is all guerrillas and there are some Nationalist guerrillas); it is more of an anti-occupation game, in that there are three Chinese factions facing an invading-occupying Japanese one, but those factions all have differing agendas.

Thanks for your pre-order!
I was gratified to see how quickly it made the 500 point: less than 72 hours.

Brian
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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how come there is no way of getting more information on China´s War?

No BGG or CSW folder or any prototype pics on the P500 page.

I would love to know more about this one
 
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Brian Train
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The game went up for P500 just on Wednesday.
I don't believe in starting BGG or CSW pages for my games until the item in question is actually getting lined up with a publisher; too much vapourware out there for me.

I just set up a topic on Consimworld:

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX/.1de0d6b6/0

GMT normally sets up BGG entries for games, but they were busy this week so they asked me to submit one.
Which I have done, but not approved yet.

The prototype is pretty schematic: some pink and blue lines on a map and the pieces are, well, cubes and cylinders and disks of various colours.

You can see one here :

https://brtrain.wordpress.com/2019/08/21/chinas-war-is-up-fo...

External image


Oh yeah, and the pink and yellow pieces are now green, how prototypical is that for you...

Most of the discussion about it so far has been here:

Item for Geeklist "Guide to GMT Games's COIN Series"

53 comments on the thread so far.

Brian
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Andrew Hughes
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I thought the partisans in Greece were also successful. So much so they went in to civil war mode a soon as the war started ending.
 
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